Rogue Isles: Nazi Germany?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2009-12-18 05:52 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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arguably, he was right, but it was a self-fulfilling prophecy
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Originally Posted by ReclusesPhantom
he thought that 'sub-human beings' would contaminate Germany and slander her pride.
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@craggy see me on Union for TFs, SFs (please!) or just some good ol fashioned teaming.
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Exactly what I was thinking.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Did this thread get Godwin'd in the very first post? Is that a new record?
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The only way we could ever beat the record now is if "Nazi" or "Hitler" were both the first words in the TITLE and in the first post.
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It actually makes sense when you view politics as a two-dimensional field instead the outdated one-dimensional spectrum that the politicians and pundits still use. Then you see that the closer you get to totalitarianism the lines get blurred.|
Originally Posted by Big_Lunk_NA
Funny thing when you look at Mussolini's facism in comparison with modern politics, as Mussolini was origionaly a socialist, it actualy sits to the left of most mainstream modern parties (even Obama), and right of socialism and comunism, yet both the "right" and "left" wing parties in the US and UK refer to fascism as the opposite of their own supposed leanings.
And i hate Nazis being called nationalistic, as they were obsessed with race and religeon, rather than nation and state. |
Nationalism was actually the wedge issue that they used to gain power. Race and religion justified their abuses afterward, but they used the depression and the general malaise after the Treaty of Versailles to first get the masses under their umbrella.
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"With Me - Against Me" Mission Arc 230667
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Did this thread get Godwin'd in the very first post? Is that a new record?
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Godwin's Law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions. The corollaries of the law would presumably not apply to discussions covering genocide, propaganda, or other mainstays of the Nazi Germany, or, more debatably, to discussion of other totalitarian regimes, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances is understandable. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent. However, Godwin's Law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons. |
Battlerock X - inv/str tank, Justice Server
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http://guardiansofthedawn.wordpress.com - fan-based comic book series "The Guardian Powers"
http://twitter.com/BattlerockX
--
"With Me - Against Me" Mission Arc 230667
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Originally Posted by NarfMann
That made me chuckle. I wonder how it would go over if I wore a t-shirt with Hitler on it. After all, he was the greatest catalyst for social advancement in the last hundred years.
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I would seriously take issue on that statement on many levels.
Thelonious Monk
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But it's the truth. Words like "catalyst" and "great" are words that don't have a negative or positive connotation. For example, I could say that "Hitler was the greatest man of the 20th century" because even though his deeds were EVIL, they still meet one of the dictionary definitions of great, which is "of major significance or importance".|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I would seriously take issue on that statement on many levels.
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Now if you want to try to say that Hitler did nothing of SIGNIFICANCE, then I know a whole group of people that would like to give you a talking to.
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Originally Posted by Battlerock_X
Plus the Arbiter system as has been set up and utilized today in the Rogue Isles is more like a kleptocracy than an organized hierarchy.
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Trying to bring the thread back on track... I'd be interested in you expanding on this. I thing I have an idea about where you're at but it would be good if you could enlighten us.
Thelonious Monk
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Originally Posted by Westley
But it's the truth. Words like "catalyst" and "great" are words that don't have a negative or positive connotation. For example, I could say that "Hitler was the greatest man of the 20th century" because even though his deeds were EVIL, they still meet one of the dictionary definitions of great, which is "of major significance or importance".
Now if you want to try to say that Hitler did nothing of SIGNIFICANCE, then I know a whole group of people that would like to give you a talking to. |
I'd argue that "Greatest" is not "great" and there are plenty of other things in the last century that can be claimed to have been greater than Hitler's influence.
Your implication that I might try to claim that Hitler is insignificant is puerile - but there are many other things that that have massive impact and influence on global social interaction within the last century that are nothing to do with him or his warped ideology.
Thelonious Monk
Well that is something that can be easily argued, but to "take issue" with the statement is foolish, if you ask me.
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Originally Posted by Westley
Well that is something that can be easily argued, but to "take issue" with the statement is foolish, if you ask me.
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I didn't
Thelonious Monk
I asked me! And I answered me!
Creepy!
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Originally Posted by Westley
I asked me! And I answered me!
Creepy! |
You have an extraneous "Y" in the above paragraph. Please stop trying do derail this thread.
This is not about the impact of Hitler or WWII or Nazi Germany it's about the comparison between the organisation of the Rogue Isles authorities compared to Hitler's Germany. Please try and remain on topic.
Thelonious Monk
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Originally Posted by Kiken
Not even just states. Most large companies have their own share of factionalism and in-fighting over resources. As do universities. And even organisations such as Greenpeace. It's just a sad fact of humanity that, if you put enough of us together, there will be some that will immediately start looking to advance their own position at the expense of others. And that attitude is often encouraged by those at the top, especially in the case of companies.
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This is very true.
Rule by committee can also be fraught with such dangers. Especially when elections are entered into 'for the sake of appearances.'
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Originally Posted by Kiken
Not even just states. Most large companies have their own share of factionalism and in-fighting over resources. As do universities. And even organisations such as Greenpeace. It's just a sad fact of humanity that, if you put enough of us together, there will be some that will immediately start looking to advance their own position at the expense of others. And that attitude is often encouraged by those at the top, especially in the case of companies.
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I'd agree with this but what I think is different about the cases I'm citing here is that Hitler and Recluse both seem to actively encourage in-fighting and even "social darwinism."
Albert Speer made a lot of that in his "Inside the Third Reich" - which whilst needs to be treated with caution - is insightful in many ways.
Thelonious Monk
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Is that "thing" or "think"? |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Trying to bring the thread back on track... I'd be interested in you expanding on this. I thing I have an idea about where you're at but it would be good if you could enlighten us.
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But getting back on-topic...
A kleptocracy is a system that is takes advantage of government corruption. It's based on the Greek words kleptes ("thieves") and kratos ("rule") and it is often used to describe a systemic problem with those who use power for personal gain.
If you ever saw the Brian De Palma movie "The Untouchables" then that should give you an idea of what a kleptocracy is like.
You look at what's going on in the Rogue Isles, you have Arachnos agents, Rogue Isle Police, and various factions all working their own agendas. Right from the beginning you have Matthew Burke telling newcommers that they should plant tracking devices on Arachnos fliers and to steal information. You have Arachnos agents planning the "un-death" of Ghost Widow. You get close to an Arachnos agent of the same level (and without stealth) and you get attacked. The only group that you supposedly don't have to fear are the Arbiters, and they supposedly only serve Lord Recluse, not Arachnos itself.
Not exactly an orderly system.
Battlerock X - inv/str tank, Justice Server
http://battlerockx.blogspot.com - The Battlerock X Chronicles
http://guardiansofthedawn.wordpress.com - fan-based comic book series "The Guardian Powers"
http://twitter.com/BattlerockX
--
"With Me - Against Me" Mission Arc 230667
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It was "think" - typo I'm afraid.|
Originally Posted by Battlerock_X
Is that "thing" or "think"?
But getting back on-topic... A kleptocracy is a system that is takes advantage of government corruption. It's based on the Greek words kleptes ("thieves") and kratos ("rule") and it is often used to describe a systemic problem with those who use power for personal gain. If you ever saw the Brian De Palma movie "The Untouchables" then that should give you an idea of what a kleptocracy is like. You look at what's going on in the Rogue Isles, you have Arachnos agents, Rogue Isle Police, and various factions all working their own agendas. Right from the beginning you have Matthew Burke telling newcommers that they should plant tracking devices on Arachnos fliers and to steal information. You have Arachnos agents planning the "un-death" of Ghost Widow. You get close to an Arachnos agent of the same level (and without stealth) and you get attacked. The only group that you supposedly don't have to fear are the Arbiters, and they supposedly only serve Lord Recluse, not Arachnos itself. Not exactly an orderly system. |
I guess I can't argue with that and Hitler's Germany was far more "lawful" than that, assuming you were a a "true aryan" but there were several blatant attempts to wrest power from some of the lower ranking higher ups but only one serious attempt to depose Hitler and even then when it failed (I'm referring to the Stauffenberg plot of course) the various factions beneath Hitler retreated into themselves... if only the Allies had known at the time.
Even the Stauffenberg plot was not a genuine attempt to change the course of the war. It was to restore the German aristocracy to its previous position of power.
One of the main themes that came out of my studies of Germany in WWII was that is was absolute chaos and the Rogue Isles seems to fit that well too.
Thelonious Monk
*grumbles and goes back to edit a few handbook pages*
Aryan. Kept spelling it wrong.
I think I'd agree that Praetoria seems more like a Faschist regime than the Rogue Isles. Although the Rogues do have dictatorial elements in it, its more of a unique mix than anything from this world. Well, that I know of, anyhow.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The Rogue Isles are more like a bunch of warlords banded together to form one really crummy and discordant nation under Recluse while his Arbiters lurk in the shadows to make sure there's never a unified movement to depose the supreme leader. And, if all else fails, send in the elite Bane army which has no will of its own except Recluse's to execute everybody...and get to finishing up that Web so nobody alive can ever challenge him and win so long as he's in Grandville.
And if you ever show him you are capable of killing him he sends you on a suicide mission against the Freedom Phalanx and has a good laugh about how stupid you are. Oops, you came back? Uhhh...didn't expect that. Here, take a random a POS hami-o.
And i hate Nazis being called nationalistic, as they were obsessed with race and religeon, rather than nation and state.