Something like Absorp pain would be hugely over powered at a 1:1 ratio.
Near zero end cost, recharge 15secs base (down to 8 ish with 3 SO) and 669 base heal (so 1304 with slotting)
For comparison headsplitter has a similar recharge, 13.5 end cost and 163 base damage (318 with slotting)
Empaths have attacks as their secondary, there is no need to 'heal' the enemies for damage.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Hold still. Lemme use my Enema Arrow.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I'm mainly surprised that your D&D group hasn't heard of reversible Cleric spells, I guess you haven't played in an anti-hero party of adventurers. One time springs to mind when I did, our group consisted of an all Evil (choose your variety) party of a Cleric, Thief and assorted Fighters. We'd been sent to investigate an ancient temple in the mountains and when we arrived thought it prudent to send in our Thief to scout things out. So the Thief sneaks off while the rest of us wait outside. He's been inside for all of a minute when next thing we know there is a huge explosion, alarms ring out and smoke pours from the temple entrance.
The Thief returned to the group with tail between his legs obviously having achieved the opposite of a sneaky recon. Not only that, but he had the audacity to ask for healing. So my Evil Cleric obliged, in reverse. One Cause Serious Wounds spell later and the Thief was no more. The look of surprise on the players face was priceless.
As for your idea of reversible Heals in Co*, I think like Catwhoorg said, that it would require some serious balancing before it could be implemented. Perhaps in the meantime you could create a Dual-build with one designed for teamplay with the emphasis on heals, and one for soloplay where you've done as much as possible to lay it heavy on the attacks.
Now, Go, Play, Evil, D&D. 
K5K - The Killbot 5000
A Spanner In The Works Part One, ArcID: 336662, A Spanner In The Works Part Two, ArcID: 336665, Enter Japes, ArcID: 96001
In The Darkness Creeping, ArcID: 347709, When Dimensions Collide, ArcID: 412416.
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Awesome. |
Originally Posted by The_Killbot_5000
I'm mainly surprised that your D&D group hasn't heard of reversible Cleric spells, I guess you haven't played in an anti-hero party of adventurers. One time springs to mind when I did, our group consisted of an all Evil (choose your variety) party of a Cleric, Thief and assorted Fighters. We'd been sent to investigate an ancient temple in the mountains and when we arrived thought it prudent to send in our Thief to scout things out. So the Thief sneaks off while the rest of us wait outside. He's been inside for all of a minute when next thing we know there is a huge explosion, alarms ring out and smoke pours from the temple entrance.
The Thief returned to the group with tail between his legs obviously having achieved the opposite of a sneaky recon. Not only that, but he had the audacity to ask for healing. So my Evil Cleric obliged, in reverse. One Cause Serious Wounds spell later and the Thief was no more. The look of surprise on the players face was priceless. |
I don't know why, but that story reminds me of a session of Exalted I was playing about a year ago. The story was basically "Dragon-Blooded High School", with the players all acting as young Terrestrial Exalted Dynasts on the Blessed Isle.
The session I'm recalling was a field trip to the Heptagram (sorcerous secondary school). At one point during the trip, we were to witness some of the Heptagram students performing a routine deomstration of the Demon of the First Circle spell (the only demon-summoning spell that Terrestrials are capable of learning). Something went wrong (ie: Plot Hook), and rather than summoning an Erymanthoi (blood ape), they managed to summon Erembour, That Which Calls to the Shadows, seventh soul of the Ebon Dragon (a third circle demon). Those who hear Erembour's horn and cannot withstand its call are transformed into creatures of darkness, as the students who were performing the summoning were.
So, of course, the PCs entered into a fight scene with the newly spawned creatures of darkness, while (fortunately) Erembour stood back and watched the chaos.
At one point during the battle, one of the creatures rushed to attack me (a Fire aspect Dragon-Blooded, normally well known for quick tempers and combat prowess)
Storyteller: How do you defend yourself?
Me: I don't.
ST: What?
Me: I'm not going to do anything to defend myself. I'm standing in the creature's path glaring at it with my arms crossed.
ST: You realize if you take no action to defend yourself, you've got a DV of 0?
Me: Yes. But I'm expecting you to miss. And in any case, I've always got Third Dodge Excellency - Essence Resurgent as a backup plan. And if he still hits me, I can flare my anima and burn him up while he's in contact with me.
ST: Okay...
*ST rolls creature's attack*
ST: Um... *shows results of roll*
Triple botch. The creature not only failed to hit me as I stood there waiting for the blow, but the thing fumbled, tripped, impaled itself with its own claws, and died at my feet.
Normally in Exalted, you can get motes of Essence, temporary Willpower, or even experience points for being awesome ("In Exalted, there is no such thing as impossible. Merely varying levels of awesome"). The storyteller gave me an experience point for being so awesome I made him botch his roll.
Needless to say, I didn't push my luck for the remainder of the session. (Although the supernaturally potent alcohol that I had stolen from some alchemy students earlier proved to be an extremely useful asset during our escape from Hell after Erembour dragged us there...)
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Could work as a new Support set. I actually thought of a similar concept, like a 'Natural' martial art-like support set that had several powers with effects that were harmful when used on enemies and helpful on allies.
Basically, it was like a 'Pressure Point' support set that would be primarily short-ranged effects with some cone and PBAoE effects. Some of the effects were like:
-PBAoE -res and smash dmg on enemies/PBAoE +dmg and +ToHit on allies
-ST -def and -regen + smash dmg on enemies/ST ally +regen and small heal
-Cone knockdown and -ToHit/Ally +rech bonus
-ST -res, -ToHit, disorient and smash dmg/ST ally +res and +def
Hmm... You know, this is a pretty interesting concept, I have to say. It'd give support abilities an offensive role if the wielder so chose to use them. And if you give a heal both healing and damage, it becomes a question of what you want to slot for, as if you try to slot for everything, everything will suck. This could possibly work well with dual builds as a "solo vs. team" build, and it'd give support characters some decent fighting prowess.
Now we just need to figure out what we do about buff/debuffs and how we treat buffing one's self, and we're golden
Hmm... Heal Other turns into Harm Other. Protection bubbles turn into acceleration bubbles, fire shields start burning their targets and ice shields actually freeze them in place. I like it
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Umm, that's not really a "compromise" for your GM (other than his game, his rules) because that's how positive divine energy (now called "radiant" energy in 4E) is supposed to work. Even under DnD 3.0 or 3.5, or even before, your cleric could choose (generally at character creation, but occasionally later in-game) to Heal or Harm, depending on whether his/her diety would allow it.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Hi:
I was playing the old D&D (paper and dice) game last week end, and a player asked to use the reversable effect on cleric spells option. Basically this option allowed to use their heal spells to do damage instead of healing on enemy targets. Some of us were stunned at the request, and went rule "lawyering" and to our surprise it was there! The GM was not crazy about the concept, and compromized indicating that the heal could be used to damage undead monsters. |
In fact. my ex-husband played an anti-paladin that got revenge on another PC by selling him into the gladiatorial pits then as he turned away, clapping him on the shoulders in the reversal of a paladin's "laying on hands" (that PC had really screwecd over the party, to be expected given the campaign, but it was also appropriate to exact an over-the-top revenge).
In another case, a moderately high level cleric totally messed up the big fight against Undead by casting "Heal' (the 7th or 8th level cleric spell), which blew up the BBEG.
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Of course, since I am always thinking of CoX, I thought, would it not be cool if Defenders and Corruptors could have reversible effect powers, thus a heal would hurt the baddie, and the buff would debuff the baddie as well? What do you all think of the concept? |
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| I am sure some of the tankers who are used to being babied by the support class, may have an objection to this, but often I been in truly extraordinary good groups, with good AT builds that simply do not require the constant buffing to be very effective; sure they could be even better, but that would be at the expense of reducing the support to buff bot class status (think of the relation between a tank and the kin defender). |
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| In fact my Tankers and Scrappers are built not to require Speed Boost, he performance gained from a speed boost is inconsequential, and in fact I do worse cause I am jetting all over the map when chasing the mobs I have knocked the heck away from me. |
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I also been in great groups where my emp defender, hardly does any healing at all, the amount of control provided by controllers and dominators is really good and the tankers, scrappers and brutes are very good too. So I find myself with lots of time in my hands to do something else than playing the faithful buff/heal bot. |
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
Choosing to be a buff bot rather than using your blasts is a build choice you made, ar a playstyle choice at least. You have blasts and should be using them if your buffs are not needed. That's the "something else" you should be doing.
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I actually do go on the offensive when possible, but I don't have many attacks to begin with, for I do try to stock on team support abilities; then added to this is the pathetic damage Defenders do, so I was looking for ways to have other attacks, and perhaps have significantly rreasonable damage as well. So far if I gather correcly, Tank damage has a 20% reduction modifier to their damage compared to the no reduction of Blasters, a Defender has a 40% reduction to their damage. Frankly I thought the damage modifier was based on how much you sacrificed protections to have stronger hitting attacks; I can't understand how a Defender's damage could be made inferior to a Tanker's, unless I am mistaken Tankers do have much better damage resitance and defense abilities, and they have strong status effect resistances as well compared to the absolutely none of the Defender. Reason would indicate that Defenders should do more damage than a Tanker and less than a Blaster.
Stormy
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This is such a simplified version of how damage works in this game, it's essentially meaningless.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
So far if I gather correcly, Tank damage has a 20% reduction modifier to their damage compared to the no reduction of Blasters, a Defender has a 40% reduction to their damage.
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At each level, for each AT, there is both a Ranged_Damage modifier and a Melee_Damage modifier (there are also modifiers for just about everything else, but I'm sticking to damage for the moment). For Melee_Damage, Defenders have 30.586, Tankers have 44.488, and Blasters have 55.610. For Ranged_Damage, Defenders have 36.147, Tankers have 27.805, and Blasters have 62.562. (All values at 50)
Each damaging power effect has a damage scale attached to it. The damage scale is multipled by the appropriate attribute modifier to find the actual damage dealt. For example, Fire Blast > Blaze deals scale 2.12 fire damage, and has an 80% chance for 5 ticks of scale 0.23 fire damage. For a level 50 blaster, this is 2.12 * 62.562 = 132.63144 and 0.23 * 62.562 = 14.38926 (5 ticks)
Further muddling the issue is that melee attacks often are given higher damage scalars, due to the risk of being in melee, and that the only attacks which Defenders and Tankers share are in power pools (which have scalars customized per-AT), and in APPs (which are generally weaker than their pri/sec counterparts).
So, the best you can really do is compare attacks at similar positions between the sets. For example, a T1 Defender or Blaster attack generally has scale 1 damage (36.147 damage for Defenders, 62.562 damage for Blasters). A T1 Tanker attack generally has scale 0.84 or scale 1 damage (37.36992 damage or 44.488 damage).
If you're using Blaster as your baseline, those numbers give 29-40% 'reduction' for Tankers, and 42% 'reduction' for Defenders. (I use 'reduction' in quotes, because calling it a reduction is, frankly, wrong)
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I find this an interesting concept.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Something like Absorp pain would be hugely over powered at a 1:1 ratio.
Near zero end cost, recharge 15secs base (down to 8 ish with 3 SO) and 669 base heal (so 1304 with slotting) For comparison headsplitter has a similar recharge, 13.5 end cost and 163 base damage (318 with slotting) Empaths have attacks as their secondary, there is no need to 'heal' the enemies for damage. |
A way around to over powering 1:1 ratio is only use a fraction of the power's healing potential to deal damaged. 75% of Absorb Pain would mean it would be dealing 341 damage when slotted.
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Thank you for the more elaborate explanation, it is informative. But based on your data, is my observation that Defender damage then is essentially at par with Tankers, if not slightly inferior? |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
This is such a simplified version of how damage works in this game, it's essentially meaningless.
At each level, for each AT, there is both a Ranged_Damage modifier and a Melee_Damage modifier (there are also modifiers for just about everything else, but I'm sticking to damage for the moment). For Melee_Damage, Defenders have 30.586, Tankers have 44.488, and Blasters have 55.610. For Ranged_Damage, Defenders have 36.147, Tankers have 27.805, and Blasters have 62.562. (All values at 50) Each damaging power effect has a damage scale attached to it. The damage scale is multipled by the appropriate attribute modifier to find the actual damage dealt. For example, Fire Blast > Blaze deals scale 2.12 fire damage, and has an 80% chance for 5 ticks of scale 0.23 fire damage. For a level 50 blaster, this is 2.12 * 62.562 = 132.63144 and 0.23 * 62.562 = 14.38926 (5 ticks) Further muddling the issue is that melee attacks often are given higher damage scalars, due to the risk of being in melee, and that the only attacks which Defenders and Tankers share are in power pools (which have scalars customized per-AT), and in APPs (which are generally weaker than their pri/sec counterparts). So, the best you can really do is compare attacks at similar positions between the sets. For example, a T1 Defender or Blaster attack generally has scale 1 damage (36.147 damage for Defenders, 62.562 damage for Blasters). A T1 Tanker attack generally has scale 0.84 or scale 1 damage (37.36992 damage or 44.488 damage). If you're using Blaster as your baseline, those numbers give 29-40% 'reduction' for Tankers, and 42% 'reduction' for Defenders. (I use 'reduction' in quotes, because calling it a reduction is, frankly, wrong) |
If Defender damage is somewhat at par with Tanker, don't you think that is not quite right, and that Defender damage should be somewhere in the middle between tankers and blasters? After all the protections the tankers do receive are unconditional, the protections of defenders is very dependent in the debuff actually hitting and stacking to get the defensive effect; while this effect is pretty reliable against minions, it does greatly decrease as you engage tougher mobs such as EBs and AVs.
Hugs
Sue
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This seems somewhat overpowered and unbalancing, as it effectively doubles the number of powers available to some sets, thereby making them significantly stronger.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Of course, since I am always thinking of CoX, I thought, would it not be cool if Defenders and Corruptors could have reversible effect powers, thus a heal would hurt the baddie, and the buff would debuff the baddie as well?
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It creates a balancing nightmare. Corruptors would get another helping of damage on top of their damage primary. Sets with a majority of heal and buff powers would get a huge boost in power versus sets which are heavy on debuff. Of course, one way to balance this would be to give debuff powers a buffing effect when used on allies, thereby making the whole idea even more unbalanced versus the other ATs.
The other way to balance it would be to reduce the effectiveness of both the positive and negative versions of each power. That might not be popular.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
Hi:
I was playing the old D&D (paper and dice) game last week end, and a player asked to use the reversable effect on cleric spells option. Basically this option allowed to use their heal spells to do damage instead of healing on enemy targets. Some of us were stunned at the request, and went rule "lawyering" and to our surprise it was there! The GM was not crazy about the concept, and compromized indicating that the heal could be used to damage undead monsters.
Of course, since I am always thinking of CoX, I thought, would it not be cool if Defenders and Corruptors could have reversible effect powers, thus a heal would hurt the baddie, and the buff would debuff the baddie as well?
What do you all think of the concept?
I am sure some of the tankers who are used to being babied by the support class, may have an objection to this, but often I been in truly extraordinary good groups, with good AT builds that simply do not require the constant buffing to be very effective; sure they could be even better, but that would be at the expense of reducing the support to buff bot class status (think of the relation between a tank and the kin defender).
In fact my Tankers and Scrappers are built not to require Speed Boost, he performance gained from a speed boost is inconsequential, and in fact I do worse cause I am jetting all over the map when chasing the mobs I have knocked the heck away from me.
I also been in great groups where my emp defender, hardly does any healing at all, the amount of control provided by controllers and dominators is really good and the tankers, scrappers and brutes are very good too. So I find myself with lots of time in my hands to do something else than playing the faithful buff/heal bot.
Hugs
Stormy