I'm looking for more immersive content.
By
ClawsandEffect,
Posted on: 2010-02-20 17:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Some of this seriously needs to be resurrected, especially Blueside.|
Originally Posted by konshu
If you ask me, the whole notion of engaging the audience with storytelling vanished from the design before CoH was published. I think the notion was originally there, but it was cut and we've not seen hide nor hair of it since.
If you pick through the bones of the lore in the old zones, you'll find that someone was thinking about how and why things happened. For instance, there's Ingelbert Maahs, who became Igneous, the Magma Master, in the Cavern of Transcendence. There's the mysterious plot that led to The Hollowing, the questionable fate of Grendel, what I believe is the introduction of the Coralax long before CoV, and so on. However, the storytelling aspects of the game design were insufficiently developed prior to publication, with too much emphasis being placed on large blocks of text in the mouths of contacts and tucked away in clues. Players on a team could not easily share in the storytelling process. Instead of an adventure game, what developed was an emphasis upon almost arcade-like action. Now I think CoH has great action ... it's a strength of the game. But storytelling really should have been there too, and it's a shame the developers have looked the other way all these years and failed to improve upon that part of the gaming experience. If you feel inclined, give my architect missions a shot. We've got the same limitations in AE storytelling that we have in the rest of the game, but I've tried to use what leverage I could to tell story in a way intended to make the story more accessible for teams and - hopefully - a step or two closer to being more immersive. You can find my arcs listed under @Khonshu (different spelling from what I have as my forum name). |
The Hollows is great, but it's still a half-told tale. It really doesn't explain about the Igneous (And don't talk to me about the Cavern Trial. That thing it horrible and punishing.)
Faultline is a great example of a 'Finished' zone. It has the central plot; the fate of Faultline himself. And it makes you feel a Hero, for thwarting not just Arachnos but the Lost and Sky Raiders as well, AND you help uncover the truth.
Blueside, in my opinion anyway, needs some serious story TLC. Redside has stories in spades. Blueside has some good ones. Some. And they aren't exactly intuitive to find, bar Hollows and Faultline.
I'll harp on about it till my chassis rusts; a game needs to have a solid basis to have new shinies added onto. No solid core, then you can have all the shinies you want; it will still collpase. End of.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Go to Ouroborus, do "Fall of the 5th".
Soloable, (so you can take your time and read everything), 5 EBs, (so some very tough fights), 1 cutscene, Very Lore Relevant, and the final battle is one of the most epic things a single player can do in this game.
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Mender Silos task force: check, check, and check. I read one player's comment that deemed this task force "the ultimate pay-off" for playing CoH. Yep, good stuff.
| how do I get to the good stuff? Does it even exist? And by "good stuff" I'm talking about missions where you get to do things like interact with the major characters of the game. Custom missions that aren't in the same warehouse, tunnel, or research facility that i've seen 1000 times before, killing the same old enemies, etc |
Hess task force?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
See, I create my own stories within the context of the game.
My main, Claws and Effect, was a scientist working on cybernetic limb replacements for accident victims and amputees. At some point the Crey corporation got wind of his research and decided they wanted it. Since he wouldn't sell it to them, they blew up his lab. That caused the amputation of his arms at the shoulders and his legs at the knees. He had a set of working prototype limbs that were not stored at the lab, so he had them grafted on by Rick Davies and started up a personal quest for vengeance on Crey.
The part that I added into the Crey storyline as it exists in the game is that Crey's power armor and some of their Protector technology was stolen from my main character. Since they never really go into where all of that came from in great detail, it is a hole that I could write myself into.
All of my other characters spin off from that basic storyline somehow or another. I made my characters an integral part of the world by writing my own story connecting them to it. It makes me feel like what I do matters, whether I'm saving the world or running a scanner mission for my character's own reasons (like, the person you're rescuing has information I need to set Crey up for a fall, or something similar)
Since it's an MMO, they can't make the storyline TOO immersive, because not everyone plays MMOs for the same reason. If the storyline was deeply immersive, it would lead to a lot of linear gameplay, which is a BAD thing for a game relying on monthly subscriptions. If a player feels like they "beat" the game, they will stop subscribing to it. An MMO can't survive if the gameplay feels too linear, and like they're leading you by the nose to the conclusions that they want you to reach.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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This is true, but this is in keeping with heroes. In City of Heroes, you're often reacting to criminals. Heroes aren't necessarily proactive as a rule. But even the very earliest content introduces you to storylines that are IMO much more immersive and frankly much more substantial than the nonsense redside.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
For CoH, I don't think there is one coherent story line as in CoV. My feeling is that the stories in CoH are to introduce you various mob groups, where they come from and what they are doing. Since the stories are about the mobs, not really about you as in CoV, I think it's not as immersive. But if you like crime fighting, it should be ok. If you stick to the contacts of a specific origin (contacts are divided into different origins), you'll discover some interesting things. Usually, the low level mob groups only have some stupid plots, things do get more sophisticated at higher levels.
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For example, in the 1-20 game, heroes advance through the stories of the Vahzilok, Clockwork, Trolls, Outcasts, Skulls & Hellions. Basically in these early levels you work through the entire story of those groups and get to defeat their leaders. This is told through several story arcs and is a very cohesive story. In addition, you learn bits and pieces of the story of major villain groups like Arachnos, the Council, the Lost/Rikti, and the Circle of Thorns.
This content is vastly better IMO that the ridiculous "Destined One" nonsense. It's also more immersive IMO, because there's no way that the Rogue Isles could even function if the things that the story arcs tell you is going on were actually going on.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
#1 Make a character you care about. Don't make them flavour of the month, or best synergistic power sets, etc. Make someone. Then give'em powers, and they make the choices that make sense to them at the time.
Yes, Dr. Trevor Seaborn gives the Fortune Teller mission, but Comatose doesn't like doctors, given how he got to be Comatose in the first place!
Rather than a move to 50, treat the game as a story, the adventures of $your hero, in Paragon City. So, then, the text matters, because it's their life.
www.paragonwiki.com is a great source of information for this game.
New or returning to the game? Want advice from experienced players who want to help YOU?
The Mentor Project: Part of the New Player Council.
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*checks watch* Huh... Still some time left before the apocalypse. Odd that I completely agree with you on all points without a hint of contention |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
This is true, but this is in keeping with heroes. In City of Heroes, you're often reacting to criminals. Heroes aren't necessarily proactive as a rule. But even the very earliest content introduces you to storylines that are IMO much more immersive and frankly much more substantial than the nonsense redside.
For example, in the 1-20 game, heroes advance through the stories of the Vahzilok, Clockwork, Trolls, Outcasts, Skulls & Hellions. Basically in these early levels you work through the entire story of those groups and get to defeat their leaders. This is told through several story arcs and is a very cohesive story. In addition, you learn bits and pieces of the story of major villain groups like Arachnos, the Council, the Lost/Rikti, and the Circle of Thorns. This content is vastly better IMO that the ridiculous "Destined One" nonsense. It's also more immersive IMO, because there's no way that the Rogue Isles could even function if the things that the story arcs tell you is going on were actually going on. |
That kind of agreement seems unusual...But, yes, very much this. I don't know why they decided the approach taken in City of Villains was superior, but it resulted in utter chaos and one of the WORST storylines in the entire game. It's somewhere between the embarrassing explanation about Origins and Maria Jenkins' poorly written misspellings. Blue-side, you play through the story of the world, which creates a certain sense of familiarity, of environment that is simply absent red-side. It makes me... "Feel" the world, as I just know so much about it. And, yes, I know a lot of the storylines are unfinished, but the ones that are really do add a lot of background.
For instance, were it not for Division: Line, I'd have never gotten a decent understanding of the motivations and interactions within the Rikti faction. City of Villains just throws out important plot points like it dropped its pizza pie, face down, and even then there's nothing that leads up to them. The "immersive" stories villain-side almost always come down to "Go there, do that and I'll pay you." At least hero-side, it's always a case of "Go there, do that, and here's why..." Yes, it's usually a lame excuse, but at least it's some excuse beyond MONEY!!! And a lot of the times these missions actually drop hints for storylines later on. Red-side, things are sort of there and you sort of go do stuff and maybe learn something about the contacts, but...
Why are the Luddites in Aeon City? It's inferred. Why are the Clockwork in Cap Au Diable? It's explained in a single throw-away line that most people miss. Who are the Goldbrickers? Nothing really happens with them. Why are the Hellions in Oil Spill? They're a Paragon City gang. Never explained. What happened to "Old Man Marcone?" Never explained, only lightly alluded to in various Marcone gangsters' info. What happened to Barakuda? I assumed Mako's story would reveal, but it doesn't. What's the deal with the Fab? Never explained, not that I've seen. What's the deal with all the Longbow in Nerva? I've heard hearsay from people, but never seen it explained. What are these Cap Au Diable Demons things? Never explained, possibly lightly alluded to. Why is there a Sky Raider rig off the coast of Sharkhead Island? Its existence is mentioned, but I've not seen much done with it. What's the deal with Villa Requin? There's lots of family there, but it's never explained? Is Johnny Sonata working with the Family? Never explained, but I suppose we're supposed to guess. What are the Nerva Spectral Daemons waiting for? Never explained.
City of Villains has only a VERY few interesting stories to its name, largely surrounding Aeon's time travel, the Arachnoids, the Wailers and a lot of original work regarding the Mu and Oranbegans. But very much everything else is meaningless mercenary work that's actually LESS interesting than saving a building from the Skulls.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Quote downsized, but I agree with the whole thing.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
See, I create my own stories within the context of the game.
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Basically, some of the most fun I've had with City of Heroes is what I like to call "rewriting the game." Very often, especially in City of Villains, I meet a mission that my character "wouldn't do," or at least not in the way prescribed. I can either roll my eyes and do it anyway, or I can get creative and try to rewrite some dialogue to explain WHY that character is taking orders like that.
Marshal Brass is my favourite for this one. I had a character who's basically a minion of another of my characters, and at the end of each mission, I was running radio conversations with her boss through my head at the end of each mission. That way, it made sense for her to do this AND it made things rather a lot more interesting.
I generally try to avoid filling in or contradicting canon wherever possible, but I have no qualms with rewriting dialogues to make my characters come off as more interesting as long as the result is still the same - mission gets accepted, mission gets done. Dialogue trees might solve that problem, but they'd need to be of a Mass Effect level of complexity vs. singularity of outcome. That's actually the beauty of Mass Effect - for the most part, the game makes it FEEL like you have a choice, and it does reward you with points for pretending to choose, but very, very rarely does anything REAL happen. You can piss off a character, you can get someone killed or not, but the big plot points do not change. Not by much, anyway, not right up until the end. Dialogue trees of that kind might solve my need to rewrite my own conversations, but I doubt we'll ever see that.
In the mean time, yeah, this is kind of like the old games we used to play once upon a time - it takes a little bit of imagination.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Uh, with respect Sam you seem to be contradicting yourself in those last two posts. On one hand you're lambasting Villains for never explaining anything, but then you say you rewrite and fill in gaps that you disagree with anyway. Surely very few things being outright explained lends itself far better to your latter need?
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Which is precisely why the Dev's put the 'disable earning XP' option into the game.
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Originally Posted by Prime_Nighthawk
Part of the problem is that usually I'm not doing my own missions but rather someone else's in a big group. So I outlevel my contacts and I just get used to not reading the story.
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http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
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I explain away motivations, I do not explain away plot points. City of Villains' motivations for villains to do anything suck. It's always either money or, alternately, "or I'll bash your head with this rock." Neither of these works for me, so from time to time I re-write myself refusing money and doing things for other reasons, like favours, intelligence, whim or basically anything else that may be self-serving. Or not self-serving, as the case may be for a few of my villains.|
Originally Posted by poptart_fairy
Uh, with respect Sam you seem to be contradicting yourself in those last two posts. On one hand you're lambasting Villains for never explaining anything, but then you say you rewrite and fill in gaps that you disagree with anyway. Surely very few things being outright explained lends itself far better to your latter need?
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However, I could forgive crappy motivations if the stories they led me to were interesting, but they aren't. The Shadowy Figure leads on busywork for Arachnos, Operative Ruthger leads me on busywork for Arachnos, Lt. Demitrovich leads me on busywork for Arachnos, Timothy Raymond leads me on busywork against the Rikti, Kelly Uqua leads me on busywork for the Rikti, Darla Mavis leads me on a completely pointless vendetta and even Psymon Omega basically leads me around to do odd jobs with little meaning. Outside of Timothy dropping the biggest secret the Rikti on Earth have as an afterthought, this is NOT A STORY. It does nothing for the plot other than earning me Arachnos tokens, it gives me no lore that will matter beyond its own little arc and, above all, it doesn't really make me feel like a villain so much so as like an errand boy.
Hero-side is, at least, a lot more like reading a book. Villain-side is like reading a book if the book was criminally short, terribly boring and nothing interesting ever happened in it. "So I busted up a Longbow base. Not like anyone cared. It won't come up later, it won't make a lick of difference and I didn't learn anything interesting from it, other than that Longbow exist. Great." City of Heroes give me lore. It gives me a story. It's the little cutscenes between missions in WarCraft 3 or StarCraft. City of Villains is like the missions themselves - just a load of ticking objectives off a list, mining for lumber, chopping down gold mines, micromanaging the micromanagement and basically all the boring crap that doesn't help with immersion. In order for someone to be immersed in the story, the story itself has to be interesting, and I don't find sequences of events to someone else's unmentioned end to be interesting.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've always thought adding the Clockwork to Cap was a mistake. I think there's a bit of rationale saying the Cap demon possesses them, but they have the same hierarchy, same behavior as they do under the Clockwork King, so I'm a little confused about it.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Why are the Clockwork in Cap Au Diable? It's explained in a single throw-away line that most people miss.
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(Of course, I'm also confused by the Clockwork King's use of them too.)
Is there more to the story?
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What you're saying doesn't make any sense to me. What I'm talking about is upgrading the production values of the game to be a more cinematic experience instead of having the gameplay be so generic with a bunch of text to fill in the gaps. How would that make the game linear? |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
All of my other characters spin off from that basic storyline somehow or another. I made my characters an integral part of the world by writing my own story connecting them to it. It makes me feel like what I do matters, whether I'm saving the world or running a scanner mission for my character's own reasons (like, the person you're rescuing has information I need to set Crey up for a fall, or something similar)
Since it's an MMO, they can't make the storyline TOO immersive, because not everyone plays MMOs for the same reason. If the storyline was deeply immersive, it would lead to a lot of linear gameplay, which is a BAD thing for a game relying on monthly subscriptions. If a player feels like they "beat" the game, they will stop subscribing to it. An MMO can't survive if the gameplay feels too linear, and like they're leading you by the nose to the conclusions that they want you to reach. |
Basically you're saying keep the game generic and repetitive, because people might quit if it was immersive and thus linear? I don't get any of that logic. The thing about MMO's is that they (generally) are continually updated. So there shouldn't be a real conclusion unless the game is ending.
They can only add so much of a cinematic experience before it stops being a game and more like an interactive movie. I personally don't like games that overuse cut scenes to tell the story. A lot of people feel the same way. Most of the playerbase would probably avoid content that forces a bunch of cut scenes on them, interrupting the action. Since most people would likely avoid it, what is the devs' incentive for doing it?
If you've ever run an ITF you'll probably notice that when the cut scene rolls around, people start getting impatient and want to skip past it...but they can't.
That's what I meant about people not all playing MMOs for the same reason. You want an immersive cinematic experience, most people I've encountered in game just want to kill crap. The main reason there aren't more cut scenes already is that the majority of the playerbase doesn't care. They would rather their action not be interrupted than have something cramming a story down their throat. MMOs are designed to appeal to the widest market possible, the devs are aware that players who actively RP their characters and have a great interest in the underlying story behind the events in the game are a minority. They aren't going to force a bunch of cinematics (which take time and resources to produce) on a playerbase when the majority of said playerbase doesn't want them.
As far as the linear goes. I don't like the fact that my villain characters are basically Arachnos flunkies, I pretend to be a mercenary doing it for money or some other such thing. If they introduced a bunch of cinematic storyline, do you really think they AREN'T going to contnue the story that they already have in place on villainside? That would essentially FORCE you to pay attention to a story that you may not like. If tey forced me to sit through a bunch of crap that basically says my character is a flunkie working for Arachnos I doubt I'd playvillain side anymore.
I simply prefer to create my OWN story within the game. If the devs did all the story for me, I'd get bored with it pretty quick.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
This thread is relevant to my interests
I agree with the OP that the game needs more immersiveness. I disagree that this should result in added voice acting as that is _terribly_ expensive and would most likely lead to much smaller content packages (or much higher prices) and as that other superhero MMO showed, making a small amount of better produced encounter really doesn't satisfy most players. Also, superhero voice acting is hard to do without sounding _really_ lame.
Things I'd like to see that would be expensive to code but cheap in "content time" (because I'm a software developer so I always look for a code solution)
- Auto-generated civilians in missions (as needed).
- A behaviour matrix for the civilians and critters that is applied globally rather than scripted by content people. (Eg. Scientists in a lab rooms walk slowly occasionally stopping to do the clipboard emote, until aggro'd)
- Random, appropriate, destructible objects in missions that civilians use as interaction targets (read magic books, type on computers, read screens)
- Real, random map generators that make architecturally sensible layouts for the building you're in. Just think, you could allow AE authors to save the random seed for a given map so they could reuse it.
- Re-use player hero/villain models/powers/names as the opponent in things like bank raids (allow the owner-player to make their character not available for this feature) this looks more possible if I17 does use a "mirror version" of your current character.
- Harking back to the pre-beta days. I'd like to see effect if I go on an all out rampage against a specific group (One of the most satisfying things about Halo was the NPC getting more and more scared of you). Actual attrition numbers used for rewards, like badges, but giving out something useful, like inspirations (see #5 in content heavy)
Content-heavy things I'd like to see are:
- More buildings in the city zones with actual insides (that fit the bounds of the outside, gods that annoys me) like the Council base in the RWZ or the AE building. Preferably with set-piece action going on in there. Maybe some hunt missions set in specific bits, wandering EB's like the Ballista.
- Contacts actually doing things rather than standing on the spot 24/7 (I'd prefer to see most supers inside city-buildings, like a hq) they feel more like vending machines than people, why aren't I interrupting Posi doing research rather than standing on the street.
- Set pieces in city zones that start a mission chain.
- Good combat music (It'd pay for that expansion) and the resolution of the "music embedded as sound effects" on many maps.
- Optional cutscenes for reward ceremonies, maybe at the end of a TF/SF or a mission chain, optional because they take place in the mission and exiting would just take you out of it. These things could be re-used easily
- Outside the City hall with <NPC> giving you a medal(badge) using <TEXT> from a random lot of sub-phrases
- In a hospital with a doctor and <RESCUED NPC> telling you how grateful they are and how much they hate/fear <NPCGROUP>
- In a shop/bank. Thanking you for preventing the theft.
Overworld interaction is generally crap, by the by. And the problem is that when most people try to suggest improving it, inevitably it goes into the realm of more experience of more annoying, obtrusive zone events. No, thank you. What we need is more interaction with the world. I keep recycling the old idea of random, one-off contacts, just people in the street or targets of opportunity, that show up in different locations and can offer a one-off mission to anyone who passes by. For instance, a man standing near a manhole could flag you down and ask you to save his wife who was dragged down by zombies, or an armoured truck parked outside a building could suggest there's serious money inside for the stealing. It doesn't have to be grand. In fact, it doesn't have to be bigger than your typical casino map. Just something in the overworld which makes it feel like there is more going on than what your waypoint is pointing to.
Buildings and their insides are another big thing. If I were designing a game, I'd actually try to give each building its own unique inside that depends on the building you're going inside, not on the mission that sends you there. In essence, you could learn what each building's inside looks like, which would make the world feel a lot more... Real, I suppose. At least to me. As it is right now, mission doors are just portals to the netherworld which transport you into what may as well be a dungeon snaking through the bedrock. These instances don't have to fit the outside of the building, but as long as we can associate a certain inside with a certain outside, we can have a sense of "Oh, I'm being sent to THAT building? Yeah, I know that one. Mind that large room on the second floor." As it is right now, we may as well just hit a button and teleport inside our missions, because that's what we do anyway - find a door and teleport to a completely unrelated inside.
In a lesson taken from Oni, having a building with an inside that not just matches the outside, but actually conforms to the building's shape and shell while showing or describing all inside space does a LOT for the feeling of immersion. Knowing that I'm inside that building I saw coming in and looking out of that one window I spotted right over there and WOAH! I really went up high! That's a big plus for me. The less the insides of buildings feel like dungeons and the more they feel like buildings, the better the game feels. For instance, I know where the PTS is, and every time I'm sent there, I know what to expect. It feels like a place as real as Atlas Plaza or the Portal Corp yard. Do you honestly know where the Revenant Hero Project HQ is?
All of our buildings, even the sky scrapers, are too small for real floor space to be put inside them. Floors are too low (like, 7 feet, if that), sides are too narrow and their footprint is TINY. But even if the insides have to be larger than the outsides, having a specific inside to link with a specific outside would make the world feel a lot more believable.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Now this I could go along with. |
Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
This thread is relevant to my interests
I agree with the OP that the game needs more immersiveness. I disagree that this should result in added voice acting as that is _terribly_ expensive and would most likely lead to much smaller content packages (or much higher prices) and as that other superhero MMO showed, making a small amount of better produced encounter really doesn't satisfy most players. Also, superhero voice acting is hard to do without sounding _really_ lame. Things I'd like to see that would be expensive to code but cheap in "content time" (because I'm a software developer so I always look for a code solution)
Content-heavy things I'd like to see are:
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Something that makes the game world feel more realistic without adding a bunch of cinematic cutscenes that may or may not be relevant to any particular character.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Sorry, but this is completely misrepresenting the situation. First off, the two are NOT mutually exclusive. Adding story-driven content would in no way detract from your ability to RP or "create your own story". Secondly, the main issue is how the story is told rather than if it is being told. | I simply prefer to create my OWN story within the game. If the devs did all the story for me, I'd get bored with it pretty quick. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
They can only add so much of a cinematic experience before it stops being a game and more like an interactive movie. I personally don't like games that overuse cut scenes to tell the story. A lot of people feel the same way. Most of the playerbase would probably avoid content that forces a bunch of cut scenes on them, interrupting the action. Since most people would likely avoid it, what is the devs' incentive for doing it?
If you've ever run an ITF you'll probably notice that when the cut scene rolls around, people start getting impatient and want to skip past it...but they can't. That's what I meant about people not all playing MMOs for the same reason. You want an immersive cinematic experience, most people I've encountered in game just want to kill crap. The main reason there aren't more cut scenes already is that the majority of the playerbase doesn't care. They would rather their action not be interrupted than have something cramming a story down their throat. MMOs are designed to appeal to the widest market possible, the devs are aware that players who actively RP their characters and have a great interest in the underlying story behind the events in the game are a minority. They aren't going to force a bunch of cinematics (which take time and resources to produce) on a playerbase when the majority of said playerbase doesn't want them. As far as the linear goes. I don't like the fact that my villain characters are basically Arachnos flunkies, I pretend to be a mercenary doing it for money or some other such thing. If they introduced a bunch of cinematic storyline, do you really think they AREN'T going to contnue the story that they already have in place on villainside? That would essentially FORCE you to pay attention to a story that you may not like. If tey forced me to sit through a bunch of crap that basically says my character is a flunkie working for Arachnos I doubt I'd playvillain side anymore. |
So many things wrong here. First off, nobody is asking for 30 minute long cut-scenes. Nor are we asking for EVERY mission to be laden with them. At most this would be a minimal annoyance for some who don't like it. I highly doubt that you've done thorough polling on what players like and do not like, so lets stop with the whole "the majority of the players" stuff.
"[players that] have a great interest in the underlying story behind the events in the game are a minority."
Have you considered that people may not pay attention to it or take interest in it BECAUSE of the very inadequacies that I'm complaining about? It's a circular argument. People don't like it because it isn't well done, therefore lets not improve it because people don't like it.
As far as Villain content, there are inherent difficulties in developing story content for villains. I'll just say that you knew going into it that Arachnos would be heavily involved, and there are options to avoid it if playing along with Arachnos is a problem for you.
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^This. Absolutely this. Blueside just feels so bland after playing redside. |
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
Play more redside.
CoH has some good arcs, but they're buried in a lot of (frequently defeat all) filler missions that can quickly become boring. CoV arcs are usually shorter and faster moving, and the contacts are mostly well written with actual personalities. Seer Marino and Marshall Brass are probably the earliest examples of contacts who give out mission arcs that really matter. They're both in the 15-20 range and I highly recommend them. Seer Marino's arc in particular, Oh Wretched Man, is the best story telling I've come across in this game. Better than most single player games in fact. But you will have to read the mission briefs and the clues (especially the clues) to get the most out of it. |
Even though redside stories are no more interactive than blueside - they're just as linear - the writing is better and the gameplay feels more active and immersive (more scripted events, more mission types, less filler missions, less grindy feel as there are less defeat alls, etc.) - maybe because villains are about being proactive more than reactive, so at least your character is put at the centre of many stories instead of just being there as part of an investigation or to help out some hero more famous than you.
Seer Marino's arc is the most involving/immersive story in the entire game imho, but if you want an arc of similar quality that is also more epic than most Task/Strike Forces and features tons of cameos by well-known arch-villains then do Viridian's arc "The Conference of Evil" in Grandville - it's L45+ and has quite an extensive list of things needed to unlock it, but if you hit L50 I believe you can just pick it up at Ouroboros without needing to do the unlocking tasks. If the last two missions don't make you grin like an idiot (both lore-wise and gameplay-wise) then you're probably not going to find what you're looking for anywhere else.
In fact if you want to interact with most of the major heroes and villains in the game (although by interact, I mean beat them to a pulp
) then you can't do much better than just playing through all of the content in Grandville at L40-50 - most of the Freedom Phalanx and Vindicators pop up at various points (although you can run into most of them doing Mender Silos TF/SF in Ouro as well at L45-50), as well as many of the major archvillains from various factions throughout the game.Otherwise your best bet is just to join a team doing the STF or the LRSF.
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First, the OP didn't ask for more cutscenes. He said "more cinematic" which in this case means "show us what is happening in the story as opposed to making us read large blobs of text when we'd rather be doing some sort of action."|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
They can only add so much of a cinematic experience before it stops being a game and more like an interactive movie. I personally don't like games that overuse cut scenes to tell the story. A lot of people feel the same way. Most of the playerbase would probably avoid content that forces a bunch of cut scenes on them, interrupting the action. Since most people would likely avoid it, what is the devs' incentive for doing it?
If you've ever run an ITF you'll probably notice that when the cut scene rolls around, people start getting impatient and want to skip past it...but they can't. That's what I meant about people not all playing MMOs for the same reason. You want an immersive cinematic experience, most people I've encountered in game just want to kill crap. The main reason there aren't more cut scenes already is that the majority of the playerbase doesn't care. They would rather their action not be interrupted than have something cramming a story down their throat. MMOs are designed to appeal to the widest market possible, the devs are aware that players who actively RP their characters and have a great interest in the underlying story behind the events in the game are a minority. They aren't going to force a bunch of cinematics (which take time and resources to produce) on a playerbase when the majority of said playerbase doesn't want them. |
Second, I agree that CoX could make better use of cutscenes. The way they do them now might be the worst way to do it.
What the pattern has been for cutscenes so far (as seen in Burke's Snake mission, Creed's Geist mission, Heck's Pitbull mission, Marino's GW mission, Flux's Frostfire mission, the ITF, and maybe a few more) is that right before you fight (usually with the big bad) they take a break for a cutscene. I suppose this is intended to heighten the intensity of the fight, but you can't skip it if you've seen it before, and it interrupts play.
I do like cutscenes. However, I think they would be better used if they came at non-critical points and were used to help fill out a story. For example, there could be a general design rule that each new arc would begin with a cutscene and end with a cutscene. This would follow game design traditions in which you present a video prologue and epilogue / victory sequence. You could open, for instance, with a man running down an alley, tracked by a mysterious, menacing figure. If it is appropriate, you could close the arc with the main villain issuing dialog from behind bars in the Zig.
Additionally, important clues could be rendered as cutscenes. If you want the players to catch on to an important bit of info part way through the story, you have have a glowie that appears at the start or close of a mission that runs a cutscene. This could be either a true clue (examination of an artifact of some sort), a video update of other things happening (spinning newspaper followed by headline "Clockwork on Rampage!"), or a bit of omniscient storytelling (as in cutscenes for Twilight's Son TF).
So far, I think most if not all of the cutscenes in the game are triggered by trip triggers ... invisible lines drawn on the floor by a mission designer. But they could be triggered by any mission event. I think for most purposes touching a glowie is the best way for players to control whether or not the cutscene plays, and when.
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I'd also say no to voice acting. It's not needed, and it's actually kind of against the comic book theme. What I could go for instead would be a few different fonts that could be used in dialog balloons to indicate shadings of tone.|
Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
I agree with the OP that the game needs more immersiveness. I disagree that this should result in added voice acting as that is _terribly_ expensive and would most likely lead to much smaller content packages (or much higher prices) and as that other superhero MMO showed, making a small amount of better produced encounter really doesn't satisfy most players. Also, superhero voice acting is hard to do without sounding _really_ lame.
Things I'd like to see that would be expensive to code but cheap in "content time" (because I'm a software developer so I always look for a code solution)
Content-heavy things I'd like to see are:
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I'd like to see some of the items you mention as stretch goals.
I'd like to see more use of destructible items in the environment, including doors and walls, for instance.
I'd also like to see an upgrade of the map creation tools.
I'd like to see improvements to NPC AI.
I'd like to have all closed contacts (contacts that must be unlocked) moved out of the open zones and into instances. Any open contacts should remain in the open zones.
I'd like to see TF/SF contacts automatically unlocked when you hit the requisite level, and then accessed in instanced zones.
I'd also pull trainers from the maps and instead have players go to their origin base (each an instanced zone) to level up. These origin bases would be accessible from any base portal.
I'd have some arcs start through resolving zone encounters (like saving the Antiquities Dealer in Talos) or by touching a glowie (say, a body bag) in an open zone.
And I'm all for the better use of cutscenes. But first they need to develop an improved tool for the creation of cutscenes.
The most immersing content I've found is role-playing with other like-minded players. Especially players that create and enjoy (If you like to create) AE missions designed specifically around adventures and progressive stories involving your own characters.
However, I (and perhaps the universal "you") don't need tailor-made AE arcs for great fun.
I've found just having other players all really sticking to their characters, and going through whatever content this game has to offer, brings a level of immersion that gets me lost within it, creating within it and makes me very happy.
Whether or not people jump against the notion that "role-play" is an acceptable answer to the OP's question, I figured I'd offer my two influence and says so.
It works for me... And you never know!
As far as "immersive content"... I've found no greater than pitching in and being a part of creating and interacting with it via role-playing (Whether it be in radio missions, story arcs, task forces, simply inside bases or whatever).
I hope you find your fun!!
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan