on my very first stalker (MA/ninjitsu, been deleted for a long time now though), didnt get mez protection until the mid 30s
before lvl 30 you dont really need it too too much, but it is VERY annoying to not have mez protection at all, but as long as you take the mobs down fast you shouldnt have too much of a prob going until 30 without mez protection
Cool. That's encouraging to know. So what happened in the 30's?
I've been having a look here at the enemies I'd be facing:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Villain_Merit_Rewards
Carnies get introduced, but if I remember correctly, the Illusionists don't appear until the 40s?
Rikti start to appear from 30 onwards.
I can see the big problem with my plan being Mind Control/Illusion Control powers which dont have a position - I'd be a sitting duck for any Rikti Mentallist or Carnie Illusionist unless I got them first.
Hmmm.... I can practice this with my current Stalker I guess. See how it feels.
between 30 and 40 it was mostly CoT and other enemies that did Kb type stuff, and longbow with those damn nullifiers and their beanbags (i swear i was almost perma stunned when i fought longbow without mez protection)
but a large amount of the problem was CoT, but between 30 and 40 is when a lot of the mez-heavy enemies start showing up (rikti was another major annoyance, they have kb and stun on almost every attack and drones see through stealth)
off the top of my head i cant list any others that caused too much of an issue
It's an interesting idea. I've never tried it but now I'm wondering how you'd fare if you were soft-capped and carried a few breakfrees. If you decide to give it a go please report back on your results.
You're thinking of skipping Practiced Brawler. Don't.
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Is the "Don't" from personal experience, Daemodand?
I do realise I'm flying in the face of received wisdom here, and my inner little sceptic is saying "don't" too, but I'm resisting the urge to listen. 
I think I'll give it a go. Combat Jumping with a BotZ set will cover Immobilise and Knockback for really irritating stuff like earthquake patches.
If this would work for any melee character, its a soft-capped Stalker. If it doesn't work, well, I've got vet respecs coming out of my ears.
I took my first stalker to 48 without the melee toggle and mez protection. It's certainly do-able, but life really is much easier with both of those.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
You skipped the melee toggle!??!|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
I took my first stalker to 48 without the melee toggle and mez protection. It's certainly do-able, but life really is much easier with both of those.
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Wow! Respect is due for getting that far without it!
No fitness either. It's honestly easier than one would think, but I've gotten used to the comforts that those powers provide.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Whats the pick your giving pb up for?
My first toon ever was ma/sr, I ran that up to prob 42 with no toggles and without mez protection. It was horrible, this was back in I2 prob. Then I found the forums and got a clue!
Id imagine stuns from freak smashers would be annoying. Council stun grenades etc
You could always use the SoW's u can get from Sirens bounty. They last for 3 mins i believe.
If you do decide to run this up Id love to hear how it goes.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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I'll start a diary here once I hit the relevant levels. Im 14 at the moment, so the experiment hasn't really kicked in.
My original plan for the 20 powers by level 38 was:
3 for Fitness
3 for Fighting
7 from Martial Arts - skipping Crippling Axe Kick and Cobra Strike
7 from SR, skipping Elude since I'll be softcapping and skipping.... hmmm? That's where I put Practiced Brawler on the choipping block.
No travel power beyond Ninja Run and Raptor Packs.
I've since figured out I can probably skip Fighting and still get close enough to soft-capping. My current plan is to take Combat Jumping for Immobilise and KB protection (from BotZ) and some extra Def instead of Weave, keep Tough around for the actual Resists and the Steadfast IO, and still skip PB.
I don't strictly need to, but, its become one of those things, once the idea sticks I have to see how it plays out.
I think later on I dont even need the Steadfast IO to cap, so there's plenty of room to restructure and include PB if it gets too rough.
And yeah, AoE mezzes are an odd one. I dont get any AoE defence from SR until level 35 with Evasion, but get capped Defence while hidden.
[Edit: I could also drop Thunder Kick and actually slot the Fighting pool attack and use that instead. If I was being practical I could, I really like TK's animation]
Plenty of stuff in the low levels uses knockdown or knockback. CoT start using it (extensively at times) even in the teens. Ruin Mages are well named, and I found the application of knockdown on minion crossbows very obnoxious. Lost have KB with swords and plasma rifles, and both can also stun you. Anyone with a shotgun (very common in the hands of lowbie LTs) can knock you down.
In the 30s, Council/5th Column are a knockdown nightmare. They shower you in grenades and the "human" LTs and bosses all carry shotguns. Warwolves can knock you down with boulders or claw slaps. Vampyr LTs use non-positional psi holds and sleeps.
All the sapper/zapper Freakshow can sleep you, even the minions. The "slammer" types, even minions, which start to become prevalent after the 25 or so, will stun you.
Crey "Riot Guard" minions stun with their batons. Crey Protectors will sleep and hold you with their rifles. Crey Voltaic Tanks will stun you and knock you around. Crey Cryo Tanks will sleep you. The various Energy Melee agents can stun you, and Power Tanks will stun you with EM and knock you down with Energy Blasts.
Tsoo Ancestor Spirits will stun you with handclap and, after level 30, knock you around and hold you with KoB.
Obviously, all of that is subject to them connecting, except for things like Earthquake from Ruin Mages.
Still, I wouldn't recommend going without mez protection. I'm sure you can do it, but I sure wouldn't find it enjoyable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I think with breakfrees, capped defenses and knockback protection for solo or small team play where you determine the pace and timing of the fight(s) it's probably doable if you've tolerance for getting mezzed on occasion. Like Reiraku my first stalker (claws/ninjitsu) made it to 48 with no melee toggle and rarely if ever missed its presence. She did have Acrobatics since this trip to 50 was well before IO's and has since used build #2 to add melee into the picture. I think being both claws/ and /nin helped enormously ... I learned early the value of caltrops at keeping foes at bay. Combined with Placate (which was slotted for range) plus the kd/kb in Air Superiority, Focus and Shockwave to juggle target(s) I couldn't AS out of existence in one blow, melee attacks were rare and the self heal patched up what did get thru. She was incidently well short of soft capped even for ranged/aoe as well (again because this was prior to combat attributes or IO's). The question will be is how well first strike, placate and your kb/stun etc from MA primary will help compared to /nin's bag of tricks.
And I can't begin to tell you how often on my /SR scrapper I have looked down to realize "oops forget to click PB again" having gone, unintentionally, a few battles without till either someone got lucky and knocked her down or my brain got thru the scrapperlock.
bump
I need an update damnit!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Nothing much to report yet, I'm afraid.
I had a brief foretaste of what's in for me running on a 8 person team. I was 19 at the time, the rest of the team were around 25, and we were fighting Lost.
I got slept frequently, but then again my Defences are in the mid 20's at the moment.
I'll let you know once I hit some higher numbers how it works.
Diary of an Escape Artist Part 1
I'm only human. Bullets don't bounce off my chest, they go straight through. A lucky blow to the head with a nightstick will make me see stars. If one of those cocky supers binds me in vines or encases me in ice, I can break out using a little disposable laser torch or lockpick, but I dont just phase straight through. Keeping up in the Rogue Isles could be a challenge...
So, I'm a level 23 MA/SR with around 27% vs Melee and Ranged. The gaming gods approve of this experiment, they gave me a Karma anti-KB IO, which now sits in Combat Jumping, so I'm protected against low level KB and immobilisation. But NO Practiced Brawler.
(I also got he Kismet +Acc, now in Hide! They really do like me!)
Ive been taking down Freakshow and handled Spinerette earlier this weekend, and things are going well enough. I'm, rarely getting mezzed because I AS my targets wisely.
Today's experiment was soloing the Darrin Wade story arc, on +1/x0. This arc features a couple of special Bosses who could be trouble, so I'll dial it down one from old Invincible mode by one notch today.
Sigil is a Energy/Energy Blaster who likes a bit of Power Thrust, and also packs Petrifying Gaze, a ST ranged hold.
Kadabra Kill is a Gravity/Empathy Controller with some Psi blasts, and very nasty. I'm pretty sure his Singularity will throw me around, and if he holds me and starts healing, all my hard work on the alpha strike gets undone (as Spinerette proved).
So, my first encounter with them wasn't too bad.
Kadabra Kill and Sigil both appear with one lone minion. Both of them fell pretty quickly to a Build Up/Assassin's Strike followed by a few boots to the head, leaving me to Placate or Cobra Strike the minion and clean up.
Sigil managed to hold me as she died, I stood there in the hands up frozen pose while her minion attacked me for a few seconds, then I unfroze and finished the fight quickly.
Anathema along the way are down before they see me, so no big deal there.
The next time I met them was much worse.
They both appear as hostile Prisoners, so have a Lost Boss and Minion guarding them. The bosses have numerous mezzes, so its a really hard decision who to take down first.
Kadabra Kill appeare at +1 to my level, and I managed to get his boss before he took away the final half of my health out of nowhere. Coming back from the hospital my heart sank when I realised his Singularity was still out. My first attempted AS got interrupted by its repel field scoring a lucky hit, the second one got him and I defeated him, using up my placate to just score a critical Storm Kick to him. Not the best use of it, but he went down.
Sigil appeared as +2, along with her boss. I popped a premeptive luck, fearing that this could go South quickly. It did - they creamed me after the boss Dominated me, and I wasn't quick enough to make a Break Free out of three blues. I really should have prepared, so i think i learend something today, or rather remembered something from my Blasters. Always carry break frees. I came back from Hospital, AS'd the half-health boss to oblivion, Placated her and ran. I came back and finished the fight in my favour, even though she knocked me around a fair bit. I carefully stayed on her good side, so she couldn't knock me into the other spawns in the cave.
So in conclusion, the plusses and minuses so far are:
+ only the really tricky mission gave me trouble, with multiple mezzing bosses.
- but i was playing on +1 instead of +2
+ but then again, my Defence isn't fully capped even with a single Luck. I now have Dodge, and aim to slot two Touch of Death's soon enough.
- I died twice
+ one of the deaths was avoidable. Always carry Break Frees.
Next up, I'll try teaming, and see how I go, and report back here. Should be a laugh a minute with my pitiable AoE Defence!
With the Singularity out that one mission has you facing three mezzers at once, one of which is a boss you can't downgrade with difficulty settings. It's a bit much to handle without mez protection, especially at that level where your build is not fully mature. A couple defeats is not bad at all IMO. I doubt you'll face anything more difficult for quite a while.
Since I play a lot of squishies I've gotten in the habit of just dropping that mission. Sure I complete it with a specialized inspiration load, but it's not worth the hassle. I gladly drop it every time.
Yeah, I felt it wasn't a complete rout given all the variables.
Diary of an Escape Artist: Part 2
So last night, I tried to form a team, but with it being Monday night in Australia, probably the lowest population point in the week, I ended up doing a quick story arc with salty old dog Captain Petrovich.
My heart sank when I realised this was the arc with Sea Witch, a Storm Summoning Elite Boss. Thats a personal Hurricane, Tornado and Lightning Storm that can knock me around through my ersatz KB protection, and Thunderclap to stun me.
Level 24, I now have Dodge, and I'm still fighting at +1.
I cleared the deck of Legacy Chain first, to make sure I could sail back through the air freely without aggro-ing anything else. I had crafted a Break Free, and decided to load up on Tier 2 Damage insps at Wentworths before going in, hoping to alpha her as badly as possible and just slug through the rest.
This took down to only half her health straight away. She stunned me, I popped the break free, got a couple of hits in before getting knocked away, and ran for it. She followed me, I realised that Placating her wasn't going to work as well as I hoped because her pets would break hide for me. So I ran big-time when that didn't work, and watched my big damage bonus from the insps blink out.
She went back to her spawn point, and I crept back in for the next Assassin Strike, and took her down to 1/4 this time. We scrapped some more, she stunned me, I ran again, and eventually finished her off the third time, with another Build Up-Assassin Strike and some desperate scrapping.
So I managed to get through that with no deaths, despite getting stunned twice and knocked around a lot. Proper KB protection would have made it much easier, but the biggest issues I faced weren't really mez related - it was my inability to Placate her when AS had recharged that slowed me down more. My hit and run tactics would have been necessary anyway, standing toe to toe with her with other characters usually results in her Lightning Storm draining my End bar on other characters.
So, medium level solo-ing against some of the nastier missions in this range seems quite doable. I really have to get on a team next to see how that goes.
Diary of an Escape Artist Part 3: Teaming
I managed to get a team of four together and do a variety of paper missions, including Freakshow with their AoE stuns. We were far from optimal - our only support character was a Poison MM (who wasnt using Antidote on me), but we ran four or five papers back to back without incident. I got stunned or slept a couple of times, but it wore off pretty quickly.
I had one very embarassing solo event: Independence Port bank. I got to fight Sky Dragon, a Martial Artist hero. We stood toe to toe trading kicks like the martial arts masters we were. He then kicked me in the head and stunned me, and took me down in two subsequent moves, with only 5% of his own health bar left.
I snuck out of the prison and got revenge easily enough, but it was one of those moments that make you want to smash your keyboard in frustration.
Quick update:
I had a sneak preview last night of how life might be in later levels as I went from 28 to 30.
8 person team, fighting level 36/37 Carnies with something on the team buffing my Defence to the softcap. (Crab Spider manouvres perhaps?) We encountered one Illusionist and no Master Illusionists, they appear mostly post-40
We also fought CoT with Earth Thorn Casters using Quicksand and Stalgmites pretty heavily.
I had one vaguely bad moment. A brief stun during a CoT mission.
I'm starting to think this idea is very workable.
When I leveled my Nin/SR Stalker I noticed in one session that I had forgotten to put PB on auto when I got briefly stunned two hours later. Defense works pretty well as "mez protection" to some point.
Time to necropost.
I've got to level 45 and hit capped defence to all three positions with suppressed Hide, ie normal combat conditions. I've soloed and teamed to get there.
And I've loved it!
I carry break frees, like a Blaster, but find in large teams I don't generally draw much aggro if I do get mezzed (all my attacks are single target). I can often wait for the mez to wear off. Since level 35, which closed my AoE Defence hole, I've been happily wading into large packs of mezzing enemies and surviving, often using knockback and stuns to mitigate potential mez, just like a Blaster.
It really feels like being an exceptional but human martial artist on a team of supers - you can't afford to get bashed over the head repeatedly but you live by avoiding that situation.
The worse problems are mind controlling bosses (Rikti Mesmerists, Carnie Illusionists and Council Vampire Archons), generally I've had to use inspirations to deal with them, or tricks like keeping them in melee range so they use melee attacks (for Rikti and Council). Lieutenants with these powers get a quick Cobra Strike, followed by my undivided attention.
But most of the time I feel like a competent contributing team member.
In short, I highly recommend this to any jaded Stalker fans looking for a bit of extra excitement.
Thanks for the update. I was interested in how this was going to go back when you first brought it up, but had forgotten about it since then. It's cool that it's worked out for you.
I've been eye-ing up a potential MA/SR build. I'd ideally like to fit in Fitness and Fighting, and it all gets a bit tight on powers.
A wierd thought occurred to me - how well would a Stalker function without mez protection? I'm guessing that the answer is "badly" so the question really is "how badly?"
On my current stalker (EM/Nin) I postponed it until the mid 20s without too much hassle - I think the first time I havent picked mez protection as soon as its available. I know that the amount of mez I face will only increase at higher levels having played other Villains into the 40s, so surviving the 16-24 range without mez protection isnt too big a deal.
I wouldn't dream of doing this on any other melee character, but if I'm hidden, and always get in the first strike on any potential mezzers, and have close to capped Defence, and carry break frees... this almost feels like it could work in PvE for solo or small teams.
Has anyone ever tried this?