A change to Rise of the phoenix

Whurl...Howling Twilight can be used even when no team-mates are dead, just for the stun portion of it, IIRC. Thats about all I got.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

You forgot the 15 seconds of untouchability. The best suggestion would be to simply have 2 completely different functions within the single power: one that operates if you're dead and another that operates if you're alive. The dead effect would be stronger (re: as it is now), and the live effect would be a limited version of the dead effect (smaller to nonexistent heal, smaller to nonexistent end gain, no untouchable, not autohit, no debt protection) with some of the self-rez penalties removed (no self immobilize, potential +def/+res).

Granted, he's only 41, but I don't plan on taking other shields. Plays just fine...I burn through mobs just fine. And when I die, I pop RRotP and then I say "That's badass!" then kill the remaining mobs.

Eh eh!!! *points* Combat Jumping! Yeah took it to slot my LOtG IO's for the Regen bonus.

No what? Oh I know time to call my build ****** and me a ****** player...

Oh ya!? Well **** on you!

Howling Twilight is actually a pretty bad example. Its conditions for activation never change, nor does its composition of effects. It's always activated on a living hostile target, the only difference is that some effects only play on living allied targets near you, and if there aren't any, they have nothing to affect.

However, what we're talking about here is a power usable both when you are dead AND when you are alive, which I'm not sure is possible. Granted, checking out Rise of the Phoenix at Red Tomax's City of Data does not reveal any modes required or any modes disallowed (other than Disable All), so however that validity check is made, it's somewhere else. I do know there's an "alive" flag you can filter for in custom targeting binds, but I have no idea how this is rigged in the actual power. An ally rez is easy enough to guess - you need a power that is both "ally" and "notalive" for the power to activate, but a power activate on yourself (it's targeted at self/caster) may or may not actually work via target parameters. Specifically, since we can't target ourselves, there may be a different system for it altogether.

Even if we assume that we can just append "if alive" at every effect, there's still a bit of a problem. The power's self-affecting effects - heal, untouchable, endurance, self-immobilization and debt protection, are all written as effects to the power, but all of its offensive capability comes courtesy of a pet - Phoenix. Basically, it does damage, knockback and stun all in its one attack, which is autohit. I highly doubt trying to tweak the AI to play a different, non-autohit power from the same pet is a good idea, so we'll probably have to rid up two separate pets.

On the flip side, we have Mastermind Detonator, a power which actually does different things to different targets, and is actually set up, at least in City of Data, to check "f target is a non-human Mastermind pet" or "If target is a human Mastermind pet." If that works to make one power have different effects depending on what target you fire it off at (or at least play some of its effects only on specific targets) then this could be feasible. Of course, we still need to know how and even IF self-affecting powers actually check for your own status. And at the end of the day, the power may grow so fat in terms of setup, or bog the server down with so many validity checks that it may be unfeasible altogether.

And that's before we actually concede on whether such a move is actually balanced.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

You don't look like the person I was replying to.

Try using that build to tank a ship raid or STF once you are 50. I'm pretty sure that build is pretty rough for tanking ITF as well. Thanks for contributing.

I wasn't the person, but it seemed you were asking anyone. /shrug

So there are 2 things that I might have an issue with Tanking? 2 whole things! 2!

Out of how many other things the game offers? Hmmm, think i might just delete and re-roll now.

No, I didn't. On a character with out massive amounts of +recharge, RotP has around a 3 minute recharge. Not very game breaking. In fact leaving it in the "alive activation" would bring RotP back up to be comparable to other tier 9 powers.

This suggestion would leave the power far too weak to use while alive. You've just taken too much from the power.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Not sure how this became a build show and tell thread, but..... Tank any AV with that setup, and take a Fraps for our entertainment.

Now I forget, what's this thread about again.

I can see that counting is your forté as well. I suppose you can add Hamidon encounter, in and out of LGtf, not to mention the end bosses within that TF. Or the various AVs within Kahn TF.

Monster Island and Northern RWZ must be a delight too. Radio missions with Arachnos can be pretty interesting with large groups as well. Vanguard, well...lots of people have problems with them so that's a freebie.

If you've noticed, all of this is end game stuff, so perhaps you can post here once again when you've hit 50. Praetorian AVs will probably give your T9 a workout too.

Um... Have you any idea what this means? MoG is on a 240 second recharge and provides a 15 second buff to both defence and resistance to everything but Psi enough to cap yourself on everything (but psi). Rise of the Phoenix, under your suggestion, would be a power on a 300 second recharge that heals you, restores your endurance, causes a lot of damage, a lot of knockback, enough stun to affect bosses AND gives you 15 seconds of complete untouchability AND that can also resurrect you if you happen to be dead. And this doesn't strike you as sickeningly overpowered?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Ah, because a single Tank on his own is intended to tank AV's and GM's. Good show.

It works well for plenty of them.

Apples meet oranges unless you are talking about the Scrapper version. I am talking about the Tank version.

I did not make any comment on the bolded section. Also you forgot that RotP roots you for 4 seconds of that 15 second untouchable time frame. MoG is on a shorter timer, doesn't root. RotP also heals less if you are a scrapper, doesn't have stun protection, KB protection, the other status protections, or the increased Recovery that MoG has.

When the word "nonexistent" appeared multiple times the suggestion went too far.

Umbral's suggestion would strip every aspect of the power. I wouldn't take Umbral's version of RotP at level one. It is far too underpowered.

* I could see a small reduction in the heal. Healing Flames heals for 1/4 (edit: Fixed a typo here.) of base hit points for a tank, RotP is 1/2. So make the "alive" RotP heal for 1/3 of the base hit points.

* Make it cost a huge amount of endurance to use while alive, that would make it balanced with other nukes.

* Autohit while alive is problematical to program due to how the power works. Probably should be left in.

* I've already agreed that the debt protection should be out.

* If the untouchable (which in my experience doesn't work all the time) is too overbalanced, replace with +1000 Resistance and Defence to all for the 15 seconds while removing the root.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Except that the closest parallel to the power you're attempting to turn it into is MoG. The comparison stands because it's comparing apples to apples: the AT the power is used by doesn't matter within the confines of the change.

First off, MoG is only on a 20% shorter timer and doesn't have any of the offensive benefits. Secondly, you've obviously never had to deal with MoG because it has an animation that lasts nearly 3 seconds, eating up almost 10% of the time of the power; RotP has an incredibly short cast time and the "root" still allows you the full ability to attack (of course, you should also notice that I recommended removing that penalty). Third, heals scale with base HP; the proportion of the effect stays the same (you might as well claim that you're not allowed to make comparisons between Tank shields and Scrappers shields because the Scrapper shields are smaller). Fourth, the mez protections are blatantly unneeded because the only thing MoG covers that isn't already covered by Integration is Repel (which only exists in PvP). Fifth, MoG have +recov but RotP actually grants more endurance by directly granting endurance to the user.


You obviously didn't actually look at it within context because the "nonexistent" was there only as a lowball option to prevent the power from being MoG with a substantial heal, nuke, and AoE mez, which, combined, on the timer it would have, would be way too strong.

Actually, it wouldn't. It would be a reduction all of the effects to make up for the fact that you get to use it while alive. The very reason the power is so strong is that you have to be alive to use it.

First, I don't know where you're getting your numbers from. Healing Flames is a 25% base heal, not 50%. Of course, you probably didn't notice, but the power was actually improved from its original state by making it recharge 20 seconds faster than Reconstruction, so it already provides a massive amount of damage recovery to a set that already has decent damage mitigation capabilities already.

Secondly, the heal in RotP only exists because it is a self rez power. You have to remember that you're functionally asking for the power to be MoG on crack so some sacrifices would have to be made and, considering that FA already has an incredible self heal within it already, it's like that the heal would one of the first attributes to be put up on the chopping block.

Which makes it rather redundant when the set already has Consume (removing virtually all end problems) and the fact that the power is already granting a huge amount of endurance. Besides, if you look at the model for other tier 9 powers, all of them cost a pittance to make up for the fact that they are on long timers and are supposed to be of situational use. The end cost shouldn't be a prohibition against use.

Why would it be a problem to take the auto-hit aspect of the power out? It's not even associated with the actual activation of RotP and, if there were different versions of the power, it would be pretty easy to simply have the power summon a different Phoenix pseudo-pet that uses a version of the attack power without the auto-hit tag. I don't think you quite grasp how the power actually works.

Strange because that's exactly what I recommended, though I don't think it should be to quite the same degree as MoG gets (which is what I think you're attempting to recommend even though MoG only gets 71.3% +def(all types but psi) and 71.3% +res(all but psi) and def/res numbers are granted based upon percentages rather than simple numerical increases).

You have to realize that the power would still be at the exact same strength as it currently is to be used while alive. The entire reason why it is so strong is that you have to be dead to use it. The ability to use it while alive dictates that the power should be substantially weaker, especially when you compare it to the existing powers that you're attempting to model it after (whether you know you're modeling it after those powers or not).

As it stands, you would want the power to become MoG fused with Reconstruction mixed with Shield Charge and a dash of Flashfire all with virtually no real cost to reduce its effectiveness or take away from its current functionality. That's not even remotely balanced.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

That's part of the reason I like my concept of a self damaging PBAOE despite the inherant dangers of it. Thematically makes sense, difficult to just outright abuse, and fits the offensive concept.

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I dunno... I could see it being reasonably balanced to have it act as MoG meets Shield Charge. The longer recharge time would prevent abuse as an attack and the set could actually use a bit of a survivability boost to bring it up to Shield Defense's level. Giving it a decent end cost (10.3 is standard for click powers) and no +recov or +end would probably make it work rather well.

Err... A self-damaging power that doubles as a rez is remarkably dangerous, if for one simple reason above all others - if you kill yourself with it, you just expended your own resurrect power. Oops? This is a situation that will see a lot of people's heads explode, and I'd really find it prudent to just avoid the possibility of it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.