Preferred pairing for Fire Melee, and why?
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2009-12-16 11:58 in Scrappers
Quote:
Regarding thematic coherence, don't forget the sometimes-overlooked fire elemental shield costume option for SD.|
Originally Posted by D-Void
After having searched the scrapper forums, I've found a surprising dearth of FM/FA threads, but far more /SD, /Reg and /WP pairings. Though I love the thematic coherence of going FM/FA/Blaze, I'm getting the impression that it's not really a good synergy.
I'd be interested in knowing: what's your preferred secondary for Fire Melee, and your reasons. Extra points for rationales as to why /FA seems to get skipped over. Thanks in advance! |
I'm strongly considering FM/SD as my encore to my Elm/SD that just dinged 50. Shield is a great set. I've spent a lot of time with FA on a Brute, and while that journey was fun (DM/FA), I'll probably not repeat FA again. It's different, but squishy/unforgiving. I prefer more fire-and-forget sets these days so I can focus on offense. (On the other hand, if FA wasn't somewhat squishy, you'd never get to use Rise of the Phoenix, one of the coolest powers in the game...).
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I was kind of disappointed that I couldn't color tint the Dark Shield option. To my mind, that option colored in red and orange would look more like a shield made of fire than the existing fire elemental shield option, which looks more like lava.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Velocity
Regarding thematic coherence, don't forget the sometimes-overlooked fire elemental shield costume option for SD.
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Anybody know why they won't let you recolor that one?
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
Quote:
My fm/sd scrapper uses that shield. Both primary and secondary are tinted dark green/black. Looks awesome.
| Regarding thematic coherence, don't forget the sometimes-overlooked fire elemental shield costume option for SD. |
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Full saturated AAO won't give you more then 70% damage bonus, where as Fiery Embrace gives you a full 125% if you have Fire as a primary. I can assure you that without Shield Charge, Shield Defense wouldn't be as popular as it is.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I disagree. It's Against All Odds that really kicks it over the top. That paired with Shield Charge is wonderful, but without Shield Charge the damage due to AAO would still put shield on top for any set without decent AoE output.
And it's not Shield Charge that pumps /Shield builds to solo pylons in the five minute range. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
74.375% damage buff if fully saturated versus 125% for 20 seconds.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
Full saturated AAO won't give you more then 70% damage bonus, where as Fiery Embrace gives you a full 125% if you have Fire as a primary. I can assure you that without Shield Charge, Shield Defense wouldn't be as popular as it is.
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Even if you tweak for averaging, say.. 6 foes for AAO and 3 recharges in FE, you get 46.875% for AAO versus 27% average buff over time for FE and that's only for fire damage. Drops closer to 11% for other damage types.
AAO is very nice. I'm not saying that shield charge isn't the other big draw for shields, it is, but AAO is a freaking HUGE damage buff.
Math for above: AAO: 12.5 for first enemy, 6.875 for each after up to 10
FE: 180 base recharge; 125% for fire for 20 seconds; 100% for other damage for 10 seconds; recharge with 3 enhs = 92.3 seconds
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
If I could soft cap /Fire without Parry then maybe Fiery Embrace might be a consideration. It isn't really a consideration if /FA can't survive big enough spawns to really put the damage to use.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
Full saturated AAO won't give you more then 70% damage bonus, where as Fiery Embrace gives you a full 125% if you have Fire as a primary.
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Quote:
| I can assure you that without Shield Charge, Shield Defense wouldn't be as popular as it is. |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Originally Posted by Gaidin
I agree with the first statement, and disagree with the second. I have a 50 FM/SR/Body and it is excellent at AV soloing and teaming. It is also good at farming, if you swap APPs and get Fireball. It's easier and far less expensive to softcap than /Shield, so if you're looking for an inexpensive and yet still capable combination, this is it.
/WP is also a very solid set, and if you build towards raising defense against non-positional defense then it can be amazing. The only issue I see of pairing it with FM/ is that FM/ doesn't have any mitigation to allow you to regen at lower levels - though this is offset somewhat if you take Build-up and Hasten and attacks early on to be able to blapper things to death quickly. If you have the influence to throw into it, I like /Shields the best - more damage with AAO to boost Fire's damage, and a nuke to boot. FM/Shield is excellent for farming or AV soloing and I wish I had made my FM/SR a FM/Shield instead. |
Exactly.
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I see many people repeatedly saying how /FA is so squishy. With IOs you can make it pretty tough even if you can't softcap its defense. It can certainly hold its own with defense backed up with decent resists and a great self heal. My Spines/Fire can stand up pretty well to +2/8 mobs. I actually was farming aggro capped 52 bosses with mine before it was nerfed.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
If I could soft cap /Fire without Parry then maybe Fiery Embrace might be a consideration. It isn't really a consideration if /FA can't survive big enough spawns to really put the damage to use.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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This. /FA is squishy in the absence of a good IO build, but it can be built for maybe 40% or so S/L/melee defense without gimping it in other ways. At this point the layered defense, resists, and self-heal will put +2x8 on cruise control against most enemy groups.|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
I see many people repeatedly saying how /FA is so squishy. With IOs you can make it pretty tough even if you can't softcap its defense. It can certainly hold its own with defense backed up with decent resists and a great self heal. My Spines/Fire can stand up pretty well to +2/8 mobs. I actually was farming aggro capped 52 bosses with mine before it was nerfed.
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Shield Defense can probably trump /FA in terms of both survival and damage output, but that's true pretty much regardless of what you compare /SD to.
With Inventions almost anything can be made great. I'd like to see a comparison farm run of a Fire/Fire/Pyre and a Fire/Shield/Pyre using SOs and see who lasts the longest against +0 x8. Any takers?
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Pick the electrical elemental or the energy shield and tint it orange. That's what my fire/shield/blaze scrapper does. It looks like she has formed fire into a shield.
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Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
I was kind of disappointed that I couldn't color tint the Dark Shield option. To my mind, that option colored in red and orange would look more like a shield made of fire than the existing fire elemental shield option, which looks more like lava.
Anybody know why they won't let you recolor that one? |
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That's interesting, I'd like to see the result since /SD can be squishy without its softcap defense and /FA has an extra mitigation tool, Burn. I would help out, but don't have either of those toons.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
With Inventions almost anything can be made great. I'd like to see a comparison farm run of a Fire/Fire/Pyre and a Fire/Shield/Pyre using SOs and see who lasts the longest against +0 x8. Any takers?
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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I'll give that a shot, but I really like the look of that dark shield. Using the lava shield for now.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Pick the electrical elemental or the energy shield and tint it orange. That's what my fire/shield/blaze scrapper does. It looks like she has formed fire into a shield.
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Regardless, Fire/Shield is an awesome pairing, even if I have to take the cavalier shield or something lame like that.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
I like Fire/Regen.
But, then again, I just like Regen in general. No redraw issues when you click a heal, and QR early makes you an engine of destruction much sooner than other sets.
Granted, other sets will pull ahead in the late game, but I have gotten some ridiculous survivability out of regens, even without Divine Avalanche/Parry. My main's passive regen is high enough I seldom need to click a heal, and with my experience in trial and error with the set I can do it right the first time this time around.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
I would love to hear your experience with an IO'd out Regen that doesn't have Parry since I can't get my Regen to perform like my other characters. But I went recharge all the way, and I just get decimated by big spawns. I haven't gone full out defense yet, but on paper (err Mid's) I just can't seem to get a build with high enough melee defense to really compare to some of my other scrappers.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Granted, other sets will pull ahead in the late game, but I have gotten some ridiculous survivability out of regens, even without Divine Avalanche/Parry. My main's passive regen is high enough I seldom need to click a heal, and with my experience in trial and error with the set I can do it right the first time this time around.
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And I am well aware how well regen can do when paired with Parry or DA.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Quote:
Not to mention if you decide you want to go PvP on occasion you have a great chance of surviving. Good luck doing that with shields in PvP lol
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I like Fire/Regen.
But, then again, I just like Regen in general. No redraw issues when you click a heal, and QR early makes you an engine of destruction much sooner than other sets. Granted, other sets will pull ahead in the late game, but I have gotten some ridiculous survivability out of regens, even without Divine Avalanche/Parry. My main's passive regen is high enough I seldom need to click a heal, and with my experience in trial and error with the set I can do it right the first time this time around. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
For what kind of scrapper? I have a Fire/Regeneration build with around 25% defense to melee and ranged and it's helped out tremendously.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I would love to hear your experience with an IO'd out Regen that doesn't have Parry since I can't get my Regen to perform like my other characters. But I went recharge all the way, and I just get decimated by big spawns. I haven't gone full out defense yet, but on paper (err Mid's) I just can't seem to get a build with high enough melee defense to really compare to some of my other scrappers.
And I am well aware how well regen can do when paired with Parry or DA. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
One of the great things about these forums is that starting a thread is like planting a magic bean -- come back to it in a couple days and a full-blown tree of ideas has grown, answering all my questions (and then some). Thanks, all!
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I'd also enjoy seeing this, even in purely anecdotal form.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
With Inventions almost anything can be made great. I'd like to see a comparison farm run of a Fire/Fire/Pyre and a Fire/Shield/Pyre using SOs and see who lasts the longest against +0 x8. Any takers?
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My current is a 50 Spines/Regen. I was somewhat disheartened by how squishie he was after I got his Hasten and Dull Pain perma with purples and expensive sets. The redraw is somewhat annoying but I could live with that.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
For what kind of scrapper? I have a Fire/Regeneration build with around 25% defense to melee and ranged and it's helped out tremendously.
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I have been avoiding Regen since then. I was thinking of Fire/Regen since there is no redraw. (My main is MA and as much as I love him because he's my main, that primary is painful to play after running some of the other scrapper pimaries.)
Another issue with Regen is that, at least in Pylon tests, all the clicking really cuts down my DPS.
I am looking for some opinions of people with /Regens with, say, 25/40/30 defense to see if they can survive 8/+2, solo Pylons, RWZ challenge, and solo AVs.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
The problem with spines is that it is a mob killer and doesn't deal well with hard targets. I took Umbrals Katana/Regeneration build and changed it to Fire/Regeneration and it has pretty decent recharge as well as excellent defense.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Scorch -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(7), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Hectmb-Dam%(9)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-Heal(A), Dct'dW-Rchg(3), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(3), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(5), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 4: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(34), EndMod-I(37)
Level 6: Cremate -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(11), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(11), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), T'Death-Dam%(17)
Level 8: Build Up -- AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(23), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(25), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx(25), AdjTgt-Rchg(27)
Level 10: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(17), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Dct'dW-Heal(42), Dct'dW-Rchg(42)
Level 12: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(39), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(15), Zephyr-ResKB(15)
Level 16: Integration -- Panac-Heal/+End(A), Panac-Heal(29), RgnTis-Regen+(48), EndRdx-I(50)
Level 18: Fire Sword Circle -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(19), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(19), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Oblit-%Dam(21), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 20: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Aegis-ResDam(43)
Level 24: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(40), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 26: Incinerate -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(29), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Mako-Dam%(31)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 30: Resilience -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(39)
Level 32: Greater Fire Sword -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(33), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mako-Dam%(34)
Level 35: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(36), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(36), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(36), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Build%(37)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(46), RechRdx-I(46), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(45), P'Shift-End%(45), P'Shift-EndMod(45), EndMod-I(46)
Level 47: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(48)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Code:
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Fire Melee has no secondary debuff effect like other primaries.
Fire Armor is resistance based secondary with an average heal. Pyre Mastery offers more AoE damage. Combine all those three and you have a recipe for a lot of AoE damage but not a whole lot of damage mitigation. You'll find yourself taking on a lot of damage due to producing so much AoE damage. |
Correct, that's why you take SD and shield charge - you kill everything before it can attack you. Nothing mitigates an opponents damage better than killing said opponent, lol.
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But you're ignoring the fact that SD is a defense set and FA relies on res and a self heal. I'll take defense over res/heal all day long.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
Full saturated AAO won't give you more then 70% damage bonus, where as Fiery Embrace gives you a full 125% if you have Fire as a primary. I can assure you that without Shield Charge, Shield Defense wouldn't be as popular as it is.
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Now having said that, I'm always aiming for end game. Leveling up, defensive toons can be pretty painful, it takes a while to get your defensive numbers up to strong levels. So leveling up, sets with heals can be a lot better and easier to play, which balances the end game disparity, imo.
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This is exactly what I meant with my last post - leveling up, sets like regen and FA are superior, imo. Though I'd like to see fire armor get power sink to replace it's assy end recovery power - that might get it a bit more play.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I like Fire/Regen.
But, then again, I just like Regen in general. No redraw issues when you click a heal, and QR early makes you an engine of destruction much sooner than other sets. Granted, other sets will pull ahead in the late game, but I have gotten some ridiculous survivability out of regens, even without Divine Avalanche/Parry. My main's passive regen is high enough I seldom need to click a heal, and with my experience in trial and error with the set I can do it right the first time this time around. |
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Mostly it's the fact that I've been playing the character for so long I know exactly what he can handle and have learned to gauge how much damage is going to come in from enemies in a fight. It's second nature at this point. |
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I would love to hear your experience with an IO'd out Regen that doesn't have Parry since I can't get my Regen to perform like my other characters. But I went recharge all the way, and I just get decimated by big spawns. I haven't gone full out defense yet, but on paper (err Mid's) I just can't seem to get a build with high enough melee defense to really compare to some of my other scrappers.
And I am well aware how well regen can do when paired with Parry or DA. |
Knowing when NOT to click your heals is an important skill. Many times your passive regen and any other mitigation will see you through, so you can save your heals for when you really need them. If you're low on health but there are only 2 minions left, you don't need to hit Recon because you will usually kill them before they hit you enough to drop them. There is a lot of trial and error involved though, you will faceplant a lot while you're figuring out the breaking point.
Sheer aggression helps too, you put out more damage than anything in the game but an AV or GM (enemy wise, not comparing ATs). Use that to your advantage, if you attack gung-ho enough and don't waver in your attacking, you will win more often than not.
My main is Claws/Regen with almost 700% passive regen just running Integration and ~20% defense to all positions. He is nearly unkillable if I'm on my game, but very squishy if I'm not paying attention. My playstyle led to his death may times, but now that he's IOed out my playstyle makes him very difficult to kill.
My playstyle is just barely this side of completely psychotic. I don't agro enemies...they agro ME. I attack full bore and NEVER run away. I refuse to acknowledge the fact that I can be defeated by anything and it has served me well. I never stop moving, utilizing Shockwave, Focus and Energy Torrent to keep them at bay. By constantly moving in and out of melee range it causes the AI to choose between ranged and melee frequently, a lot of times you'll find that an enemy will chase you to engage in melee instead of shooting you from a distance, that cuts down on incoming damage because it takes time for them to get to you.
I usually go: Jump in, Follow Up, Spin, Jump out, Energy Torrent, Shockwave, pick a target, attack chain, Spin, Jump out, Shockwave, etc.
It gets the mob running around trying to engage you, since you are in and out of melee it will often choose to chase instead of shoot, and then they get a Shockwave in the mouth.
I'm doing my best to describe it here, but it's kind of hard to explain your playstyle to someone who is not there to see it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
And it's not Shield Charge that pumps /Shield builds to solo pylons in the five minute range.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563