Archery/?


Akuma_Mishima

 

Posted

I want to start an archer themed toon that I will play mostly solo. So far I've narrowed it down to /MM, /NRG or /Devices. I'm leaning towards devices cause I just got my NemStaff and I like the idea of him being natural but I could just as easily fit the others into my concept. Thanks for the help!


 

Posted

Can't really comment on /MM or /NRG, but I do have an Archery/Devices blaster around level 22. I play him solo and consider it a very effective combination. I also have an Energy/Devices blaster (my main) at level 37 because I enjoy the secondary so much.

The /Devices powers I've chosen for my main are: Web Grenade, Caltrops, Targeting Drone, Cloaking Device and Trip Mine. My reasons for each are below.

Web Grenade: you have to take it, but it's still a good immobilization power. The -recharge is good mitigation.

Caltrops: great protection for a soloer. Throw these down before opening fire and you can keep from getting overrun when the baddies counterattack.

Targeting Drone: Who doesn't love more accuracy? Also helps conserve endurance because you don't miss as much.

Cloaking Device: the benefits of stealth w/o the movement penalty. Allows you to prepare your attacks and fight on your own terms. (excluding enemies who can see you though the cloak, of course, like Rikiti drones) The ability to lay down caltrops and/or trip mines unmolested prior to attacking is very helpful for a solo player.

Trip Mine: fantastic safety net. You can plant a few of these before attacking and when the baddies charge you, KABOOM. If you slot for recharge, you can put down a decent minefield in a reasonable amount of time. It's like carrying around a bunch of scrappers with you as your own personal bodyguard.

With regard to the remaining powers, I'm planning to pick up Gun Drone because I want to increase my firepower. Never played it but love the concept.

Many Archery blasters also take Taser because they can combine it with the Disorient power in the primary. This allows them to stack the Disorient effects and stun Bosses. I'll probably do this myself.

All in all, I find /Devices a very versatile set for a soloer that works very well conceptually for a Natural-origin hero.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

EDIT: I think I was mistaken in my terminology. Originally had "Gun Turret" but the Red Tomax web site & Mids say it's "Gun Drone," so I changed it.


 

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I really like my Archery / Energy Blaster. I play him as a natural origin pure ranged hover Blaster, using rocket boots to explain the flight. I only took a few /Energy powers, skipping the melee attacks and Conserve Power (I never drop below around 90% endurance unless debuffed so don't need it). The big advantage to /Energy is Boost Range, and getting Build Up really early is also nice. Archery lends itself well to hover blasting, and Boost Range is a hover blaster's best friend.

Devices would also work well, but I absolutely love Build Up + Aim + Rain of Arrows (do it in that order since Aim draws the bow). If you're going to be ground based then Trip Mine might make up for it, but the whole point of hovering is that you won't need Caltrops and won't be low enough to plant mines...

/Mental is a really nice secondary but it depends on being up close to the enemy and will cause redraw, so I'm not sure Archery is the best set to pair it with. Archery is quick enough that you really don't need any additional attacks to fill out a chain and it already has very good AoEs so Mental isn't going to add as much to it. Of course if you don't plan to go pure ranged then it will be very handy.


Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name

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Stryker makes some good points about Build Up; many people avoid /Devices because it lacks that power. As with most things in life, there are tradeoffs. You have to choose between a well-stocked tool case (Devices) vs. a really, really good hammer (Build Up). You can make a strong argument for either alternative. It all depends on your play style, your character concept and what type of experience you want from the game.


 

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/MM works very well. It does a little of everything and makes it very easy to IO out your character.


 

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Originally Posted by JimmyAISB View Post
I want to start an archer themed toon that I will play mostly solo. So far I've narrowed it down to /MM, /NRG or /Devices. I'm leaning towards devices cause I just got my NemStaff and I like the idea of him being natural but I could just as easily fit the others into my concept. Thanks for the help!
I'll comment on here because I have a level 50 Archery/Devices blaster. The setup is extremely fun to play, and pretty darn effective. Now, you won't be pulling out the damage of NRG and won't have the control of MM, but as /Devices, you do have some nice tools, and some subtle ways of enhancing your damage with some good tools for survival.

Web Grenade is a good tool in the early game, personally, I don't use it much anymore, instead focusing more on the AOE side of things.

Caltrops...a lot of people swear by it, but with my playstyle, and being a hover blaster, I don't have it in my build currently. Depending on if you go the hover or the ground pounding route will probably be the biggest deciding factor on how much use you'll get out of it.

Taser...again, I play at range, and this requires you to be a little closer than I get. Can it be coupled with Stunning Shot for a good disorient effect? Sure. But since I don't have stunning shot, I won't say much more, except taser will cause redraw, which can interrupt an attack chain.

Targetting Drone, this is the good stuff. Especially slotted with Gaussian's. With Gaussian's and this running you can have a chance for Build Up, which procs fairly often for me, and can be one tool to make up for lack of build up. Also, if you take the Decimation with Chance for Build Up and slot it in one of your Single Target Attacks, then you may not miss Build Up. Also, with TD running and the higher base accuracy of archery, you don't have to worry as much about slotting multiple accuracy enhancements, and will find yourself hitting more than other blasters, which in my estimation also makes up for not having build up. A steady stream of hits can be a good thing.

Smoke Grenade - This is good to use when sneaking around. Coupled with Cloaking Device, this will afford you the tools you need to stealth through missions, or sneak up close to a group of mobs to set up mines. As for me, I do have this slotted with a chance of recharge slow, which if it procs it will aggro the mobs, although, I no longer use this for stealth, I use it for debuffing, the -to hit and the slow recharge when it procs can be nice little things to have running.

Cloaking Device - This is probably one of the best defense powers in the game. You get stealth, no movement penalty, and defense. Take it, use it, love it. Couple this with Super Speed, and you have invisibility. Only mobs with high perception will see you (like Rikti Drones).

Trip Mine - This power has a few good uses, especially for those that are tactically minded. Drop your mine field before you attack, and watch the fireworks. Also, dropping one of these before you attack gives you a small damage boost, and this is what a lot of people use to help make up for the lack of build up. You can use this with Hover on, but you have to be close to the ground. Usually, I'll hover close to the ground, drop a mine, hit Aim, then use my AOEs, and then fly up if I need to. Pretty devastating, and even more so when build up procs.

Time Bomb - I like this power. I really do. But I don't have it currently. I slotted it out to focus more on my ability to use the archery AOEs, and Trip Mine was just faster, and more economical for my playstyle. It is fun to stealth in, drop one of these, back out, hit Rain of Arrows, Fistful if you have time, and then see what is left standing after the time bomb goes off.

Gun Drone - Ah, Gunnie, my little buddy. I love Gunnie. This is another one of those subtle ways to boost your damage, because he is nothing but a little flying box that spits an endless stream of bullets. Six slotted with Expedient Reinforcement gives you some good bonuses (currently what I am doing), although some people prefer to slot him with procs.

As for the Archery powers, the only ones I skipped are Ranged Shot...animation time is too long, and it really just doesn't flow with my attack sequence, and interrupts DPS. The other one is Stunning Shot...like I said, I am about AOEs, and it just doesn't flow with how I do things. Personally, I fight bosses, EBs and such, and don't really miss it (have yet to try an AV solo, but in groups I do fine).

One last thing to throw out...your Epics. If you go this route, be wary of Munitions. It looks good on paper with a minor AOE and LRM, but, that's going to cause you a lot of redraw in an attack chain, and I found really not to be worth it when you can spec your nuke, ROA, to recharge quickly and pack one hell of a punch. You will still have some redraw with Devices, but if you use your set up powers before you attack, you won't really notice it, and your buffs are toggles, so you won't cause redraw by trying to self buff.

I use Flame Mastery for my epic, and use advanced technology to explain the flame powers in my build. If you look in another thread found in this forum dealing with Melt Armor versus Bonfire, you'll see my stance on some of the flame powers, but I will state, I don't find Melt Armor to be worth it.

Now, once upon a time, NRG's buffs used to cause redraw, and I don't know if that is still the case, but that is what kept me away from NRG back in the day. And if memory serves me well, MM's attacks and buffs will cause redraw as well, but then again, I may be grossly misinformed with recent changes, and if so, please someone correct me. Not to say you can't have a successful build with NRG or MM, because many people do.


 

Posted

Arch/TA would be fine if you don't mind playing a corr and making him heroic when GoRo comes out. If it has to be a blaster then I'd go with Arch/Devices. Would be very thematic.


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Originally Posted by Nytemynde View Post
Targetting Drone, this is the good stuff. Especially slotted with Gaussian's. With Gaussian's and this running you can have a chance for Build Up, which procs fairly often for me, and can be one tool to make up for lack of build up. Also, if you take the Decimation with Chance for Build Up and slot it in one of your Single Target Attacks, then you may not miss Build Up. Also, with TD running and the higher base accuracy of archery, you don't have to worry as much about slotting multiple accuracy enhancements, and will find yourself hitting more than other blasters, which in my estimation also makes up for not having build up. A steady stream of hits can be a good thing.
Some great info here. I didn't know this. Will definitely incorporate this into my Archery/Devices blaster. Thanks!


 

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Thanks for all the great info. Gonna go with devices. It just seems right!


 

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If you enjoy Devices, go with that. It's very much a personal preference, and a pretty major departure from all the other secondaries. That said, the difference between firing the traditional opening volley of Aim + RoA + Fistful + Explosive with and without BU is noticeable. I've been messing around with /Dev a bit lately and Tripmines are quite the handy toys, but Nova Knight put it quite aptly: Devices has a well-stocked toolbox whereas /Energy is more like a hammer, but /Energy has a really really effective hammer that removes the need for fancier tools 95% of the time.


Rule number six of an empathy defender is NEVER underestimate a blaster's ability to die. I don't care if he has CM, Fort, both RAs, bubbles (both FF and Sonic), and is fighting next to a Storm defender with hurricane on. If there is a way to die in that situation, the blaster will find it.

 

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Originally Posted by Nova Knight View Post
Some great info here. I didn't know this. Will definitely incorporate this into my Archery/Devices blaster. Thanks!
Just to clarify on the Gaussian's, you don't have to slot the whole set to get the chance for the chance for build up. That is a very specific enhancement in the set. I have it six slotted on my blaster, because it does give some very nice little bonuses.


 

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Originally Posted by Doctor_Kumquat View Post
If you enjoy Devices, go with that. It's very much a personal preference, and a pretty major departure from all the other secondaries. That said, the difference between firing the traditional opening volley of Aim + RoA + Fistful + Explosive with and without BU is noticeable. I've been messing around with /Dev a bit lately and Tripmines are quite the handy toys, but Nova Knight put it quite aptly: Devices has a well-stocked toolbox whereas /Energy is more like a hammer, but /Energy has a really really effective hammer that removes the need for fancier tools 95% of the time.
It should be noted - that really effective hammer can be found in some of the other secondaries as well, and gives the exact same bonus. I think removing the need for fancier tools 95% of the time is a bit of an overestimation, but having played /NRG on another blaster, I'll state this about the set -

If I were going for pure range on my blaster, the set offers three really good powers for a pure ranged character, and a fourth power that will help you from time to time if you find yourself blowing through endurance.

Build Up - The aforementioned hammer. You can get this on other sets, but the benefit with /NRG is you get it earlier. This buff lasts for like 10 seconds or so, and it's normal recharge is once every 90 seconds. On another toon, I have it and aim set to recharge once every 24 seconds or so (when hasten is up), but that took hasten and a lot of IO sets. This and aim is a really effective hammer. Dropping a single trip mine really isn't a replacement for a good Build Up. It does help, and if you have the patience to drop a mine field that your bad guys are going to be lured into, you'll see some very impressive results that may make you forget about build up...good solo, not so much in teams, unless that team is patient enough to let you drop a field. Like I said earlier, you can ease the blow of not having this through the chance for build up procs. From my personal experiences, this works just fine for me on my /Devices blaster.

Conserve Power - This is good if you find yourself running through a ton of endurance. Down side is, it's on a long recharge timer, and isn't up as often as I would like.

Power Boost - This is really going to affect two of your archery attacks, and can have an effect on some power pool power choices, and will have a good effect on the /NRG melee powers. You can get more disorient from your Stunning Shot, and more Knockback from your Explosive Arrow, which more knockback on EA isn't always a desireable thing if your working with a tightly controlled group of mobs, but can be fun.

Boost Range - Self explanatory. If you feel you need to be further away from your foes, this is the power for you, and with three level 50 recharge IOs, this power is .1 seconds away from being perma, not a bad deal, and not too hard to push this ability into the perma arena.

/NRG also offers some good melee options if you are going for a more in your face approach, and a really good Mag 4 stun on Total Focus. My /Nrg toon really only used Build, Power Boost, and Boost Range. The up side was that I had plenty of power choices open for power pool powers.

This is just my opinion, and in no way meant to be taken as fact, but having played both, /Devices feels to be a bit more survivable, and offers a steady stream of damage with some really fun toys. /NRG offers a pretty big bang when it is up, some good self buffs and some good melee options.

Both are viable options, and running in groups with blasters at level 50, I don't find myself to be any less effective, and hold my own. But, since the OP stated this is more of a solo project, imho, the toolbox will serve the OP exceedingly well.


 

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One of my favorite things about /Devices is how it allows you to become the ultimate ambusher.

Try this when cloaked... hover towards a group of enemies, engulf them in a field of caltrops, use web grenade to immobilize your primary target in the caltrops, then open fire. Usually, you can take out your primary target while the others are still scrambling to escape the field. You usually get a couple free shots at the others as well because they're slowed. Of course, while they're all trying to escape the caltrops, they're not firing at you. In addition, the crowded caltrop field is a good target for your cone/aoe attacks.

Good times, good times.

EDIT: forgot to mention how Targeting Drone and Archery's inherent accuracy bonus also help maximize the effectiveness of this tactic.


 

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Originally Posted by Nova Knight View Post
Try this when cloaked... hover towards a group of enemies, engulf them in a field of caltrops, use web grenade to immobilize your primary target in the caltrops, then open fire. Usually, you can take out your primary target while the others are still scrambling to escape the field. You usually get a couple free shots at the others as well because they're slowed. Of course, while they're all trying to escape the caltrops, they're not firing at you. In addition, the crowded caltrop field is a good target for your cone/aoe attacks.
Actually, the first thing enemies do when I toss Caltrops at them is turn around to shoot at me before they take off running. From then on, it's a little bit like Terrorise - they'll run away for a couple of seconds, shoot, then keep trying to run away. I've gotten killed more than enough times doing just that to have been burned for life. These days I prefer a good Aim + Rain of Arrows + Explosive Arrow. If need be Caltrops and a single Trip Mine are at MY feet in case anyone gets any ideas. That and Hover actually very much makes Caltrops an unneeded power.

As for Cloaking Device, I'll hand you that it's convenient, but I'd never call it the greatest power in the game, since it does almost nothing. Yes, you get Stealth without the movement penalty, but that's not saying much since Stealth isn't all that useful. It's good for toe-bombing enemies and not getting killed walking around corners, but once you're actually fighting, the benefits fade away. Cloaking Device suppresses, so you are no longer hidden and its defence buff evaporates (2/3 of it do, anyway) and you're left with basically a toggle that doesn't do anything.

Smoke Grenade is kind of the same way. It's good in addition to Cloaking Device so that you can plant a Time Bomb in the middle of a large spawn and then rub your hands together as the little light ticks faster and faster, but really - that's two powers to do one single thing. Yes, I guess it hides OTHER people on the team from enemies, for all the good that does to a Blaster. Hardly worth on a Defender, if you ask me.

And while Auto Turret... Pardon, Gun Drone is pretty good, that cost... Ye gads that cost! For something that lasts barely a minute and has all of one attack, 39 points of endurance is beyond steep, especially when I can fall asleep while the hour-long animation to call it in is playing.

That said, I've taken this Archery/Devices Blaster to level 37 as of right now and I can't really find anything to complain, outside of the general beef I have with Devices being full of half-powers. Lacking Build Up shouldn't hit you as hard if you're not unfortunate enough to pick Assault Rifle, and Archery has enough damage going downrange to make up the difference. Like Assault Rifle, Archery's Rain of Arrows is a very good combo mean for sneak attacks and toe-bombing with Time Bombs, though with its shorter animation and higher damage, there's a lot less need to do so. And you really don't have to shoot yourself in the foot, spending upwards of 60 seconds laying down mines every spawn unless you really, really want to kill your levelling speed for some odd reason, since the combo does allow you to play in a rather more aggressive fashion.

That, and with redraw still being an issue and other sets requiring much more bow-removing power usage, I'd stick with Devices. It works.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Actually, the first thing enemies do when I toss Caltrops at them is turn around to shoot at me before they take off running. From then on, it's a little bit like Terrorise - they'll run away for a couple of seconds, shoot, then keep trying to run away. I've gotten killed more than enough times doing just that to have been burned for life. These days I prefer a good Aim + Rain of Arrows + Explosive Arrow. If need be Caltrops and a single Trip Mine are at MY feet in case anyone gets any ideas. That and Hover actually very much makes Caltrops an unneeded power..

It's been my experience that, without the caltrops, the baddies will all keep shooting at you. The caltrops disrupt their attack sequence. I've had good luck with it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
As for Cloaking Device, I'll hand you that it's convenient, but I'd never call it the greatest power in the game, since it does almost nothing. Yes, you get Stealth without the movement penalty, but that's not saying much since Stealth isn't all that useful. It's good for toe-bombing enemies and not getting killed walking around corners, but once you're actually fighting, the benefits fade away. Cloaking Device suppresses, so you are no longer hidden and its defence buff evaporates (2/3 of it do, anyway) and you're left with basically a toggle that doesn't do anything.

I never called Cloaking Device the greatest power in the game. I merely pointed out how the various powers in /Devices, as a whole, lend themselves to ambushes and sneak attacks. Cloaking Device allows you to set up your shot and/or kill zone without being attacked. For this reason, I consider it a very useful tool in the /Devices toolbox. Your mileage and play style may vary.


 

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I have never seen any reason to take anything other than /Energy on a blaster. Build Up, Power Boost and Boost Range are incredible to have at your disposal, not to mention some of the most powerful single target melee attacks available to Blasters and a high chance to stun in them all.

Not to mention, I love Boost Range + Aim + Build Up + Rain of Arrows -> Fistful of Arrows -> Explosive Arrow. Only the bosss will survive, which will at least be at Half Health, at which point you have a very nice single target ranged attack chain to finish him off.


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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler View Post
you *******!!!!

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Actually, the first thing enemies do when I toss Caltrops at them is turn around to shoot at me before they take off running. From then on, it's a little bit like Terrorise - they'll run away for a couple of seconds, shoot, then keep trying to run away. I've gotten killed more than enough times doing just that to have been burned for life. These days I prefer a good Aim + Rain of Arrows + Explosive Arrow. If need be Caltrops and a single Trip Mine are at MY feet in case anyone gets any ideas. That and Hover actually very much makes Caltrops an unneeded power.

As for Cloaking Device, I'll hand you that it's convenient, but I'd never call it the greatest power in the game, since it does almost nothing. Yes, you get Stealth without the movement penalty, but that's not saying much since Stealth isn't all that useful. It's good for toe-bombing enemies and not getting killed walking around corners, but once you're actually fighting, the benefits fade away. Cloaking Device suppresses, so you are no longer hidden and its defence buff evaporates (2/3 of it do, anyway) and you're left with basically a toggle that doesn't do anything.

Smoke Grenade is kind of the same way. It's good in addition to Cloaking Device so that you can plant a Time Bomb in the middle of a large spawn and then rub your hands together as the little light ticks faster and faster, but really - that's two powers to do one single thing. Yes, I guess it hides OTHER people on the team from enemies, for all the good that does to a Blaster. Hardly worth on a Defender, if you ask me.

And while Auto Turret... Pardon, Gun Drone is pretty good, that cost... Ye gads that cost! For something that lasts barely a minute and has all of one attack, 39 points of endurance is beyond steep, especially when I can fall asleep while the hour-long animation to call it in is playing.

That said, I've taken this Archery/Devices Blaster to level 37 as of right now and I can't really find anything to complain, outside of the general beef I have with Devices being full of half-powers. Lacking Build Up shouldn't hit you as hard if you're not unfortunate enough to pick Assault Rifle, and Archery has enough damage going downrange to make up the difference. Like Assault Rifle, Archery's Rain of Arrows is a very good combo mean for sneak attacks and toe-bombing with Time Bombs, though with its shorter animation and higher damage, there's a lot less need to do so. And you really don't have to shoot yourself in the foot, spending upwards of 60 seconds laying down mines every spawn unless you really, really want to kill your levelling speed for some odd reason, since the combo does allow you to play in a rather more aggressive fashion.

That, and with redraw still being an issue and other sets requiring much more bow-removing power usage, I'd stick with Devices. It works.
I agree with some of what you said, and disagree with others.

For Gunnie, yeah, the endurance cost is a little steep, but you can knock that cost down, and with the proper slotting, you don't notice it (it's never hurt me to the point of caring, but I recover quick). The steady stream of damage is worth it to me, cast times (7 seconds) and all, but that's just me.

Smoke Grenade is also a worthwhile tool. Currently I get a -to hit buff of 7.55%. That little number makes SG more than just a sneak up to TB them tool, and turns it into a valid tool of defense. It's really good little debuff, and if you find yourself lacking in defense numbers can really help you survive some tough fights.

And no, CD is not the best defense power in the game. Personally I stated it is one of the best, but that is just my little own opinion, and I should clarify that by stating it is one of the best defense powers in the game that Blasters can get. It gives about as much defense as CJ/Hover after you attack (still enough to help me get over the defense softcap), you get stealthy goodness before you do attack, no movement penalty when you do stealth, and you can double dip on global recharge buffs if you are so inclined by taking 5 IOs out of the Red Fortune set, and the +7.5% global recharge IO out of LOTG. In my estimation, all the above makes it exceedingly worth it. Weave is good with higher numbers, but you have to be willing to go through the fighting pool to get it, and that just doesn't fit in some tight builds, and Frozen Armor from the Epics gives you around a 10% to defense, but that is to S/L, which does me no real good on a hover blaster when you are looking to your Ranged Defense. So yeah, still sticking with my opinion on that.

Caltrops...I like you don't use it, but it can have it's place in a hover build. I know some people will lay out their mine field, toss caltrops over it, then attack their mobs. This will cause the mobs to run slower through the field, and some people seem to find that running through the caltrops with trip mines makes it more likely that they will hit more of the mines thanks to the slower movement rate. Have not tested this myself.

On laying down mines...yeah, that can kill your levelling speed if you lay them out for every mob, but it can be helpful if you find yourself looking at a tough group of mobs, and is just all around fun from time to time. I really only drop the one mine nowadays before my attack chain starts, but from time, I will still find myself laying out a field for fun. Tactically it can be very useful, but not really a "need". If I ever feel the need to toe bomb, I'll drop about two to three trip mines around the mobs, and get several smaller strong bangs than the one big bang. This way, I'm not under as short of a timer, and two trip mines alone will generally out damage a time bomb if set off, and you have less KB to worry about.


 

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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow View Post
I have never seen any reason to take anything other than /Energy on a blaster. Build Up, Power Boost and Boost Range are incredible to have at your disposal, not to mention some of the most powerful single target melee attacks available to Blasters and a high chance to stun in them all.

Not to mention, I love Boost Range + Aim + Build Up + Rain of Arrows -> Fistful of Arrows -> Explosive Arrow. Only the bosss will survive, which will at least be at Half Health, at which point you have a very nice single target ranged attack chain to finish him off.
Not denying that it's a good combo, but usually when I face a group, I get about the same results. /NRG is nice, but there are some tools others have to even the playing field.


 

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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow View Post
I have never seen any reason to take anything other than /Energy on a blaster. Build Up, Power Boost and Boost Range are incredible to have at your disposal, not to mention some of the most powerful single target melee attacks available to Blasters and a high chance to stun in them all.

Not to mention, I love Boost Range + Aim + Build Up + Rain of Arrows -> Fistful of Arrows -> Explosive Arrow. Only the bosss will survive, which will at least be at Half Health, at which point you have a very nice single target ranged attack chain to finish him off.
I have a low-level sonic/energy blaster who I've neglected in favor of my two /devices blasters. I'll have to dust him off and work my way through the /energy secondary so I can play with some new toys. Variety is the spice of life, after all.


 

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Originally Posted by Nytemynde View Post
For Gunnie, yeah, the endurance cost is a little steep, but you can knock that cost down, and with the proper slotting, you don't notice it (it's never hurt me to the point of caring, but I recover quick). The steady stream of damage is worth it to me, cast times (7 seconds) and all, but that's just me.
Yeah, it's not a BAD power, but it costs and delays FAR longer than it has any business to, to be perfectly honest. It adds damage, but not quite that much, and it does take some punishment, but doesn't have the tools to tank... It's basically a power that's nice to have that comes at the cost of Dark Regeneration. Yeah, not a fan of that balance.

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Smoke Grenade is also a worthwhile tool. Currently I get a -to hit buff of 7.55%. That little number makes SG more than just a sneak up to TB them tool, and turns it into a valid tool of defense. It's really good little debuff, and if you find yourself lacking in defense numbers can really help you survive some tough fights.
I don't know what sets you're using, and I do realise that some to-hit debuff might be meaningful if you're pushing the defence cap, but for someone like me who doesn't do sets, the to-hit debuff in the power isn't worth much. I used to try to slot for it, but it wasn't worth it when I could use the slots for more damage.

And no, CD is not the best defense power in the game. Personally I stated it is one of the best, but that is just my little own opinion, and I should clarify that by stating it is one of the best defense powers in the game that Blasters can get. [/quote]

Again, this sounds like a "set mule" more so than an actually useful power. And I'm aware of its uses, believe me. I use it all the time. But I wish it didn't need the redundant Smoke Grenade to achieve invisibility, or alternately that it didn't suppress. Devices already has enough "questionable" powers without the set doubling up on the same basic effect.

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Caltrops...I like you don't use it, but it can have it's place in a hover build. I know some people will lay out their mine field, toss caltrops over it, then attack their mobs. This will cause the mobs to run slower through the field, and some people seem to find that running through the caltrops with trip mines makes it more likely that they will hit more of the mines thanks to the slower movement rate. Have not tested this myself.
Well, I have and use Caltrops, usually in conjunction with Trip Mines as you describe. Years ago I spent many hours trying to explain this exact tactic to people, as it's the only reliable way to get multiple opponents over a trip mine if you lay it down carefully. But, especially with Hover, it's not a power that I tend to use a lot. Partly because I can get away on my own, partly because I tend to just kill stuff before it gets close, or have a mine ready and waiting.

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On laying down mines...yeah, that can kill your levelling speed if you lay them out for every mob, but it can be helpful if you find yourself looking at a tough group of mobs, and is just all around fun from time to time. I really only drop the one mine nowadays before my attack chain starts, but from time, I will still find myself laying out a field for fun. Tactically it can be very useful, but not really a "need". If I ever feel the need to toe bomb, I'll drop about two to three trip mines around the mobs, and get several smaller strong bangs than the one big bang. This way, I'm not under as short of a timer, and two trip mines alone will generally out damage a time bomb if set off, and you have less KB to worry about.
Well, I tend to take all my primary and secondary powers, so I never neglected my mines, and they are indeed very useful for tough bosses and elite bosses. A little less so for large groups of enemies just because of how they are balanced, that's what Time Bomb is for. I'm just trying to dissuade people from feeling like they need a minefield for every spawn, because that kills more than just levelling speed. It kills all the fun.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Yeah, it's not a BAD power, but it costs and delays FAR longer than it has any business to, to be perfectly honest. It adds damage, but not quite that much, and it does take some punishment, but doesn't have the tools to tank... It's basically a power that's nice to have that comes at the cost of Dark Regeneration. Yeah, not a fan of that balance.
Mileage may vary between users, but when I am talking about a steady stream of damage, I mean a steady stream of damage. Even before I was fully IO'ed and slotted out (which I never really do for a toon until I start hitting 47), I still found use for Gunnie. Summoned him for tough fights, popped a blue and off I went. He still attacks when you are mezzed, and not to harp on this point, but he is a steady stream of damage, which adds to your DPS, and is nothing to sneeze at. Smaller numbers than your primary attacks yes, but they add up, and help.

Now at 50, I summon him quite a bit. For a 7 sec cast time, he stays standing for a few grouping of mobs when I plow through. Is he a necessity? Not really. Is he fun and adds worthwhile damage, yes. IOed out, Gunnie can take some punishment, and if anyone is trying to use him for tankage though, then they are using him for the wrong thing. I use him as an additional tool for damage/dps. And he is effective at it. But differing points of view here.



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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I don't know what sets you're using, and I do realise that some to-hit debuff might be meaningful if you're pushing the defence cap, but for someone like me who doesn't do sets, the to-hit debuff in the power isn't worth much. I used to try to slot for it, but it wasn't worth it when I could use the slots for more damage.

And no, CD is not the best defense power in the game. Personally I stated it is one of the best, but that is just my little own opinion, and I should clarify that by stating it is one of the best defense powers in the game that Blasters can get.

Again, this sounds like a "set mule" more so than an actually useful power. And I'm aware of its uses, believe me. I use it all the time. But I wish it didn't need the redundant Smoke Grenade to achieve invisibility, or alternately that it didn't suppress. Devices already has enough "questionable" powers without the set doubling up on the same basic effect.
As for this...yes, you can achieve Invisibility with two powers. Two powers that have alternate uses, and still find use after you attack, and considering that in the Invisibility power description, you can't attack with it activated, and Invisibility is a bit of an endurance hog, then yeah, I'll take the two powers that do one thing. Hell, you can take Superspeed and use it with CD and achieve invisibility if you so desire. Yeah, two powers doing the same thing, but you aren't having to take stealth, and the two powers combined still drain less endurance than one power.

As for SG and purposes for Defense, even if you aren't pushing the defense cap, as a blaster, a good goal is survivability so you can keep blasting. Even without slotting it fully, it gives a base of -4.9% to hit. Considering most defense powers blasters have access to give 3.5% defense and less, those numbers start to add up. And considering you don't do sets, you should have plenty of slots to use for slotting it and still be able to slot for damage.

Where you see questionable powers, I see powers with some use, but it seems we'll have to concede to different points of view.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Well, I have and use Caltrops, usually in conjunction with Trip Mines as you describe. Years ago I spent many hours trying to explain this exact tactic to people, as it's the only reliable way to get multiple opponents over a trip mine if you lay it down carefully. But, especially with Hover, it's not a power that I tend to use a lot. Partly because I can get away on my own, partly because I tend to just kill stuff before it gets close, or have a mine ready and waiting.


Well, I tend to take all my primary and secondary powers, so I never neglected my mines, and they are indeed very useful for tough bosses and elite bosses. A little less so for large groups of enemies just because of how they are balanced, that's what Time Bomb is for. I'm just trying to dissuade people from feeling like they need a minefield for every spawn, because that kills more than just levelling speed. It kills all the fun.
Now here, I really have no arguement against anything. I agree you don't need to lay down a minefield for every mob. To some people, it's part of the fun, to others, it's fun every great once in awhile (that would be me). Once upon a time I used to take all of my primary and secondaries, and once upon a time I also never would touch IO sets (don't let my forum join date fool you, I've been around for a long while), but I just got into the mindset of wanting to do something fun, and for me, taking every power for the sake of taking it because it was in a set, was just not fun. I like optimizing my builds, and really find it fun when I can complete a vision, and have it work effectively.

If you aren't touching IO sets, you are missing out on some really good benefits and bonuses that can make your toon perform in surprisingly effective ways, and can make some of the less useful powers more useful. Now, like I said, I won't touch them while I level, I just don't find the process to be cost effective at that point, but I find it worthwhile when I am hitting the end game.

But again, it is all just a matter of opinion, and we seem to have varying opinions, but it seems we can at least both have fun with our toons and find some use out of the set.


 

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Originally Posted by Nytemynde View Post
Mileage may vary between users, but when I am talking about a steady stream of damage, I mean a steady stream of damage. Even before I was fully IO'ed and slotted out (which I never really do for a toon until I start hitting 47), I still found use for Gunnie. Summoned him for tough fights, popped a blue and off I went. He still attacks when you are mezzed, and not to harp on this point, but he is a steady stream of damage, which adds to your DPS, and is nothing to sneeze at. Smaller numbers than your primary attacks yes, but they add up, and help.

Now at 50, I summon him quite a bit. For a 7 sec cast time, he stays standing for a few grouping of mobs when I plow through. Is he a necessity? Not really. Is he fun and adds worthwhile damage, yes. IOed out, Gunnie can take some punishment, and if anyone is trying to use him for tankage though, then they are using him for the wrong thing. I use him as an additional tool for damage/dps. And he is effective at it. But differing points of view here.
I don't discount that the Gun Drone adds extra damage. I'd argue how much, since it basically has Assault Rifle Burst on auto-fire and that's it, but that's not as important. The point is that it costs more than half as much endurance as it lasts (60 seconds) and it just DRAGS to summon, especially when you can be interrupted. Pretty much every time, I summon it as I'm resting to mitigate the cost. What's worse, it doesn't have decent range. Yes, its one attack may be capped at 100 feet, but the drone's AI won't actually make it attack unless you shove yourself into the enemies, and if I happen to want to stay at 80 feet, the Drone will just fly around, wasting my minutes.

Gun Drone is pretty much a Voltaic Sentinel, but is targetable and has hit points. Yet Voltaic Sentinel has a short animation, costs about 20 points and isn't interruptible. Granted, it's a primary power, but for a "final" power, Gun Drone is very disappointing. That's kind of a theme with Manipulation set final powers, but this one is just... Over the top. Obviously it does have its uses, but it has no reason to demand that kind of cost or that kind of animation time.



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As for this...yes, you can achieve Invisibility with two powers. Two powers that have alternate uses, and still find use after you attack, and considering that in the Invisibility power description, you can't attack with it activated, and Invisibility is a bit of an endurance hog, then yeah, I'll take the two powers that do one thing. Hell, you can take Superspeed and use it with CD and achieve invisibility if you so desire. Yeah, two powers doing the same thing, but you aren't having to take stealth, and the two powers combined still drain less endurance than one power.
What I'm saying is that Devices should have been given a better Stealth power, rather than one that's SLIGHTLY better than a pool power and been given something actually helpful in the other slot. This is a recurring theme with Mastery powersets, in that they're chock full of powers of questionable use, like how Fire Manipulation gets Burn. They have some use, obviously, but these sets are just... Odd.

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As for SG and purposes for Defense, even if you aren't pushing the defense cap, as a blaster, a good goal is survivability so you can keep blasting. Even without slotting it fully, it gives a base of -4.9% to hit. Considering most defense powers blasters have access to give 3.5% defense and less, those numbers start to add up. And considering you don't do sets, you should have plenty of slots to use for slotting it and still be able to slot for damage.
Here I'm going to disagree with you. A 5% to-hit debuff does practically nothing to help you if you don't have other defence to stack it with. The contribution of defence percentages increases as your level of defence goes up. If you're already close to capping, with say 40% defence already, then that extra 5% will double your mitigation. If you're just adding 5% over nothing, it won't change things much at all. 5% is the same as 3% and almost functionally the same as 0%, and that's actually mathematically provable. That's actually why I removed my to-hit debuff slots. Each added around 1% debuff, which didn't do much.

As far as having slots goes, I just happen to not have enough to spare, between slotting attacks and Epics.

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If you aren't touching IO sets, you are missing out on some really good benefits and bonuses that can make your toon perform in surprisingly effective ways, and can make some of the less useful powers more useful. Now, like I said, I won't touch them while I level, I just don't find the process to be cost effective at that point, but I find it worthwhile when I am hitting the end game.
So I'm being told, but what people never take into account is that Inventions don't grow on trees and a functional understanding of them is not a simple matter of snapping my fingers. If I ever wanted to get into them, I'd first have to do my homework, and would then have to resign myself to the notion that I will never really have everything that I want. Which, for a game, is a pretty damn depressing way to play, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather stick to SOs or at most Common Inventions and know I can get everything I can ever want from regular play than try to shoot for the stars and get only part-way. I let other people complain about Merits, grind TFs and trudge at the market. I'd rather play the game in easy mode.

Inventions Sets are undisputed better, but that's balanced by the cost of acquiring and using them, which I don't fancy paying.

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But again, it is all just a matter of opinion, and we seem to have varying opinions, but it seems we can at least both have fun with our toons and find some use out of the set.
Certainly. I'd never try to rain on other people's parade about balance and power use, but I still believe that Devices is one of the most fluff-filled Mastery sets out there, and my AR/Dev Blaster is easily the weakest one of the lot. And I've played everything other than Sonic to some level, so if anything was weaker, I'd have seen it. It's doable, and that's always the big bone of contention, but "doable" and "doable well" are two separate things. Practically every other Blaster I've tried has been faster, easier and safer.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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With regard to Gun Drone, I just picked it up for the first time ever on my energy/devices blaster. My initial reaction: way cool.

Yeah, its endurance cost is high, but there are ways to deal with that. On my /devices characters, I'm all about versatility and I like having the options that this power affords me. I can tell that, like Trip Mine, it's not for every battle. I'm already starting to get a feel for when and how to use it.

Before using it on a mission I took it for a trial run in a safe environment. (Thank you gray-con villains of Steel Canyon. Paragon City appreciates your sacrifice.) A couple questions come to mind...

1) The firing sequence seems to be activated by proximity. Is this the case? If so, how close do enemies need to get before the drone starts firing?

2) When the drone self-destructs, does this explosion inflict any damage on nearby baddies or is is just for dramatic effect?

All in all, I'm happy with the capabilities of /Devices because it matches my character concept pretty closely. This discussion has also caused me to reevaluate some of my preconceived views about certain other powers in the set. (i.e. I'm taking another look at Smoke Grenade, which I previously disregarded.) Always helpful to debate and see things from other another perspective. Lots of good ideas & info floating around here.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I don't discount that the Gun Drone adds extra damage. I'd argue how much, since it basically has Assault Rifle Burst on auto-fire and that's it, but that's not as important. The point is that it costs more than half as much endurance as it lasts (60 seconds) and it just DRAGS to summon, especially when you can be interrupted. Pretty much every time, I summon it as I'm resting to mitigate the cost. What's worse, it doesn't have decent range. Yes, its one attack may be capped at 100 feet, but the drone's AI won't actually make it attack unless you shove yourself into the enemies, and if I happen to want to stay at 80 feet, the Drone will just fly around, wasting my minutes.

Gun Drone is pretty much a Voltaic Sentinel, but is targetable and has hit points. Yet Voltaic Sentinel has a short animation, costs about 20 points and isn't interruptible. Granted, it's a primary power, but for a "final" power, Gun Drone is very disappointing. That's kind of a theme with Manipulation set final powers, but this one is just... Over the top. Obviously it does have its uses, but it has no reason to demand that kind of cost or that kind of animation time.
Gun Drone does more damage than VS and actually lasts 90 seconds, and with my set up runs me 24 endurance. At level 50 one endurance reduction SO enhancement knocks the cost down by approximately 10 points (from 39 to 29), if you do a second then approximately another six points (roughly 23 endurance to summon). The costs can be mitigated. As well, you get it for 90 seconds with more damage for a 7 second cast time versus 60 seconds and less damage for VS with a 3.1 sec cast time (and a 26 endurance cost, which can be mitigated fairly well). And considering most of the other final powers in the other secondary power choices are melee oriented with endurance costs comparable to Rain of Arrows with less damage than ROA (shorter recharge and cast times though), personally I don't find it to be that much of a disapointment. I'll happily spend my 24 endurance for 90 seconds of steady damage versus the cost of some of the other final powers and having to get into melee. Having played the set extensively, and through different revisions and power choices, I notice the difference the added dps makes. The more incoming damage, the better.

Popping a blue after you summon it or, and this is my personal choice, IOing for recovery makes a big difference, and maybe this is the big distinction between how we view the power, although, I never found it to be that big of an issue or a drag during the levelling process. If you don't like it, you don't like it. To each their own, and I can respect that point of view, I just don't agree with it when I have experienced something different than you.


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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
What I'm saying is that Devices should have been given a better Stealth power, rather than one that's SLIGHTLY better than a pool power and been given something actually helpful in the other slot. This is a recurring theme with Mastery powersets, in that they're chock full of powers of questionable use, like how Fire Manipulation gets Burn. They have some use, obviously, but these sets are just... Odd.
Yeah, I agree a lot of these power sets have some odd choices. I still like CD, and would leave it as is, but we each see the glass differently between half full and half empty. I'll stick by CD since I have had a lot of success with it.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Here I'm going to disagree with you. A 5% to-hit debuff does practically nothing to help you if you don't have other defence to stack it with. The contribution of defence percentages increases as your level of defence goes up. If you're already close to capping, with say 40% defence already, then that extra 5% will double your mitigation. If you're just adding 5% over nothing, it won't change things much at all. 5% is the same as 3% and almost functionally the same as 0%, and that's actually mathematically provable. That's actually why I removed my to-hit debuff slots. Each added around 1% debuff, which didn't do much.

As far as having slots goes, I just happen to not have enough to spare, between slotting attacks and Epics.
**EDIT NOTE - I am going to leave my original statement below as is, but I did misread your statement here, so my answer goes off track as to your point. Yes, a 5% debuff to hit doesn't do much for you if you don't have other defenses to stack it with, and in my original statement, I don't know where you inferred anything about not stacking it with other defenses. I simply pointed out that with the lower defense bases from what is offered to you as a blaster, it can make a difference. Personally, I am advocate of using the other defense powers with a good helping of this on top. If you for some reason neglect the other defense powers, then you have a valid point. This plus CD alone won't do you a whole lot of good, but it can still be beneficial for other team members if grouped defense wise. But in reality, you have nothing really to disagree with me on this point. I agree, by itself, it won't be of much help. Now that I have reread it, your statement is a bit clearer now. I somehow skipped this part "if you don't have other defence to stack it with", but typing/reading and such while trying to rock a crying child to sleep apparently do not mix.**

Considering that the -to hit debuff is subtracted from their to hit along with your defense (yes the equation is much more complicated, but I won't get into it), and considering buffs/debuffs from other party members, then yes it all adds up, even if you yourself aren't close to soft capping, and in teams, it may also make the difference for others (SG is not a selfish power by any means). Factor in your inspirations, and I can say from experience, it can and will make a difference. Functionally, when you are working with more than just your base defenses, it is quite useful, and every little bit adds up. You can say it's mathematically proveable to be the same as 0%, but when I experience the opposite, I have to disagree in the solo and group fields.

Right now my Archery/Devices is just a very tiny bit shy of the softcap. So, SG is not needed as much for me any more, but I find it does make a difference on some of the higher accuracy/to hit based mobs, and four slotted with Dark Watcher's Despair, I get a -7.55% with a chance at minus recharge.

Here, we will have to agree to disagree as with many things. My experience differs greatly than yours as with a few things.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
So I'm being told, but what people never take into account is that Inventions don't grow on trees and a functional understanding of them is not a simple matter of snapping my fingers. If I ever wanted to get into them, I'd first have to do my homework, and would then have to resign myself to the notion that I will never really have everything that I want. Which, for a game, is a pretty damn depressing way to play, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather stick to SOs or at most Common Inventions and know I can get everything I can ever want from regular play than try to shoot for the stars and get only part-way. I let other people complain about Merits, grind TFs and trudge at the market. I'd rather play the game in easy mode.

Inventions Sets are undisputed better, but that's balanced by the cost of acquiring and using them, which I don't fancy paying.
No, inventions don't grow on trees, and yes it is a system not originally implemented in the game, but if you can understand the mathematic functionality of defense, then playing around with and learning IO sets is truly not that difficult. The costs can get expensive depending on what you are looking at getting, but planning, Day Jobs, merits and so forth and so on can mitigate that cost and time factor. It may take you some time to fully IO your toon, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

To learn to play CoH, it took time experience and a little homework. Each update, when they change things, that can change the face of the game, and you often have to learn new things. Before ED, the game was played entirely differently. After ED, if you wanted to stick with the game, you had to learn a new way to play, because the old rules went out the window. The game is constantly changing and evolving, and you can't tell me that if you have played for any length of time, you haven't had to learn one or two new things here and there?

Yeah, I agree, who really wants to work towards a game? You play to have fun, but for me part of the fun is watching my character grow, and I like to feel heroic in a super hero game, and IO sets help. IO sets are fairly quick to learn, there is a lot of easy to access intel on it that makes it painless, and as I am sure you know, if you ask, you can receive some good info on these boards.

How I saved up for my sets? On my blaster, at level 50, it was two weeks worth of work. I farmed a mission in Oro for merits, and with a good team, you can get quite a few in a night, even solo with some missions you can earn them at a good clip. I used merits to start working on what I want to get at a merit vendor, and when I park my toon, I park in Oro for the recipe bonus at mission completion, earning me some fairly nice recipes, some of which are of use, and others which I put up for sale. As well, with the right mission settings, you can plow through mobs for efficient farming and get a steady gain of recipes and salvage that you can sell. It's not that hard, and definitely easier than the levelling process, and you can still play in an easy mode.

I mean seriously, what else are you going to do after 50? I like to revisit my toons from time to time, and I play builds to completion. I almost view it as an extension of the levelling process.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Certainly. I'd never try to rain on other people's parade about balance and power use, but I still believe that Devices is one of the most fluff-filled Mastery sets out there, and my AR/Dev Blaster is easily the weakest one of the lot. And I've played everything other than Sonic to some level, so if anything was weaker, I'd have seen it. It's doable, and that's always the big bone of contention, but "doable" and "doable well" are two separate things. Practically every other Blaster I've tried has been faster, easier and safer.
I'm not knocking your playstyle or opinions, so please don't take anything I have said as an attack. I am just trying to open some eyes to a different point of view, and show the usefulness of some powers. What I have found, is that yes, some of the other blasters may be faster through levelling process, but I disagree on easier and safer. A lot of it comes down to the player and playstyle, but I have found the set to be reliable, surviveable, and is the one blaster I have played that made most it's career without a single faceplant (I said most, we all have our days). I never found my Archery/Devices to be weak, and find myself able to hold my own with other blasters.

I was always a big fan of trying to take something others viewed as weak, and trying to make something of it. Hell, back in the day when Fire and Invulnerable tanks were kings of the hill, I was rocking and rolling with and Ice/Ice tank and seeing some good success and results, and this was when Ice/Ice was literally the bottom of the barrel.

In all reality though, Once GR comes out I will find myself playing Blasters less and less, and Corruptors more and more (I still prefer being blueside though), because I have found my Fire/Kin corruptor tears through things fast than any blaster I have ever played, and I really do prefer that combo of a toon that can blast with a good dose of defender style buffs/debuffs. Although, the fun factor of my archery/devices will always bring me back for more.


 

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Originally Posted by Nova Knight View Post
1) The firing sequence seems to be activated by proximity. Is this the case? If so, how close do enemies need to get before the drone starts firing?

2) When the drone self-destructs, does this explosion inflict any damage on nearby baddies or is is just for dramatic effect?
1) I personally don't know the exact distance you have to be for Gunnie to start firing, I've never tested it. Normally I'll summon him, move into attack position, and he'll do his thing. It's probably less than the full distance of snap shot, but not in melee range, and once he starts, he has a pretty good range. Someone with a definitive answer care to chime in?

2) As for the explosion bit, I've never tested it nor paid attention to what happens to mobs around him when he blows up. Setting that test up is a bit of headache, and it wouldn't really be a reliable way of damaging the baddies even if it did, especially on a hover build, since you are normally above the melee.

3) Yes, I refer to Gunnie as a he, but that by no means makes it male=P