Quote:
Actually you didn't mispoke. It DOES have an adverse effect. If characters can no longer rely on influence/infamy, the current coin of the realm, another higher denomination currency will be used. That's a situation you want to avoid because if the casual player has a hard time with this market, they'll have a lot harder time in dealing with unofficial currencies and the potential fraudulent cultures that often arises with it.|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
I think it has no adverse affect. Thus, why not leave in the loophole.
*EDIT* I misspoke. It has no adverse affect. |
It is frankly easier than ever to get to the influence cap, especially if you have a farm build character, play a lot of characters at level 50 or run a lot of AE missions.
The only thing you'll be accomplishing is...well, nothing except inconveniencing players. It won't stop them from storing influence. It won't stop the increase in prices.
I'd be for a suggestion that actually solves the problem identified in the OP. This isn't it. It's akin to demanding a change in tires when you have an engine problem. Sure, both things are related to how the car runs, but the proposed solution misses the point.
And no, I'm not protesting this because I have something at stake here. The only thing I'd lose is convenience. I'll still generate way more influence than I spend (because I play a lot of level 50 characters), and I'll still store away influence because the GAME has a limitation on storage doesn't sync with the amount of earning power I have.
Quote:
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about nor have any idea how it pertains to what I said. What I said was "getting around the Inf cap has no adverse affect".
|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Actually you didn't mispoke. It DOES have an adverse effect. If characters can no longer rely on influence/infamy, the current coin of the realm, another higher denomination currency will be used. That's a situation you want to avoid because if the casual player has a hard time with this market, they'll have a lot harder time in dealing with unofficial currencies and the potential fraudulent cultures that often arises with it.
It is frankly easier than ever to get to the influence cap, especially if you have a farm build character, play a lot of characters at level 50 or run a lot of AE missions. The only thing you'll be accomplishing is...well, nothing except inconveniencing players. It won't stop them from storing influence. It won't stop the increase in prices. I'd be for a suggestion that actually solves the problem identified in the OP. This isn't it. It's akin to demanding a change in tires when you have an engine problem. Sure, both things are related to how the car runs, but the proposed solution misses the point. And no, I'm not protesting this because I have something at stake here. The only thing I'd lose is convenience. I'll still generate way more influence than I spend (because I play a lot of level 50 characters), and I'll still store away influence because the GAME has a limitation on storage doesn't sync with the amount of earning power I have. |
Quote:
Fury's concern is that changes like this will potentially make Inf useless as a currency. I disagree with him but it is something to keep in mind. in the event that that happens players will end up with some sort of player run economy to trade things in and this generally has a higher barrier to entrance.
|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about nor have any idea how it pertains to what I said. What I said was "getting around the Inf cap has no adverse affect".
|
Quote:
And how does that pertain to what I said?
|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Fury's concern is that changes like this will potentially make Inf useless as a currency. I disagree with him but it is something to keep in mind. in the event that that happens players will end up with some sort of player run economy to trade things in and this generally has a higher barrier to entrance.
|
Well, regardless how much influence you have stored anywhere, you can only have 2 billion on any one character at any time.
Thus, you cannot bid more than 2 billion on any one item.
Personally I think the level 53 recipe glitch was intentionally left in place to appease those players that have been asking for a banking system ever since there was a reason to care how much influence you had.
Before the invention syestem was introduced it was completely irrelevant whether you have 500 influence or 2 billion influence, provided your character had all the necessary enhancements.
Invalidating bids on level 53 recipes would royally piss players off that spend untold hours building up that money. What of the player who has 40 billion influence spread out amongst their bids? You're proposing that their hard earned influence be taken away from them with no restitution possible.
How would you feel if your life savings were taken away from you because you passed an arbitrary cap on how much money you're allowed to have? Pretty upset I bet. The people who have that kind of in-game currency spent a lot of time earning it. Should they have done all that for nothing?
Whether or not you view it as an exploit is irrelevant. It has existed since issue 8 and has never been changed. That seems to imply that the devs are leaving it in place for a reason (see my aforementioned banking syetem point)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I'd just like to see the addition of an NPC/something that sells salvage (common, uncommon and rares). I mean, why wouldn't an NPC have some Silver laying around, or Alchemical Silver, or what have ya....they have enhancements and inspirations....so why not salvage? Yes make it 'expensive' so-to-speak.
For example if I can sell salvage, let's say, a Silver, to an NPC contact/store, for 1k, I should be able to buy a Silver from an NPC/store for like 3-5k. Maybe make it cost 10x more than what it gives if you sell it, I don't know....
Oh and I would agree with getting rid of the lvl 53 bids/recipes. Maybe cap what you can bid on any item on the market...something. *shrugs*
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
Quote:
Three things:|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Whether or not you view it as an exploit is irrelevant. It has existed since issue 8 and has never been changed. That seems to imply that the devs are leaving it in place for a reason (see my aforementioned banking syetem point)
|
- Issue 9, not Issue 8. There are plenty of loopholes older than this one.
- An obvious exploit, when closed, shouldn't profit those that used the exploit. It doesn't matter how much effort was put into it.
- The length of time that has past is completely irrelevant. As guessed above, it likely hasn't been dealt with due to the small amount of players that are actively using this. The priority is likely less than fixing some of the base bugs.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
...
Whether or not you view it as an exploit is irrelevant. It has existed since issue 8 and has never been changed. That seems to imply that the devs are leaving it in place for a reason (see my aforementioned banking syetem point) |
You are right in one way, in that if I (or whoever) thinks that something is an exploit it may not be and the devs may be fine with it. However, that's the devs decision. Just because something has been in the game a long time doesn't mean it's okay to do it. How long did it take to fix other exploits (obviously some were worse than others)? Like the Phased, but can still attack/debuff Hamidon, or other exploits they've fixed (can't think of another one right now...tired
).And if in real life, we could only "earn" 2 billion dollars...I'm sure the government/whoever would be able to stop me from earning more than that if they wanted to.
I do agree with one of the people previously that said, there is nothing to spend the influence on in the game...beyond the market/purples/etc...nothing a 'casual' player does. SOs/enhancements before IOs were the 'money sink'...they expired after 3/5 lvls and therefore you HAD to get new ones (okay you didn't HAVE to but
)....bam, money sink. Now with common IOs, once you get lvl 25s or 30s, you really don't need anything after that (unless you want purples/sets/etc). What else would you spend money on? Inspirations (100 infl. at most for an awaken, rest are 50 a piece).
Costume items/pieces/costumes themselves? Sure they do cost a pretty penny but...only a percentage go all out on their costumes (on all 4-5 slots).
Maybe temp powers, like the flight pack or other Arena temps...I guess but...again only 10k a pop.
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
Capping influence is not the answer here. As has been said, it'd just result in people finding other ways around the cap, splitting it among multiple toons, trading in rare recipes/IOs, etc.
The answers seem pretty clear for preventing prices from getting out of hand... And they have nothing to do with the market itself.
-Have all salvage and recipes be for sale for INFLUENCE, not just for tickets, somewhere. Even if rare salvage went for 2 million, it would ensure that its black market value never went over 2 million unless people were being idiots. Put commons at 20,000 and uncommons at 200,000 and you've got a nice range where salvage can still be sold for profit but will never go silly high. This also means there will be influence SINKS, places for influence to dissapear from the economy to help stem inflation.
-Put some real influence sinks into the economy. As is, the only place to spend Influence is the market, crafting, and SOs. There's a few other things but they're all like 10,000 for temp powers, which is nothing. Common salvage often hits 10,000+. Giving people things to spend influence on OTHER than recipes would require people to consider whether they really want the new recipe or if they'd rather buy a Super Raptor Pack with Capped Fly Speed or a Temp Power Summon Black Scorpion for when things get really rough (Because we all know if someone was willing to shell out 50 million, he'd show up and beat on anything or anyone, even himself)
-Have a way to directly trade tickets, merits, and influence. If you can buy a merit for 1 million influence, it gives people the option to dump influence into random gold rolls. I know merits and tickets are supposed to be special for rewards, but influence is supposed to be currency, and what good is currency if you need special tokens that can't be bought or sold to buy anything?
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
Quote:
I have no clue, that's what his concern is but i'm not quite sure how he got there from your comment.
|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
And how does that pertain to what I said?
|
Quote:
I misunderstood your point and apologize for it. I agree with your point.
|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about nor have any idea how it pertains to what I said. What I said was "getting around the Inf cap has no adverse affect".
|
Quote:
As someone who uses alt toons to store inf in excess of the cap (in addition to legit flipping), I fully endorse this as it means that I will only become richer at the expense of those who use such a method to store inf.|
Originally Posted by Steele_Magnolia
Additionally, cancelling these exploitative bids on nonexistent items would suck a lot of currency out of the game, doing something to balance the game economy. Given that any such change to the game would have to be tested, players would know about it ahead of time before it came live. Players with such bids would be able, by use of trade from character to character, to prevent the loss of their currency. That is, assuming that all of their characters aren't abusing the exploit and that they had any friends to do the trades for them.
|
And I'm all about screwing over other players.
Oh wait, this isn't a bizarro version of the game? Then I think people who don't understand economics should refrain from entering into economics.
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
Quote:
This. For all of you decrying AE as the first cause of the market getting wonky, you need to step back and start at the beginning.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Further, a number of additions have been put in by the devs to give players alternatives to the market. Reward merits was one such alternative. Unfortunately, reward merits didn't do what the devs intended and instead reduced the supply of many recipes and essentially gutted out the availability of many mid level recipes while increasing the supply of max level recipes. That was truly an example of the law of unintended consequences.
|
That said, unless you're looking for a very few items meant for power gamers, even counting salvage prices, you're better off now than before i13.
Quote:
| Ideas get shot down not because pro-market players are trying to protect the status quo but because the ideas aren't well thought out. When the devs implement new additions to the market, everyone wants the changes to have mostly positive effects without accompanying negative ones. |
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
Quote:
And yet, there are items even now being sold for more than 2billion.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Well, regardless how much influence you have stored anywhere, you can only have 2 billion on any one character at any time.
Thus, you cannot bid more than 2 billion on any one item. |
EDIT: Only wanted to emphasize that one point, Claws - I agreed with your post, just wanted to say that for others in the audience.
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
Someone put this in the tag box "Ideas by Power" this isn't by me... =o
Quote:
At that point, everyone who's currently using nonexistent recipes will pull their bids (making sure to spread their inf out so as not to lose any to the cap) and then re-store it using sufficiently lowball bids on existing items (i.e. stacks of 10 bids at 200 million for the +3% defense PvP IO). Is it possible they'd lose that stored inf by actually purchasing items that make it to market? Not likely, as no one would actually list that item for that low, and if they did the person storing that inf would make even more inf off such a mistake. In short, you've solved nothing and have cost programmers a substantial amount of time to do so. (That's not even counting the time it would take to raise the inf cap, as 2 billion is about as high as they can make it without changing it away from a 32-bit signed integer.)|
Originally Posted by Steele_Magnolia
It's quite simple.
1. Remove all the nonexistent level 53 recipes from the listing. They shouldn't be in there anyway. The ability to store 2 billion inf at a time, safely, will be gone. 2. Invalidate all bids for those nonexistent level 53 recipes. 3. Perhaps raise the inf limit to 5 billion, no more, to molify the "but we want to be able to have more inf" crowd. People will still be able to play the market minigame and flip, but won't be able to abuse it and drive prices out of control the way they have now. |
In short: lolno.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
I don't think AE is an abomination.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
Just go back in time and prevent the abomination that was AE from ever happening.
|
I think what players did with it and are still doing with it are abominations (exploits) that need to be corrected.
The AE is a very powerful tool - that when used correctly - can be a great boon to this game.
I agree it has been abused like crazy, is still being abused, and the abuse missions far out number the number of missions that were actually made to tell stories.
It was because it was so easy to abuse that so many new players joined from other games. New players that weren't here to play a MMORPG in the super hero genre, but new players that were simply here because they could exploit the system.
When all you do is run farms in the AE or even Farms in the rest of the game, you aren't playing a super hero game. Your are simply trying to work the system and the genre has nothing to do with it.
There were Farms before the AE. There will be farms as long as players can run the same mission over and over again.
Is this where I get to complain about being EXPECTED to run Holiday missions over and over again ad naseum?
I guess that's for the suggestion forums...oh, we are here...
Yeah, at least give us some different maps!
How hard is to make at least one new holiday mission for an event each year?!
[Edit]
Oh, forgot to say how to stop the inflation.
Stop paying high prices for items. If the don't sell, then people will stop posting them for those crazy high prices.
Quote:
ZOMG! You should totally report such people for not being role-players in this game and it clearly states in the EULA that everyone has to rp and "be in character of a super-hero or super-villain".|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
When all you do is run farms in the AE or even Farms in the rest of the game, you aren't playing a super hero game. Your are simply trying to work the system and the genre has nothing to do with it.
|
On a side note, aren't you farming your post count by pasting the same drivel time after time, then resetting?
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
When Inf selling is gone, WW/BM inflation will come down.
Until then, it's entirely too easy for players to illegitimately acquire funds in virtually any quantity, pay whatever's being charged for anything they want and, thus, sustain a market that no legitimate player will ever be able to meaningfully participate in.
And don't you market-flippers start in about how what you do is legitimate. It's grey-area only because a strong enough case cannot be made to prove your directly prohibiting of others' abilities to experience game content.
Profiteering, however, is still lending validity and sustainability to a market that is, itself, prohibitive of the involvement of the 'average' players.
I personally think that caps on posting prices would be a grand thing.
No salvage postable for more than 2 mil, no recipe postable for more than 100 mil. With an inf cap of 2 billion and a sustainable demand that doesn't appear to be going anywhere but up, it would still take very little to repeatedly hit the inf cap by selling things on the market while, at the same time, ensuring that no single item's possible price was so outlandish and absurd that the average player couldn't possibly acquire it.
Current cost for a full set of Armageddon IO's at the time of this posting: Estimated 1.83 billion influence in total per the averaging of all current available sales data as per the WW listings.
That's one set of IO's. Just one. The cheapest one last sold for 225 million. The most expensive one last sold for 550 million.
Those are ridiculous and absurd prices only an inf-buyer could sustainably afford, and cosequently, only the inf-buyers (or a couple people I know that massively abuse the henchmen speedrun farms for about 12 hours a day) could ever actually afford.
Neither of those are reasonable options. And, currently, to participate in that market, you have to do one of two things; abuse the crap out of something that's a technical exploit, or out-and-out violate the EULA and buy inf.
Or...(*magic tinkly noise here*)...by flipping things around in the craptacular market, taking it for all its worth and supporting it thusly until the wheels fall off.
Dwurr hurr hurr. Yeah, that's great right there; just peachy. Thanks, 'flippers', for profiteering on a grossly illegitimately established market.
'Legitimate practice' my foot.
Quote:
Sorry, nothing like this is EVER simple. That you THINK it is shows a lack of understanding for the problem.|
Originally Posted by Steele_Magnolia
It's quite simple.
|
Quote:
|
1. Remove all the nonexistent level 53 recipes from the listing. They shouldn't be in there anyway. The ability to store 2 billion inf at a time, safely, will be gone. 2. Invalidate all bids for those nonexistent level 53 recipes. |
Quote:
| 3. Perhaps raise the inf limit to 5 billion, no more, to molify the "but we want to be able to have more inf" crowd. People will still be able to play the market minigame and flip, but won't be able to abuse it and drive prices out of control the way they have now. |
Also, this will not solve the problem. The problem is that demand is outstripping supply. This is what's causing inflation. Indeed, there's now a grey market outside of WW/BM for various PVP IOs selling above the 2B max. Your solution would not help. Prices would still work up to the maximum at 5B and people would go off-market and simply divide the inf out amongst their alts.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Why? Simply because the majority of people don't desire to accumulate that much?|
Originally Posted by Steele_Magnolia
The 2 billion limit as designed really should be the limit.
|
Quote:
| If the devs choose to raise it, then that's the new limit and should be enforced by the game design and not be possible to exploit around. |
Quote:
| Storing "safe" bids is an exploit. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
It's called "debt". Or you can turn off XP.|
Originally Posted by Steele_Magnolia
1. Reduce Influence - No, I would still like to be able to afford SOs and costume changes during a character's natural progression to 50 without having to resort to the market.
|
Quote:
| The market is supposed to be optional. |
I think what you're trying to do is turn the market into another store. Sorry, but the market is not, cannot, and should not be treated in this way.
Quote:
| 2. Raise Drop Rates - I'm convinced drop rates have been borked since the last issue. |
Quote:
| It still wouldn't adress the root problem of people being able to exploit the inf limit, which in turn drives up demanded prices from market flippers. |
Also, being able to store more than 2B does NOT drive up prices. Sorry, but you're misinformed. Increased demand of a scarce commodity does this all on it's own. And were a player unable to store more than 2B on a single character, they'd simply split high-value items out amongst several alts.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Why? Simply because the majority of people don't desire to accumulate that much?|
Originally Posted by Steele_Magnolia
The 2 billion limit as designed really should be the limit.
|
Quote:
| If the devs choose to raise it, then that's the new limit and should be enforced by the game design and not be possible to exploit around. |
Quote:
| Storing "safe" bids is an exploit. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
[QUOTE=Steele_Magnolia;2616553]Prices of flipped items are driven higher and higher beyond the ability of the average player to purchase because of the ability of players abusing this exploit.[./quote]
Fail. Please review Economics 101. Prices are driven higher because of increased demand. If nobody buys at the "unacceptably high" price, the seller will eventually lower his asking price. The way the market is set up, the buyer and seller BOTH have control over the pricing of a transaction.
Quote:
Do "casual" players NEED purples? No. They're a luxury item with commensurate luxury pricing. What you're seeing on the market right now is the result of too many too-impatient people paying a "buy it NAO" luxury tax.| However the average player simply cannot compete with those abusing this exploit to leverage more currency. |
Quote:
| Additionally, cancelling these exploitative bids on nonexistent items would suck a lot of currency out of the game, doing something to balance the game economy. |
Quote:
| I believe that prices would begin to stabilize. |
Quote:
| Rare and highly prized items would still command a high price, but not the prices they do today. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
I can't think of one good reason to allow players to exploit the game.
Edit: I went ahead and PM'd my suggestion and the link to this discussion directly to Synapse. It's not my opinion that matters here, it's his and that of the dev team.
*EDIT*
I misspoke. It has no adverse affect.