Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Pyroguy
i agree, actually.
But something does need to be done. i can see now that having pvp only rewards, in effect, is a bad idea, but without them, i really dont see any way to add a point to going and pvping, other than for having a new experience in game. and if there is never a point, minus adding zone-only items (as theyve already tried) i think the devs are SOL If someone can refresh my memory, what was implemented in i13 that changed pvp? just the IO enhancements? |
Oh Man! There's a can of worms.
Several things were changed in i13, not all of them bad - but most.
1. Diminishing returns - Damage/Acc/Def/Resistance/Heals All have Diminishing returns on them. To put it like this: My invul tank running Unstoppable + Arch Mage + Psi Accolade + all my toggles puts me at about 55 Resist to all.
2. Supression - In short, every attack causes you to move at a snails pace and every attack that hits you causes you to move at a snails pace. Heals also supress movement
3. Damage normalization - Not a BAD idea, but completely implemented wrong. All attacks were modified to have the same DPA. So, long casting attacks do a lot of damage and quick firing attacks do little. This lead to powers like Flurry or Jumpkick having more damage than Blaze. Also, Ice Blast and Flairs have more damage than their Tier 6 powers, Bitter Ice Blast and Blaze.
4. Mez Protection removed and replaced with resistance. This turns everyone into a controller because any mez done by any AT will mez everyone. Mezzes also only last about 2-8 seconds..depending on if they are powerboosted or done by a dominator. There is no blocking the mez effect, you are basically stuck in place for X ammount of time until you die or phase.
Misc. Items -Range cap boosted, -Slow cap boosted, Fly now has to be debuffed with multiple webnades/powers to be grounded, Villain epics changed to have more useful powers, Blasters 10%unresistable damage removed, Defender unresistable debuffs removed, The only unresisted damage is Stalker Crits (As far as I know). Assassins strike nerfed in damage.
Thats all I can think of.
Quote:
You say "integrated within the game proper" but I hear "effectively forced PVP" and if you think PVP as is is "impopular", it'll look like an open-armed embrace compared to the response to any suggestion that PvP should be crammed down everyone's throats so we'll learn to like it or leave...
|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
As it stands I believe PvP will always be unpopular within CoX until PvP is truly integrated within the game proper.
|
My characters - all on Virtue.
Gabe's Internet [censored] Theory
RMT spammers WILL steal your credit card.
Quote:
Hear what you want to hear. I don't even PvP myself but it's obvious that unless the ruleset was integrated and working well from the beginning any PvP rules changes makes it harder to get PvErs interested in the PvP game.|
Originally Posted by kusanagi
You say "integrated within the game proper" but I hear "effectively forced PVP" and if you think PVP as is is "impopular", it'll look like an open-armed embrace compared to the response to any suggestion that PvP should be crammed down everyone's throats so we'll learn to like it or leave...
|
If you want to see it as being negative you should really take a look at the long term survival of the game itself and be a little less paranoid about who and what PvP is and does for MMOs and this game in particular.
1. If you think that players do not get better and more familiar with the game over time, then I suppose you will also believe that people will never get bored of running the same content over and over.
2. Players who are good at the PvE game will chew through content faster than the developers can ever make it.
3. AE hasn't been able to become the center of new content for a variety of reasons.
4. PvE players who reach the end game have nothing better to do but than to get bored and leave the game, even allowing for altitus.
5. PvP can be a creative outlet for players who have mastered the PvE game to find a more challenging opponent/game. PvP allows end game players to remain engaged within the game and not require mountains of new content to be made for them.
6. Increased barriers to PvP from the PvE game have thoroughly sidelined the PvP part of CoX.
PvP players can be hardcore players but that also means they are the antithesis of the casual player, they are the ones who will go all out and tend to be just a loyal base as the rest of the community, but one that doesn't scream for new content every issue (maybe every 2nd issue).
Therefore PvP should:
A. PvP play should minimize the amount of griefing and trash talk to allow players a decent experience even when they lose.
B. PvP rules need to be integrated with PvE rules such that making a decent PvE toon will also ensure a decent level of competitiveness within PvP. This doesn't mean forcing PvP rules into the PvE game but blending the rules so then PvP isn't horribly broken when using PvE rules or seem like an entirely foreign game.
C. PvP should not be seen as an adjunct only to an end game scenario but portrayed seamlessly within the game such that players get adequate exposure and learning to lessen the divide between PvE and PvP (that is currently a chasm)
Everything is about lowering the barrier to entry to fun and competitive play for PvP and PvE, where is the harm in that? No one was asking to make AP and KR into PvP zones, so if you want to jump right into the hyperbole mode and hop around like you have a broken wing you're more than welcome to.
I suppose if you want to bring up the tired old reason that PvP was never introduced with the game so somehow it has a lesser reason to be integrated within the game, we can always go back to non-IO, insta one-shot, City of Blasters rules.
And then we should take away Striga, Croatoa, Cimerora, New Faultline, RWZ, The Hollows, Trick Arrow/Arrow, Cold Domination, Shields, Dual Blades, Mental blast, Willpower, Sonic, Plant Control, capes, auras, badges, the Shadow Shard, Eden Trial, Exemping, SSK, level pacting, multiple builds, Peacebringers, Warshades, Epics, Ouroborous, Flashback, Auction Houses, Pocket D, Day Jobs, Vet rewards, all new costumes and emotes, wings, enhancement packs, architect entertainment, SG bases, global channels, merits of all kinds, and of course all the PvP zones and rewards and of course the entire City of Villains as well.
Because every single one of those items were not included with issue 1.
Based on the current pvp population and what it would cost to "fix" pvp is not cost effective.
No amount of "well if you fix it they will come" is going to revive that system,the PVE crowd isn't going to go for it and it isn't going to attract them to play it.
I13 was the death knell for pvp in this game,yea some ppl still play,but,a large chunk of the pvp community left.Coupled with the lose of base raids,it continues to spiral downward.Band-aids have been put in place(ie;pvp io drops)but that is a joke in itself.
I've tried it and don't much care for it,of course I wasn't too impressed with pre-I13 pvp either.
It falls to this folks pvp is a dying animal in this game,no amount of hoping,wishing,suggestions,or what you think might revive it is going to happen.
It falls to cold hard cash and numbers,neither of which supports pvp.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by kusanagi
You say "integrated within the game proper" but I hear "effectively forced PVP" and if you think PVP as is is "impopular", it'll look like an open-armed embrace compared to the response to any suggestion that PvP should be crammed down everyone's throats so we'll learn to like it or leave...
|
ok you people just wont get it... so stubborn you wont read whats in front of your face... i keep telling all of you "THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO FORCE PVP UPON PVE PLAYERS!!!"
in fact as i said before 70-80% of the content in this idea is new zones, foes and story content for pve players...
i think people are being selfish though... i'm sorry so only pve players are allowed to get something they like??? OMG people wtf!!! I am a pve player trying to throw a little something extra into what is essentially a pve update for the pvp'ers lets give the poor bastards a little love for once!!! I threw in an extra tidbit into an idea for the pvp players that i think (as a pve player myself) that pve players might actually enjoy as well...
Oh and to those saying it's to hard the devs will never do it.... look back two years... thats what everyone said about color tintable powers... lets hear the devs say it is to hard before deciding for them please...
but hey i'm trying to shove pvp down pve players... not like i'm giving pve players a diferent financial option that is non pvp to get 99% of the stuff in this idea.... not like i added 4 freakin new zones that are pve only to the idea....
seriously please read everything thoroughly and attempt to understand before going on a rant on how i am trying to force something upon someone...
{{NOTICE: this is not directed specifically at the poster i quoted... but rather that post was merely a general topic starting area for my rant}}
Ji Wan Ti lvl 50 Stalker on Freedom
The Seventh Mu lvl 40 Brute on Freedom
Vinestrone lvl 40 Plant Dom on Freedom
Leader of Ninja/Samurai SG: Buzoku Kira
www.atercia.com
The problem you're running into here Cryon, is that the PvE community doesn't give a damn about PvP.
The PvP community, on the other hand, could care less if there is more PvE content, because the ones who are here for PvP usually PL their characters up in order to PvP. More PvE content is wasted on them unless it gives them a more efficient way to PL their PvP characters while skipping as much content as possible.
It is pretty rare to find players that are equally interested in both sides of the game.
Giving the hardcore PvP crowd more PvE stuff to do is like giving steak sauce to a vegetarian. It's nice that you thought of them, but what you're giving them will never be used.
Giving them a more efficient way to PL would be a nice thing to do for them, but goes completely against the developer's goals, and as such is extremely unlikely to happen.
Also, every time the dev's attention has turned to PvP, it has generally been made worse. Most PvPers would say the devs ignoring it is better than them trying to "fix" it again.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
This is more of a half and half statement. I consider myself part of the PvP community, and I would love to see more PvE content as well. It gives me something else to do while I level up those characters. Some others feel the same as I do, while some don't.
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The PvP community, on the other hand, could care less if there is more PvE content, because the ones who are here for PvP usually PL their characters up in order to PvP. More PvE content is wasted on them unless it gives them a more efficient way to PL their PvP characters while skipping as much content as possible. |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Thank you empire 
i had no idea the devs had...uh...."fixed" so many things. Honestly, i wouldn't touch pvp now in its current state. That being said,
Respectfully, i feel that
The general opinion i see here is that people feel that pvp should be taken out back and shot, or left to die, which is kinda sad thats the devs have gotten it to that point, as there is potential for some really cool ways for it to be used.
I remember when the arena first came out, which was issue 4 if i recall, not too far into the games development. Cool! Neat! everyone said. fighting each other was fun, back in the day, albeit unbalanced.
But then nothing was ever really done with it, it was just kind of there. Same with CoV. it launched, everyone had their day beating up vils and heroes alike, some "balancing" was done, and then the majority lost interest, either because they're blaster or controller couldn't kill a stalker/scrapper or brute/tanker (which is kinda like trying to kill an elephant with a bag of stones, and IMO should have been left the way it was, there are some things you just don't try to do as a certain AT) leading to the wretched state its in now. Why?
I am a hardcore PvE player, as i have stated before, But the idea of pvp really appeals to me. I think quite a bit of really awesome dynamics and content could be achieved thru the use of the pvp system. What about a mayhem or a safeguard where you try and stop another players rampaging villain or do-gooder hero? What about cross faction team battles?
Honestly, the OP's original idea is pretty intriguing to me, but just adding more stuff you can only get there just doesn't work, and really, that's the only incentive to go to one of these zones that anyone can seem to come up with right now. While i agree in some respects with the concept of having your character go to a pvp zone while leveling up, it cannot be forced upon people in any way, and some would view that as being forced. There already are "go see this security guy in xpvpzonex" missions to try and immerse you, There already are badges and IO's that you can only get from pvp zones, and they are generally hated.
Until pvp is fun and worth it, it will never, ever, be touched frequently by most players. With utmost respect, Cryon, you have some good ideas, i will give you that. But the core of your idea to come get people to pvp (the faction controllable stores) wont work. its just like adding pvp IO's.
The best thing i can think of IMO to "fix/revamp/resurrect" pvp, is to first, listen to the damn players and to their ideas (at least the ones who can coherently discuss it ) Come up with actual incentives to come and pvp, and then strip it down to what it was arena level, and build it up again slowly, issue by issue, listening to the players, and building a new system. This band-aid crap doesn't and will never work. Would there be outlash? you bet. Will it happen? Most likely not.
But what else is there to do but wipe the slate clean?
I dont have a siggy.....sad huh
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
This is more of a half and half statement. I consider myself part of the PvP community, and I would love to see more PvE content as well. It gives me something else to do while I level up those characters. Some others feel the same as I do, while some don't.
|
I was referring specifically to those players who do nothing BUT PvP.
There are at least a few I've seen in the PvP section who have stated that they hate the fact that they even have to PLAY PvE content to level their characters that they PvP with.
That's the "hardcore" crowd I was talking about. The ones who are here for PvP and nothing else. They are an extreme minority nowadays, granted, but they are still in existence.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Pyroguy
Thank you empire
i had no idea the devs had...uh...."fixed" so many things. Honestly, i wouldn't touch pvp now in its current state. That being said,Respectfully, i feel that The general opinion i see here is that people feel that pvp should be taken out back and shot, or left to die, which is kinda sad thats the devs have gotten it to that point, as there is potential for some really cool ways for it to be used. I remember when the arena first came out, which was issue 4 if i recall, not too far into the games development. Cool! Neat! everyone said. fighting each other was fun, back in the day, albeit unbalanced. But then nothing was ever really done with it, it was just kind of there. Same with CoV. it launched, everyone had their day beating up vils and heroes alike, some "balancing" was done, and then the majority lost interest, either because they're blaster or controller couldn't kill a stalker/scrapper or brute/tanker (which is kinda like trying to kill an elephant with a bag of stones, and IMO should have been left the way it was, there are some things you just don't try to do as a certain AT) leading to the wretched state its in now. Why? I am a hardcore PvE player, as i have stated before, But the idea of pvp really appeals to me. I think quite a bit of really awesome dynamics and content could be achieved thru the use of the pvp system. What about a mayhem or a safeguard where you try and stop another players rampaging villain or do-gooder hero? What about cross faction team battles? Honestly, the OP's original idea is pretty intriguing to me, but just adding more stuff you can only get there just doesn't work, and really, that's the only incentive to go to one of these zones that anyone can seem to come up with right now. While i agree in some respects with the concept of having your character go to a pvp zone while leveling up, it cannot be forced upon people in any way, and some would view that as being forced. There already are "go see this security guy in xpvpzonex" missions to try and immerse you, There already are badges and IO's that you can only get from pvp zones, and they are generally hated. Until pvp is fun and worth it, it will never, ever, be touched frequently by most players. With utmost respect, Cryon, you have some good ideas, i will give you that. But the core of your idea to come get people to pvp (the faction controllable stores) wont work. its just like adding pvp IO's. The best thing i can think of IMO to "fix/revamp/resurrect" pvp, is to first, listen to the damn players and to their ideas (at least the ones who can coherently discuss it ) Come up with actual incentives to come and pvp, and then strip it down to what it was arena level, and build it up again slowly, issue by issue, listening to the players, and building a new system. This band-aid crap doesn't and will never work. Would there be outlash? you bet. Will it happen? Most likely not.But what else is there to do but wipe the slate clean? |
PvP in this game has always been an oddity. There are several reasons why I think it didn't take off, but the two main ones was the unbalanced nature of certain powersets (IE my Cool neato Superman clone gets absolutely destroyed) and the intense speed at which the action happened. City of Heroes was, and still is, the fastest MMO PvP engine available. Most MMOs only have horizontal movement for their PvP, City of Heroes had Omnidirectional action.
The problem, or benefit in my opinion, with the fast nature of PvP is that it created a competitive game with a very Large Skill Gap. This meant that if you worked hard, practiced, and actually learned something from your beatings, you would then eventually be able to compete.
Most people were either turned off at how quickly they were destroyed or were turned off by the attitudes of the people that destroyed them. Either way, these people didn't really feel the need to expand their knowledge of the system to try and adapt to the challenges they were facing.
My experience with the old PvP started out this way. When I was leveling up my tank, I would get absolutely destroyed by stalkers in Sirens. It wasn't until I joined a group that PvP'd regularly for fun - just 1v1s or team matches against each other. That I was able to refine my tactics and learn where I failed the first time. But, it took a lot of work and like-minded people who ended up learning as they went. Our group turned a lot of people who hate PvP into an activity that they enjoyed towards the end of i12. We would base raid and had lots of fun. There were several comments from people saying how they never though PvP in this game could be so fun and indepth.
PvP 2.0, IMO, took the game in the wrong direction. I personally think that all rulesets should be completely reverted to the PvE settings. The experiment from i13-i16 was a good way to learn how not to implement changes. Its good sometimes to learn what doesn't work. Perhaps we can take what we have learned from these past couple issues and fix the true problem with PvP in this game.
Here's a short list of problems that existed in the old (And most still exist in the new) PvP:
1. Melee is unusable outside of stalkers
2. Certain powers are required to PvP
3. Certain powersets are completely worthless to PvP with
4. Concept builds, even in the hands of a competent PvPer, still get destroyed.
Ive offered up several suggestions on how to fix the old, there is a good running list on the PvP boards started by MacSkull.
At this stage, I think any changes to PvP to allow me to enjoy it again won't happen. And that makes me a sad panda
TL
R - Fix the PvP Engine before you add Rims to the Car
Ok so i think it is pretty well established, that many people would love to see some change to PvP whether its because they are PvP'rs looking for better PvP content or PvE'rs that would just like to see some PvP that they would enjoy...
and there are also those that hate and despise PvP of any sorts for whatever reason....
NOW LETS STOP ARGUING WHOES SIDE IS MORE RIGHT AND WORK ON SOME BLOODY IDEAS FOLKS!!!!
i started this thread as a means to come up with a feasable idea that both the players and game devs would like... so please lets discus how this idea can be refurnished and polished up!
Ji Wan Ti lvl 50 Stalker on Freedom
The Seventh Mu lvl 40 Brute on Freedom
Vinestrone lvl 40 Plant Dom on Freedom
Leader of Ninja/Samurai SG: Buzoku Kira
www.atercia.com
well, 3 places not to start are:
1: rewards do nothing to draw people to PvP. this has been proven.
2: you can not control what people say in PvP. that is the wonders of PvP rules, there aren't any really.
3: do not force PvP in a PvE environment. they should be kept separate.
now build from there.
The problem is that the game started with no PvP at all, and remained that way for a while. The majority of the playerbase, especially the veterans, are not playing to PvP. That isn't what drew them to the game, and they could give the south end of a northbound rat if it even exists.
Adding a bunch of new PvP stuff to do will not, and never will, draw in players who are just plain not interested in PvP. If you start forcing those players to PvP in order to get PvE rewards a lot of them will quit the game, rather than be forced into something they don't enjoy.
I occasionally PvP and I enjoy it, because it is optional. If I were forced into it to gain PvE rewards it would quickly lose it's appeal to me. I didn't have any villains at all for a long time because one of the requirements for an accolade was to spend 5 hours in a PvP zone, whether I was interested in PvPing with that character or not.
We will probably see some kind of PvP additions to the game, butnothing nearly as elaborate as the OP outlines. The devs are very unlikely to spend that amount of time and resources on something that only 2% of the game population will use. Especially when it is time and resources that can be used to make content that 95% of the population will use.
The bottom line is, any MMO is a business first. If it did not make money, it would not exist. Pleasing the most people they can with their decisions is how an MMO continues to make money. Look what happened to Star Wars Galaxies, and Tabula Rasa. One is on life support after several bad decisions drove off most of the players, and the other no longer exists in any form. Spending resources on something that that small of a percentage of the playerbase will use just isn't a smart business decision.
I understand that CoH doesn't exist to please me, it exists to earn NCSoft money. Pleasing the players is just the best way to do that. Force-feeding PvP to a playerbase that has demonstrated that they aren't interested in it (by completely ignoring it) is not going to please them.
But something does need to be done. i can see now that having pvp only rewards, in effect, is a bad idea, but without them, i really dont see any way to add a point to going and pvping, other than for having a new experience in game. and if there is never a point, minus adding zone-only items (as theyve already tried) i think the devs are SOL
If someone can refresh my memory, what was implemented in i13 that changed pvp? just the IO enhancements?
I dont have a siggy.....sad huh