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Pretty sure Claws is referring to the fact that RttC is directly related to willpowers regen, and therefore, survival. If you knock enough mobs out of the aura, taunted, or not, you may as well have just knocked his toggle off and floored his regen.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
RttC is not a tanker's only method of generating hate or the taunt multiplier. If things are knocked out of the taunt aura and they lose aggro on the tanker, it means the blaster attacked too soon, not that KB caused problems. A Fire blaster would be in danger under those conditions just as much as an energy blaster.
Inexperienced play is inexperienced play. People who cause scary KB are no more dangerous to the team than the tanker who stops at the front of the spawn and does not switch targets. Or the scrapper who jumps into a 2nd spawn and then runs back to the group trailing a herd of enemies. Or the emp who rocks the aura and fails to buff or the bubbler who does not position his DB well. Or the controller who uses his AoE immob while the spawn is all spread out. It is just that KB is very visible and obvious to most people. It is harder to realize that a team wiped because the back of the spawn was shooting the squishies. Or because the secondary aggro managers were not paying attention to their team. Or because the spawn failed to die fast enough becasue they were spread out (something KB can cause too). Or because the spawn failed to die fast enough because blasters were mezzed. I also think a lot of melee oriented characters get upset when their beautifully packed group gets scattered. I know it makes me sad when I play my fire/fire blaster. |
As for the OP. Team more. The more experience you have, the better you will get with it. You already show consideration for your team mates, just give it time. Just remember that not all teams will see how much you are helping, but I usually take that as a sign of how skilled the player is.
I love my Energy/Energy Blaster. It was originally an Energy/Elec, but I found that /Elec didn't mesh with how I play. Then I made it a Rad/Energy with the same name, and I found that I liked both sets, but not so much together.
Then I made an Energy/Energy, despite the warnings that kept me away from it for years. I like it a lot, and the KB management is relatively easy as long as you remember to aim for walls, objects, corners, whatever is nearby that will keep the enemy your KB distance as short as possible when there are melee or AoE centered characters on the team.
The KB has plenty of uses, though. Bouncing multiple enemies away from a controller who has made a few too many friends is easy. It also makes going into melee safer, since you can walk up and clobber something with Total Focus before it completely stands up. Heck, Power Thrust and Power Push alone will let you juggle bosses! It also makes using the snipe in the middle of a fight viable, if tricky. My Energy/Energy can wipe out a lieutenant with Power Push and Sniper Blast.
Too many alts to list.
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Originally Posted by hewhorocks
If there was an enhancement you could slot that changed KB to KD how much would the popularity of Energy rise?
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Originally Posted by Cade Lawson
They're mechanically the same thing. Different mags, as I recall.
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As for whether the popularity of Energy rising if there were such a thing - I doubt it.
What would happen would be team leaders who require that the Energy blaster MUST have such enhancements or be kicked from the team. Not all team leaders, just the ones who are taking shortcuts (avoiding calling them lazy because it could just be they haven't learned enough about mechanics).
Note that the only way to know if such enhancements were in place would be to observe the effects of blasts on the spawns, since no one has access to what enhancements are slotted on another player's character. Also, some spawns (Clockwork) are vulnerable to KB, so even slotting for KD might still KB the spawn.
Having those enhancements in my powers would mean that I lose my best mitigation in solo play - I want the bad guys way the heck over there, not at my feet - unless I spend the Infl to fully set up my Dual Builds as one for Solo and one for Teaming. For an IO'd Blaster, that gets a bit pricy.
Finally, as I said above, the Energy Blaster/Defender/Corruptor almost always gets the blame for KB even though there are other powersets that do KB, even a few Melee powersets have a KB or two in them. I don't think having enhancements would change that, because as I said above, there are Team Leaders who don't know enough about the mechanics of the game to understand anything more than "All KB is the Energy Blast character's fault".
P.S. Claws - thanks. Good to know I'm not a retarded monkey!
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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I would, but not for the reason you cite here.|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
It seems like everyone on teams hates her.
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Other people's issues with the character on teams can be a new level of challenge, something exciting and interesting that can drive you to try harder and use the knockback - random though it is - as a leverage point to be even better than normal. Sometimes that challenge just isn't wanted.
As for myself, I find that energy/energy does not produce any IO plans or options that I find really exciting barring for a huge Kinetic Crash build (which generates a lot of knockback).
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You do not get credit for this month's quota unless the idea is officially in the Suggestions Forum.
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Originally Posted by hewhorocks
If there was an enhancement you could slot that changed KB to KD how much would the popularity of Energy rise?
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It's not exactly a new idea.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
You do not get credit for this month's quota unless the idea is officially in the Suggestions Forum.
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I say that from experience. "Most" of the players that complain about KB (even well controlled KB) are melee oriented.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You say that like melee characters are the only ones affected by people throwing knockback around willy-nilly.
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| What about the controller who's target for their AoE hold just got knocked out of the mob they were trying to hold? Yay, a 4 minute recharge power used on ONE target! |
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| Or the Rad who's anchor gets sent flying, causing the rest of the mob to lose that debuff? (this one can cause a team wipe if that rad's debuffs are important to that particular team) |
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| The kin whose Transfusion failed to keep someone alive because their target was knocked out of range? |
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| Badly used knockback isn't just a problem for melee characters. Most of the time, a target being sent flying is no more than an annoyance for a scrapper or tank. It can be downright dangerous for some ranged characters if they rely on enemy targeted powers for their survival and usefulness. |
First is that while a mob is flying and getting up they deal absolutely no damage at all and apply no non-toggle secondary effects to the team. That's 100% damage mitigation. Soft capped defense won't stop 100% of a mob's damage output.
Second is that if the mob has flown far enough they still do no damage for another second or 2 as they switch from melee AI to ranged AI (this is why slotting FOR KB is important. If the mob doesn't fly far enough they don't switch AIs and just jump back into melee). Once they do switch they fire a ranged attack which on average does about 60% of the damage (provided it hits) that most melee attacks do. (That's the equivalent of 40% damage resistance).
Third is that the mob must take a couple more seconds to switch back to melee AI (since most melee favoring mobs only have 1 or 2 ranged powers to use) and then take the time to close the distance, again dealing absolutely no damage during this time. Time in which your friendly Energy/Energy has Torrent or Explosive (or both) ready to go again. That mob or spawn may never get back into melee range with a team member again.
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| Yes, a team should make adjustments to having an energy blaster along, but that doesn't mean the energy blaster should just go ahead and start knocking crap everywhere without consideration. The team should not have to change their entire strategy because one player refuses to change theirs. |
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| If the tank is Willpower or Invulnerability, unchecked knockback can get them killed. If the tank is Willpowerm, unchecked knockback can get the team killed. Rise to the Challenge is not a very good taunt aura, if something gets knocked out of it, it is very likely that the tank will have lost that target's agro before it even stands up. One Energy Torrent at the wrong time on a WP tank's mob can spell doom for a team running on higher difficulty settings. Especially if that team was relying on the tank to keep them alive. |
In either case the spawn won't last long enough for the WP player to get much use out of it as tightly packed mobs are prime candidates for an Aim + Build up + Nova. If the blaster takes the time to defiance buff the nuke after popping Aim and Build up, and targets the boss(es) in the spawn, that nuke will leave nothing of the spawn behind except the 5% of all targets that are always missed.
In my experience, most players that don't like KB have either, not taken the time to run the numbers and see just how much (and how good) mitigation from KB is, or they tend to prefer toggle mitigation heavy melee characters and have never tried to level up a squishy toon using only KB for mitigation. There are a few of course that just don't like the KB mechanic.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Yes, I'm biased against the set, and I have no problem admitting it.
It's because the vast majority of Energy blasters I have encountered in my 4 years playing consistently do all of the things I have mentioned and never seem to learn from their mistakes. The good Energy blasters, like the people in this thread, have been exceptionally rare. I have run across probably fewer than 20 players that knew how to use knockback without getting people killed. I would team with any one of them again any time they ask.
Energy Blast is actually one of the main reasons I seldom PuG anymore. I don't know if I just have bad luck, but it seems like I run into more than my share of the retarded monkeys with trays full of knockback. And they get really bent out of shape if you make any suggestions on how to use that knockback better, so my solution is just to avoid them whenever possible. That usually leads to me doing a lot of soloing, which is just fine with me.
I came to that conclusion after my scrapper got accused of leeching because the energy blaster kept targeting through me and never gave me a chance to actually attack anything. I know he was targeting through me because anything I targeted was immediately sent flying. Unfortunately, several experiences like that led to me having a dislike for the set. It's not fair to the people who actually know what they're doing with it, but it makes my play experience less frustrating by avoiding those situations.
Sorry, but my opinion is very unlikely to change on this. If you know how to use knockback, good for you, but I've encountered far too many idiots. Like I said in my first post in this thread, Energy Blast gets a bad rap from bad players, not because there's anything wrong with the set.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Went in to transfer my toon's money, save her costume, and then delete her. While in Pocket-D, I was asked to join a pug. I did and warned them that I was energy^2 and I'd try to control the kb.
Half through the first mish I asked if her kb was irritating/ridiculous. The tank responded that it wasn't a big deal as they were just crashing into walls [warehouse mish] and it wasn't irritating him. Another person said it was fun.
I'm not deleting her.
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*does a happy dance*
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Originally Posted by Postagulous
I'm not deleting her.
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Blueside Union: Starblayde (Blaster), Pax Imperia (Tanker), Pax Britannia (Defender)
Redside Union: Natasha Redshade (Stalker)
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Yay!|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
Went in to transfer my toon's money, save her costume, and then delete her. While in Pocket-D, I was asked to join a pug. I did and warned them that I was energy^2 and I'd try to control the kb.
Half through the first mish I asked if her kb was irritating/ridiculous. The tank responded that it wasn't a big deal as they were just crashing into walls [warehouse mish] and it wasn't irritating him. Another person said it was fun. I'm not deleting her. |
I hope you got the contact info for that tank - sounds like someone to team with again sometime!
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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Woot!!|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
Went in to transfer my toon's money, save her costume, and then delete her. While in Pocket-D, I was asked to join a pug. I did and warned them that I was energy^2 and I'd try to control the kb.
Half through the first mish I asked if her kb was irritating/ridiculous. The tank responded that it wasn't a big deal as they were just crashing into walls [warehouse mish] and it wasn't irritating him. Another person said it was fun. I'm not deleting her. |
Just remember not to slot for KB (incase you have it in there) Damage, damage, damage... and range.
Heck, my Nrgx2 on one build is half HO's from a few years ago.
"every defender needs to fight. I don't care if you have to use BRAWL!"
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It's a good idea not to delete the toon. The game changes with time. Back in the old days, I made characters with the worst combo, and some of them become the favorite nowadays.|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
Half through the first mish I asked if her kb was irritating/ridiculous. The tank responded that it wasn't a big deal as they were just crashing into walls [warehouse mish] and it wasn't irritating him. Another person said it was fun.
I'm not deleting her. |
The problem with kb is that there are minimal controls between kb and kd. Now, you can use kb enhancement to increase kb distance. To reduce kb distance or do a zero-distance kb (i.e. kd), there are only players-invented tricks like hover-blasting and knocking-to-the wall to effectively reduce the knockback distance. While there are situations that kb is a superior tactics, if you just want kd in some other times, extra time, thought and maneuvering are needed. We'll see if something will be done regarding this aspect in the future.
I logged on my NRG^2 blaster yesterday after a loooong time away (away from blueside in general, not just energy). It took a second to get back into the groove, but once I was, there were no problems with knockback.
It helps that it's a very single target build, and nobody complains about the flying boss if it's a flying dead boss.
All that is planned fails. All that is born dies.
All that is built crumbles. This will always be true.
But memories remain, And that is beautiful.
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I thought as much and I have to admit 2 1/2 years ago I shared your view. Then I saw an energy/energy blapper spraying enemies right and left on a team and experienced people not complaining (this was back in the days of SOs and before we had any idea what real numbers actually gave us). I wondered what it would be like to slot for maximum KB and go to town on the baddies, I picked up an old energy/energy blapper that I had created back in I4, dusted it off, slotted it up and was amazed at how survivable it was.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Yes, I'm biased against the set, and I have no problem admitting it.
It's because the vast majority of Energy blasters I have encountered in my 4 years playing consistently do all of the things I have mentioned and never seem to learn from their mistakes. The good Energy blasters, like the people in this thread, have been exceptionally rare. I have run across probably fewer than 20 players that knew how to use knockback without getting people killed. I would team with any one of them again any time they ask. Energy Blast is actually one of the main reasons I seldom PuG anymore. I don't know if I just have bad luck, but it seems like I run into more than my share of the retarded monkeys with trays full of knockback. And they get really bent out of shape if you make any suggestions on how to use that knockback better, so my solution is just to avoid them whenever possible. That usually leads to me doing a lot of soloing, which is just fine with me. I came to that conclusion after my scrapper got accused of leeching because the energy blaster kept targeting through me and never gave me a chance to actually attack anything. I know he was targeting through me because anything I targeted was immediately sent flying. Unfortunately, several experiences like that led to me having a dislike for the set. It's not fair to the people who actually know what they're doing with it, but it makes my play experience less frustrating by avoiding those situations. Sorry, but my opinion is very unlikely to change on this. If you know how to use knockback, good for you, but I've encountered far too many idiots. Like I said in my first post in this thread, Energy Blast gets a bad rap from bad players, not because there's anything wrong with the set. |
That toon has since become my main. I've also rolled an Energy/Elec/Fire with maximized AoE KB powers that's designed to be played at range. In this time scrappers have lost their appeal to me. (They are too easy to play, even more so since the addition of IO Sets to the game). I prefer squishies that can duke it out in melee range just for the challenge.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Congrats ! And sorry for not coming to this thread sooner to offer encouragement.|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
Went in to transfer my toon's money, save her costume, and then delete her. While in Pocket-D, I was asked to join a pug. I did and warned them that I was energy^2 and I'd try to control the kb.
Half through the first mish I asked if her kb was irritating/ridiculous. The tank responded that it wasn't a big deal as they were just crashing into walls [warehouse mish] and it wasn't irritating him. Another person said it was fun. I'm not deleting her. |
My Main Blaster is Energy. I LOVE the graphics and the visceral feel of the set.
All that other stuff regarding teams and how to play them while on a team is something I just consider the challenge of playing the powerset. If my team doesnt like the powerset, there is always another team, or solo work. Cause I will not give up something as cool as energy blasts.
If you want an example from the other side, I love the Radiation emission set as a whole, but playing it on a team can be... trying. But I would not jump on my teammates for dropping my anchors or KB-ing them across the map. In that situation, I just challenge myself to anticipate my teammates (outsmart them if you will) and see how long I can keep a debuff toggle up under fire.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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My dislike is completely subjective, and if I implied it was anything else it was not intended. Like I said in the post you quoted, there ARE a few players I have met that play an Energy blaster that I would team with any time they ask. But teaming with any random Energy blaster has left a bad taste in my mouth. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I thought as much and I have to admit 2 1/2 years ago I shared your view. Then I saw an energy/energy blapper spraying enemies right and left on a team and experienced people not complaining (this was back in the days of SOs and before we had any idea what real numbers actually gave us). I wondered what it would be like to slot for maximum KB and go to town on the baddies, I picked up an old energy/energy blapper that I had created back in I4, dusted it off, slotted it up and was amazed at how survivable it was.
That toon has since become my main. I've also rolled an Energy/Elec/Fire with maximized AoE KB powers that's designed to be played at range. In this time scrappers have lost their appeal to me. (They are too easy to play, even more so since the addition of IO Sets to the game). I prefer squishies that can duke it out in melee range just for the challenge. |
I completely understand that it is not the powerset that makes me feel this way, rather, it is the number of bad players playing the powerset. If it sounded like I was bashing the set itself, that was also not intended, I thought I made it pretty clear that it was bad players I was referring to. But, it may not have been as clear as I thought.
As far as scrappers being too easy to play: I ramp up the difficulty and do things with my scrappers I wouldn't even DREAM of doing with a blaster. RWZ Challenge, pylon soloing, soloing AVs with no temps and no inspirations, and other assorted "that's not supposed to be possible!" stuff. I aspire to do something as impressive as what Iggy Kamakaze did, the guy pulled off a Master of ITF with his Katana/WP scrapper...................solo. I don't want to do it for bragging rights, just to push the envelope of what I can accomplish.
I have 2 level 50 blasters and they couldn't be more different from each other. One is a Fire/Fire that is currently set up for PvP. The other is a Sonic/Devices. I'm also currently leveling an Ice/Electric and a Rad/Mental. I don't like repeating powersets, the only ones I have doubled are WP and regen on scrappers (2 each), and Dark Melee (one of each AT that can have it)
My distaste for energy blast has led to me not having one myself, but I may roll one eventually. It isn't something I'm interested in doing right now though.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I might have friended him. I remember the name, Smoof Like Baby.|
Originally Posted by Ad Astra
Yay!
I hope you got the contact info for that tank - sounds like someone to team with again sometime! |
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I LOVE the graphics and the visceral feel of the set.
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Just an aside: Energy Blasters seem to get all the KB hate; but every Tom, Dick, and Harry is using the Nemi staff KB attacks all the time and no one ever complains about that. If someone complains about your KB give 'em hell when they grab the Nemi staff, all's fair.
KB is 100% mitigation. So what if the scrapper has to move to finish defeating a mob, that's what scrappers do. If they don't like chasing mobs use the Nemi Staff
How come no one complains when a mob runs away? Is it the controllers fault? The Tank not taunting it back? Does the Tanks/Scrappers damage aura cause scatter?
It' a viable game mechanic that helps a blaster/defender survive.
Noght 50 Scrapper Broadsword/Invulnerability
Fire Umbra 50 Brute Dark Melee/Fire Aura
Impulse Cry 50 Blaster Sonic/Energy
Internist 50 Mastermind Poison/Thugs
Ice Omega 50 Corrupter Ice/Radiation
Prickly Heat 50 Dominator Plant/Fire
Champion Server
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The Nem staff is a single target KB on a fairly long recharge. |
Originally Posted by Noght
Just an aside: Energy Blasters seem to get all the KB hate; but every Tom, Dick, and Harry is using the Nemi staff KB attacks all the time and no one ever complains about that. If someone complains about your KB give 'em hell when they grab the Nemi staff, all's fair.
KB is 100% mitigation. So what if the scrapper has to move to finish defeating a mob, that's what scrappers do. If they don't like chasing mobs use the Nemi Staff How come no one complains when a mob runs away? Is it the controllers fault? The Tank not taunting it back? Does the Tanks/Scrappers damage aura cause scatter? It' a viable game mechanic that helps a blaster/defender survive. |
Energy Blast has 2 AoE KB powers, most of the time it's those powers that are getting the hate.
Damage auras generally don't cause scatter. In the tank's case, their damage aura is usually their taunt aura too, so if anything it prevents scatter. Scrapper auras don't have the taunt component, but generally if nothing else is piling on a lot of damage they'll focus their hate on the scrapper.
AFAIK the only damage aura that causes scatter is Hot Feet.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
You know what's funny? In the past few weeks I've received more complaints about my Fire/Fire Blaster using Rain of Fire than my Energy/Energy Blaster's KB.
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Been there, done that too. There are only so many AVs in game, only so many times I can solo a pylon (did it with my energy/energy using accolades, temps, and insps), I've succeeded in the RWZ challange with all my scrappers, all my blasters, a few defenders, and my Plant/TA/Power troller. That stuff gets old quickly for me but I always come back to the fun of obliterating massive amounts of enemies in every mission with a blaster that has 7% total defense and 30% total resistance to smash/lethal only.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
My dislike is completely subjective, and if I implied it was anything else it was not intended. Like I said in the post you quoted, there ARE a few players I have met that play an Energy blaster that I would team with any time they ask. But teaming with any random Energy blaster has left a bad taste in my mouth.
I completely understand that it is not the powerset that makes me feel this way, rather, it is the number of bad players playing the powerset. If it sounded like I was bashing the set itself, that was also not intended, I thought I made it pretty clear that it was bad players I was referring to. But, it may not have been as clear as I thought. As far as scrappers being too easy to play: I ramp up the difficulty and do things with my scrappers I wouldn't even DREAM of doing with a blaster. RWZ Challenge, pylon soloing, soloing AVs with no temps and no inspirations, and other assorted "that's not supposed to be possible!" stuff. I aspire to do something as impressive as what Iggy Kamakaze did, the guy pulled off a Master of ITF with his Katana/WP scrapper...................solo. I don't want to do it for bragging rights, just to push the envelope of what I can accomplish. I have 2 level 50 blasters and they couldn't be more different from each other. One is a Fire/Fire that is currently set up for PvP. The other is a Sonic/Devices. I'm also currently leveling an Ice/Electric and a Rad/Mental. I don't like repeating powersets, the only ones I have doubled are WP and regen on scrappers (2 each), and Dark Melee (one of each AT that can have it) My distaste for energy blast has led to me not having one myself, but I may roll one eventually. It isn't something I'm interested in doing right now though. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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What? I don't know what I'd do without BU+Aim+Rain[of procs]+Fball+Blaze or Breath or whatever next.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
You know what's funny? In the past few weeks I've received more complaints about my Fire/Fire Blaster using Rain of Fire than my Energy/Energy Blaster's KB.
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Did they not like the sound?
OP: Don't delete your Nrgx2
Keep it, slot it, love it.
I have one at lvl 50 still go back to him for the Pew-pew-pew, mass damage, mass KB, NRG Ball that he is.
If others have a problem with the KB... pshhh, keep on shooting and doing the damage that you can do. Just use it to your advantage.
Also: just don't shoot 1st with your Mini-AoE's.
"every defender needs to fight. I don't care if you have to use BRAWL!"