Is "Evil" defined by action, intent, both or neither?


Agonus

 

Posted

My thought was that the Jedi Council knew all along that the Chosen One was destined to destroy them and bring balance to the Force by tipping the scales in favor of the Dark Side.

However, they could not simply kill Anakin; that would have corrupted them. Also bringing balance to the Force was simply nature asserting itself; the most they could have done was delay the inevitable.

Thus, the hostility to Anakin. Qui-Gon did not know the whole story, and mistakenly beleived that bringing up Anakin would help the Light Side.

Anakin fulfilled his destiny partly by destroying the Jedi. For years, there were only two Sith and two Jedi.

Luke enters the picture, and the last of the Jedi die off, leaving only the Sith. Anakin fulfills his destiny at last by destroying both himself and the other Sith, leaving only Luke, who at that point is neither truly Jedi nor Sith, having embraced both the Light and understood the Dark Side ("Only now, at the last, do you truly understand.") Thus, at the end of Return of the Jedi, the Force is truly in balance at last.

The Force is not necessarily a force for good; it has a Dark Side. Anakin redeemed himself in the eyes of his son and mentor (and the audience); his becoming a Force Ghost is a sign of this in story terms, and shows that he was able to utilize the Light Side at the end.

I don't think it is so much that the Force forgave him as it is that he received a reward for a job well done.


Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails View Post
My thought was that the Jedi Council knew all along that the Chosen One was destined to destroy them and bring balance to the Force by tipping the scales in favor of the Dark Side.

However, they could not simply kill Anakin; that would have corrupted them. Also bringing balance to the Force was simply nature asserting itself; the most they could have done was delay the inevitable.

Thus, the hostility to Anakin. Qui-Gon did not know the whole story, and mistakenly beleived that bringing up Anakin would help the Light Side.

Anakin fulfilled his destiny partly by destroying the Jedi. For years, there were only two Sith and two Jedi.

Luke enters the picture, and the last of the Jedi die off, leaving only the Sith. Anakin fulfills his destiny at last by destroying both himself and the other Sith, leaving only Luke, who at that point is neither truly Jedi nor Sith, having embraced both the Light and understood the Dark Side ("Only now, at the last, do you truly understand.") Thus, at the end of Return of the Jedi, the Force is truly in balance at last.

The Force is not necessarily a force for good; it has a Dark Side. Anakin redeemed himself in the eyes of his son and mentor (and the audience); his becoming a Force Ghost is a sign of this in story terms, and shows that he was able to utilize the Light Side at the end.

I don't think it is so much that the Force forgave him as it is that he received a reward for a job well done.
Nail on the head!

I have actually always thought that instead of doing 1-3 in the Star Wars story, it would have been better for them to do Kyle Katarn's story from the Jedi Knight game series. It would certainly have been better than having to deal with Jar Jar Binks.


 

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Sorry for the double post. Net connection went loopy...


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by American_Valor View Post
That would assume that I felt Ozy was still a Hero. I don’t his actions and intent in the definition is evil.
I don't see exactly how you come to that conclusion. I would agree that his actions were evil: he killed millions of innocent people. However, his intent was to save the world from Mutually Assured Destruction*, which is certainly a good thing.

You keep saying that evil is both action and intent, but your argument points more towards "action OR intent, and if either is evil than you're damned for all eternity".

* Within the limits of the graphic novel/movie. It's possible that the nations of the world went back to their old ways later, but that's not within the scope of the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by American_Valor View Post
But does one good act wipe the slate clean even if its world saving?

We tend to want to forgive, and look for reasons too.
In several religions, everything is forgiven so long as you simply believe in $diety. Some others judge a person after death in a Stupid Neutral style.

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Originally Posted by Peterbilt View Post
One note on Star Wars, and this is all speculation since Lucas doesn't comment on this stuff, but Vader was destined to save the Empire but he couldn't do it alone, he needed Luke.
Anakin Skywalker wasn't destined to save the Empire. He was destined to "bring balance to the Force". At the time, there were hundreds or thousands of Jedi, even public Jedi school... and there were only a handful of Sith. For some reason, the Jedi interpreted "bring balance to the Force" as "destroy the Sith" - a more scrutinizing person would reason that it would mean "equalize the Jedi and Sith", which is exactly what Anakin did. He also did it the simplest way possible: it's much easier to slaughter existing Jedi ('the good guys') than it is to recruit more Sith ('the bad guys').


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

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I think we're getting onto dangerous ground here - it's possible someone could start accusing George Lucas of making the prequels enhance the story of the older movies.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Well, that's what we're discussing here: whether a good intent negates the karmic burden of evil results.


Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails View Post
Well, that's what we're discussing here: whether a good intent negates the karmic burden of evil results.
But wasn't his intent pure evil? Like he made them only to make money, and enslaved the poor fans who were herded into the theaters against their will time and time again?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Hmm, the love of filthy lucre is the root of all evil, but I'm not sure the pursuit of money is inherently evil...

...in any case, in the absence of telepathy, we can only assume that he intended nothing but entertainment for his fans.

On the other hand, the movie Howard the Duck showed that extradimensional Dark Overlords can possess people...


Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

Posted

The Star Wars story is interesting. It tells one of the oldest myths around: The universe was created, but there's somehow a schism that must be repaired. And so the universe creates its own solution to the problem: The Sacrificial Lamb. But the Lamb is raised from the dead in the end, and exalted.

But the twist in the end is that Anakin must repair the schism by perform some truly horrendous acts; and that's what makes the Star Wars story so different. In most tales of this nature, the Sacrificial Lamb brings peace, and lays down his life willingly after having lived a life fighting for the cause of good. Anakin's starts out that way, but it certainly isn't lived that way.

Nonetheless, he accomplishes what the Force created him to do. And make no mistake about it: he meets all the criteria of a messiah. Born of a virgin birth and the whole nine yards. He, however, falls to the dark side, and then, at the very end, turns against his dark master to overthrow him in an effort to save his son. In that one act, he redeems himself and restores balance to the Force (repairing the schism).

In my mind, his ascension as a Force Ghost was foreordained because the Force always intended for him to give his life to save his son. Jedi were always big on destiny and fate and looking into the future. And Anakin's ascension was just the Force's way of saying, "This is your reward for laying down your life, for being the Sacrificial Lamb we created to solve this problem."

In the Star Wars universe, The Force is God. Neither good nor evil, but struggling to maintain a precarious balance. And it'll do whatever's necessary to keep it in balance.

Just my two $currency.