City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

An Arch Nemesis

Airborne_Ninja

By Airborne_Ninja,
Posted on: 2010-01-28 15:34 in Suggestions and Ideas

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton View Post
The Nemesis system sucks in CO because of poor implementation and not because it's a bad idea. AE lets my character "pretend" to have an arch-enemy, not really have one.
Hence why I said the system in CO is terrible and not the idea of a nemesis system in general. However it is unlikely that the developers would put more resources towards a system that is basically "AE but in zones" when more pressing issues are at hand.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborne_Ninja View Post
Hence why I said the system in CO is terrible and not the idea of a nemesis system in general. However it is unlikely that the developers would put more resources towards a system that is basically "AE but in zones" when more pressing issues are at hand.
I fail to see how it's AE in zones...

I think AE is awesome but when you create your nemesis and put him on a map and play the mission, well I imagine it's like watching a movie you directed... you already know what's going to happen so even if it's entertaining there's nothing to keep you on your toes.

The way I understand CO's is that the nemesis attacks you randomly, how is that like AE?

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, even with Rikti drops, banners or whatever else there's nothing that you randomly HAVE to deal with... sure you can go fight rikti minions if they drop in steel canyon but you never have to and it takes absolutely zero effort to avoid it if you want to.

Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute

 

Posted

IIRC Positron mentioned this as a possibility ages ago. It is a fun idea, yet I am inclined to agree with those that AE is the route to go in terms of creating an Arch Nemesis for your toons. The player has much more creative control over their design and story than they would if this was "pre-programmed". Good suggestion though.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA View Post
IIRC Positron mentioned this as a possibility ages ago. It is a fun idea, yet I am inclined to agree with those that AE is the route to go in terms of creating an Arch Nemesis for your toons. The player has much more creative control over their design and story than they would if this was "pre-programmed". Good suggestion though.
Forgive my ignorance on both of these... I've never played CO and have yet to get into AE other than playing through a few random arcs.

But my understanding of AE is that you can create the scripting and overall design of your nemesis and do whatever but isn't that essentially pre-programming? The way I envision this is basically you create your nemesis and throw them in an arc that you create. So if you go through it it's not as though you're going to be surprised but what he says, does or even how he fights you, is that not correct?

The way I understand CO's nemesis system is that you do have creative control over your nemesis and can create everything about them: costume, powers, origin, personality etc. What is not pre-programmed (again the way I've read it) is that when they attack you it's not a scripted event during a mission, it's completely random. That's what I really think this game could use more of.

Again, I could be wrong on all of this as I have no firsthand knowledge of either but the above is what I understand to be the case.

I'm not saying CO is better because of this but it's a really good idea (regardless of where it originally came from) and I think it would add something this game really needs.

Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radubadu View Post
costume, powers, origin, personality
Yes sorta, not really, maybe, not really.

Id rather not be surprised by a nemesis encounter.
Being surprised means hes acting like a retard or saying something stupid and over the top and completely unfitting to his character.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborne_Ninja View Post
Yes sorta, not really, maybe, not really.

Id rather not be surprised by a nemesis encounter.
Being surprised means hes acting like a retard or saying something stupid and over the top and completely unfitting to his character.
So you'd rather create one in AE... play the arc and know exactly where he is and what he's going to say/do? Where's the fun in that?

I'm not saying it would have to be exactly like CO's, in fact I don't even know exactly how CO's is set up... that's just my take on what I've read of it.

Don't get me wrong I love this game but am I really the only one that finds it predictable? I've only done one TF since I started (I honestly don't remember which one) and it was basically just a series of missions that were no different than the missions I'd done to get to whatever level I was at the time, I expected something really different. I'm sure I'll look to do more as I decide to go badge hunting but it just seemed like it was more of the same. I spent most of last weekend taking down AVs and while each had it's own different little quirks there was nothing that made them stand out from each other to make the fights more interesting.

I understand that MMOs are ALL guilty of repetition in some way, shape or form... but I have to say out of all the ones I've played CoX seems to be the most guilty. I'm sure I'll finish lvling my fire/fire blaster to 50 and maybe one or two more toons after that but I honestly don't understand what keeps some people lvling that 10th or 11th toon to 50.

The above is absolutely a contradiction to another post I made just yesterday about easily seeing myself playing CoX for another 3 years (4 seems to be when I get "burnt out") but the more I think about it I don't know what could keep me playing that long.

Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute

 

Posted

How bout making an online nemesis? I have a nemesis, it's called CoX marketing and any developer involved with the i13 changes to pvp and removal of base raids.

Naturally i'm not the hero because only villains PvP. But I can still act as if i'm the victim of my nemesis's nefarious plot to rid the game of competitive pvp.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
everything can be done in the AE pretty much. so it cuts it.
I'm sorry, but I don't think this is a good excuse to keep any content from the game.

"Mission Architect can make mission arcs, so the devs shouldn't make any new arcs ever!"

"Mission Architect can create new enemy groups, so the devs shouldn't make any new groups ever!"

"Mission Architect can create new AVs, so the devs should stop making any new AVs!"

Oh look, you just used Mission Architect to destroy Going Rogue. Thanks a lot.

 

Posted

I've always just used AE to create Nemesis Arcs.

to TO THE END!
Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!

 

Posted

An Arch Nemesis feature would be a nice addition, but there would be a number of variables that I would want to be able to customize myself. Radubadu's desire for randomness in implementation brings up another point. I realize this is a seeming contradiction, but I want to be able to control the randomness. How about a contact similar to the contact that allows you to set your difficulty, where they ask you the following questions at any time:

1. Do you want to change the appearance/gender/powersets/dialog of your Arch Nemesis? Yes/No (Selecting "yes" would take you to a character creation screen)
2. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to attack you randomly in missions? Yes/No
3. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to attack you randomly while on teams? Yes/No
4. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to randomly ambush you while outside of mission instances? Yes/No

And so on.

Being attacked at random by an Arch Nemesis is fun...if that's what you want at the time, on that particular character. Being able to control the degree of randomness would keep it fun AND prevent it from becoming a major PITA when you want consistancy. If I don't really want an Arch Nemesis for a particular character, having one that pops up randomly would be like having an annoying cousin that keeps popping over at your house for dinner. And as always, customization is key, and tweaking your Arch Nemesis should be encouraged at any point in your character's development.

Otherwise, this feature would get on my nerves pretty quickly. Do it right, or don't bother--half baked implementation would make using the AE as an alternative much more attractive.

Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika

 

Posted

Another consideration, that was noted way back in paper-and-dice Champions:
One player gets the points for the Hunted, but everyone has to fight them.

Now, obviously we don't build our characters with points here, but the axiom still applies: if I join a team, I have to put up with the Arch Nemeses of all of my teammates ambushing us at the tram or just inside the mission door. Some of which may be egregiously difficult for my build/AT, or just... lame. (If I see the villainous "afdsgafds" coming at me, with Kin/Rad powers and an eye-hurting random costume, I'm going to be reaching for the "Quit" button real fast.)

My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radubadu View Post
So you'd rather create one in AE... play the arc and know exactly where he is and what he's going to say/do? Where's the fun in that?

I'm not saying it would have to be exactly like CO's, in fact I don't even know exactly how CO's is set up... that's just my take on what I've read of it.

Don't get me wrong I love this game but am I really the only one that finds it predictable? I've only done one TF since I started (I honestly don't remember which one) and it was basically just a series of missions that were no different than the missions I'd done to get to whatever level I was at the time, I expected something really different. I'm sure I'll look to do more as I decide to go badge hunting but it just seemed like it was more of the same. I spent most of last weekend taking down AVs and while each had it's own different little quirks there was nothing that made them stand out from each other to make the fights more interesting.

I understand that MMOs are ALL guilty of repetition in some way, shape or form... but I have to say out of all the ones I've played CoX seems to be the most guilty. I'm sure I'll finish lvling my fire/fire blaster to 50 and maybe one or two more toons after that but I honestly don't understand what keeps some people lvling that 10th or 11th toon to 50.

The above is absolutely a contradiction to another post I made just yesterday about easily seeing myself playing CoX for another 3 years (4 seems to be when I get "burnt out") but the more I think about it I don't know what could keep me playing that long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solicio View Post
An Arch Nemesis feature would be a nice addition, but there would be a number of variables that I would want to be able to customize myself. Radubadu's desire for randomness in implementation brings up another point. I realize this is a seeming contradiction, but I want to be able to control the randomness. How about a contact similar to the contact that allows you to set your difficulty, where they ask you the following questions at any time:

1. Do you want to change the appearance/gender/powersets/dialog of your Arch Nemesis? Yes/No (Selecting "yes" would take you to a character creation screen)
2. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to attack you randomly in missions? Yes/No
3. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to attack you randomly while on teams? Yes/No
4. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to randomly ambush you while outside of mission instances? Yes/No

And so on.

Being attacked at random by an Arch Nemesis is fun...if that's what you want at the time, on that particular character. Being able to control the degree of randomness would keep it fun AND prevent it from becoming a major PITA when you want consistancy. If I don't really want an Arch Nemesis for a particular character, having one that pops up randomly would be like having an annoying cousin that keeps popping over at your house for dinner. And as always, customization is key, and tweaking your Arch Nemesis should be encouraged at any point in your character's development.

Otherwise, this feature would get on my nerves pretty quickly. Do it right, or don't bother--half baked implementation would make using the AE as an alternative much more attractive.
^both of these

AE is a great way to create pretty much whatever you want in game. But a nemesis arc created by you would have *zero* personal impact on how you play the game. Im talking about having an entity lurking in the shadows or out to get you whenever you play, should you so desire it.

Should you be able to control every aspect of it? absolutley, as this is one thing this game does really well. as i said before, i dont wanna see my nemesis but once every few levels. But when i do, it needs to be a big deal.

I also had another idea on how this could be implemented. Rather than having a contact or making your nemesis origin specific, what if you had to complete or participate in an event to unlock this feature, if you wanted to? A week or so ago i read a post on here about a break out event at the zig. Well, suppose your nemesis came from completing the event. The storyline could be something like "you defeated x number of villains, who were actually working for this guy (your nemesis) and now he's out for blood" After you unlock this feature, maybe there would be a ppd contact who "needs a description of this new supervillain, as you've heard him described by others (your nemesis)" and doing that for him would launch you into the character creator, where you would flesh out the looks and behavior.

Adding a couple of options as to how much you want to see him/her/it wouldn't be hard to stick in with the existing field analyst options.

Just a few (hopefully not half baked) ideas

I dont have a siggy.....sad huh

 

Posted

did someone say Nemesis ... >.> <.<..... this sounds interesting...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyroguy View Post
^both of these
I also had another idea on how this could be implemented. Rather than having a contact or making your nemesis origin specific, what if you had to complete or participate in an event to unlock this feature, if you wanted to? A week or so ago i read a post on here about a break out event at the zig. Well, suppose your nemesis came from completing the event. The storyline could be something like "you defeated x number of villains, who were actually working for this guy (your nemesis) and now he's out for blood" After you unlock this feature, maybe there would be a ppd contact who "needs a description of this new supervillain, as you've heard him described by others (your nemesis)" and doing that for him would launch you into the character creator, where you would flesh out the looks and behavior.
Adding storyline into this feature = awesome. I like it!

Quote:
Adding a couple of options as to how much you want to see him/her/it wouldn't be hard to stick in with the existing field analyst options.
Good deal!

Quote:
Just a few (hopefully not half baked) ideas
They seem fully cooked to me, and I like how it smells coming out of the oven.

Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika

 

Posted

Okay, I've glanced through the thread and I gotta point out a couple little things.

The Personal Nemesis idea... has been on the CoH drawing table since day 1. It was the original idea behind the Zigg IN-game. Positron was working on it when Cryptic and NCsoft exchanged ownership of CoH. The problem is the tech was under development with in Cryptic, not NCsoft. So when Cryptic left the game *Making trolling whistle sound* the tech went with it. Guess why it ended up in CO?

The AE is not an end, it's a test bed. Just like Cimerorans were a test bed for a shields powerset, AE is the test bed for Player Created content. We can already create our own enemies... boy does that ever sound like a step into a philosophical debate... but we can create our own enemies in AE. We just got Powerset color customization. Chances are we'll be looking at minion customization next followed by a more advanced Powerset customization system (changing the actual animations of the powers perhaps?). I wouldn't be surprised if at some point They did finish the revamped Nemesis system and implement it.



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solicio View Post
An Arch Nemesis feature would be a nice addition, but there would be a number of variables that I would want to be able to customize myself. Radubadu's desire for randomness in implementation brings up another point. I realize this is a seeming contradiction, but I want to be able to control the randomness. How about a contact similar to the contact that allows you to set your difficulty, where they ask you the following questions at any time:

1. Do you want to change the appearance/gender/powersets/dialog of your Arch Nemesis? Yes/No (Selecting "yes" would take you to a character creation screen)
2. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to attack you randomly in missions? Yes/No
3. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to attack you randomly while on teams? Yes/No
4. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to randomly ambush you while outside of mission instances? Yes/No

And so on.

Being attacked at random by an Arch Nemesis is fun...if that's what you want at the time, on that particular character. Being able to control the degree of randomness would keep it fun AND prevent it from becoming a major PITA when you want consistancy. If I don't really want an Arch Nemesis for a particular character, having one that pops up randomly would be like having an annoying cousin that keeps popping over at your house for dinner. And as always, customization is key, and tweaking your Arch Nemesis should be encouraged at any point in your character's development.

Otherwise, this feature would get on my nerves pretty quickly. Do it right, or don't bother--half baked implementation would make using the AE as an alternative much more attractive.
I like this.
However;

No to random attack outside when on teams.
Why? Well, for one thing, Zone debt is higher than mission debt. Getting ganked by someones silly made Nemesis en-route to the mission doesnt sound like fun. Random ambushes outside are ok when they are small groups of minions and stuff (tailor mish, etc) Others? Not so.

T'be honest, the mechanics for this are already in-game. They use it in Kheldians with Shadow Cysts and Void Stalkers/Quantums. Replace a part of the mob with an EB. Or maybe replace one random middle/back mob with the EB and their selected minion group.

I would say no to AV level Nemeses, simply for balance sakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
I would say no to AV level Nemeses, simply for balance sakes.
I wouldn't mind getting an AV Nemesis is the owner has "AV" set in the mission. Curtesy would dictate that he inform the team that they may run into him in mish as an AV. If we follow the AE criteria, AV would be the only way for your nemesis to have access to his full range of powers (IIRC).

"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton View Post
I wouldn't mind getting an AV Nemesis is the owner has "AV" set in the mission. Curtesy would dictate that he inform the team that they may run into him in mish as an AV. If we follow the AE criteria, AV would be the only way for your nemesis to have access to his full range of powers (IIRC).
EBs also get full range of powers. So do Bosses, for that matter. The only difference is EB-AV damage and health/etc scales.

I say for balance sake; if it was to be implemented as a random spawn, running into an AV halfway through an arc or something would kinda through out any sort of plan. Not that thats a bad thing, but a tad too much. If you run into, say, a Ballista halfway through an arc, thats fairly standard (if nasty) fare. A random AV would be a whole different ballgame, especially with some of the sets they have acess too.

Either that, or lock them into being a certain AT. That way you dont get any Dark/Kin AVs, or some of the more broken combinations. All at player level stats and more, remember.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
EBs also get full range of powers. So do Bosses, for that matter. The only difference is EB-AV damage and health/etc scales.

I say for balance sake; if it was to be implemented as a random spawn, running into an AV halfway through an arc or something would kinda through out any sort of plan. Not that thats a bad thing, but a tad too much. If you run into, say, a Ballista halfway through an arc, thats fairly standard (if nasty) fare. A random AV would be a whole different ballgame, especially with some of the sets they have acess too.

Either that, or lock them into being a certain AT. That way you dont get any Dark/Kin AVs, or some of the more broken combinations. All at player level stats and more, remember.
A valid point. As are the concerns about running into the nemesis' while on a team.

I definitely think that there only should ever be one players nemesis per mission while teamed. Honestly, I don't like the idea of having them randomly appear in team missions at all, but Thats probably because I just haven't thought too much of how to do it right.

I also don't think your nemesis should attack you outside, for no apparent reason either. At least not very often. If you are led into a trap, or were ambushed by some of his or her minions, that's a different story. But your personal nemesis shouldn't risk an open confrontation all the time, as that would get rather tedious, and would personally make me wonder how in the world he kept escaping jail time

And I definitely think that The at of your nemesis should be limited, a defender probably shouldn't have a tank as their arch enemy. Unless they really know what they're doing. Thus was kinda my idea with the point system, every time your unable to stop your nemesis, they Get stronger. Perhaps this could be tied to whatever crime they were commiting. Let him get away with a bank robbery, he gets more money and is able to fund more troops, turning him into a mastermind. Fail to prevent him from stealing an item of power, now his resistance to smashing/lethal goes up, making him a stronger tanker. (I hope this is making sense, I'm typing on my iPod ) a point system like this would let your nemesis evolve based directly on your actions, leaving you in total control (admittedly, I need to think more on this)

I dont have a siggy.....sad huh

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solicio View Post
An Arch Nemesis feature would be a nice addition, but there would be a number of variables that I would want to be able to customize myself. Radubadu's desire for randomness in implementation brings up another point. I realize this is a seeming contradiction, but I want to be able to control the randomness. How about a contact similar to the contact that allows you to set your difficulty, where they ask you the following questions at any time:

1. Do you want to change the appearance/gender/powersets/dialog of your Arch Nemesis? Yes/No (Selecting "yes" would take you to a character creation screen)
2. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to attack you randomly in missions? Yes/No
3. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to attack you randomly while on teams? Yes/No
4. Do you want your Arch Nemesis to randomly ambush you while outside of mission instances? Yes/No

And so on.

Being attacked at random by an Arch Nemesis is fun...if that's what you want at the time, on that particular character. Being able to control the degree of randomness would keep it fun AND prevent it from becoming a major PITA when you want consistancy. If I don't really want an Arch Nemesis for a particular character, having one that pops up randomly would be like having an annoying cousin that keeps popping over at your house for dinner. And as always, customization is key, and tweaking your Arch Nemesis should be encouraged at any point in your character's development.

Otherwise, this feature would get on my nerves pretty quickly. Do it right, or don't bother--half baked implementation would make using the AE as an alternative much more attractive.

Agreed. I think having some control of the randomness would be necessary especially in regards to teaming. Personally I would leave it on all the time except for when teaming.

Another idea for this system if the devs ever pursue it is to incorporate it into new arcs where you're trucking along in the 3rd or 4th mission of an arc and holy crap (generic nemesis name) is here. Or maybe getting a random pop up message from an npc (provided you're not teamed) that your nemesis is doing some random bad deed and it's up to you to stop him. I would personally really want that aspect to work like it does in the movies where you kill... ahem arrest all of his/her minions first then it's just the two of you. I honestly can't think of an idea with more potential.

Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute

 

Posted

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...63#post2600263

I think we have it. No details sadly but I'm excited! Although... not quite a nemesis from the sounds of it... but it's a start!

Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radubadu View Post
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...63#post2600263

I think we have it. No details sadly but I'm excited! Although... not quite a nemesis from the sounds of it... but it's a start!
wow! Good find!

I really hope that this is indeed the start of a personal nemesis system. I'm not expecting it to absolutely killer when first implemented, but hopefully thru threads like this eventualy a nemesis will be a reality!

Man, I really hope that's what they have in mind....

I dont have a siggy.....sad huh