Teir 8 is your 3rd Henchman
Lets run down the layout of a MM primary
Tier 1/2: 1st Henchmen
Tier 1/2: Single target attack
Tier 3: Stronger single target attack
Teir 4: 1st upgrade
Tier 5: AOE/ranged Cone Attack
Teir 6: 2nd Henchmen
Tier 7: 'Utility power'
Tier 8: 3rd Henchmen
Tier 9: 2nd upgrade
Tier 7 is the only possible location, and that power is things like soul extraction for necro, gang war in Thugs, Smoke flash in Ninja. Its really where the only different flavour for a primary comes in.
Maybe, at a stretch, this suggestion could be the tier 7 power in a newly designed set, but pulling a grab bag of powers out of the existing primairies is pretty much not going to happen. (Cottage rule)
I'll echo the thought of Deacon_NA. My Crab plays much more in line with this, his fast recharging pets are always there, and he brings out the big guns for a tough fight. He is certainly not lacking in the personal damage and survivability department.
Spiderlings have 600s base recharge and 240s duration (150% recharge to perma - relatively easy to achieve with 100% from 3 level 50 recharge IO)
Disruptors and patron pets have 900s base recharge and 240s duration (275% recharge to perma - hard but possible)
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Catwhoorg is right on the money. You can't take anything away from the powersets. Sure serum and repair could go in favor of your idea, but the other sets would much rather lose an attack. How does having only two attacks play into your "the mastermind is really more powerful than the pets" strategy?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Again I'll remind you, though, my suggestion wouldn't stop you being the mastermind, sending your pets out to do your bidding. I also wouldn't drop the second upgrade, I'd just move it to Tier 8 and swap out something else (what would depend on what's expendable in any given set). It would just give you that option of saying, "So, you've bested my minions, now see what power I possess!"
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Even if you could add a tier nine and a half without taking anything away, much like kheldians get to chose either pets or a nova at level 32, it still doesn't work how you want it to.
"So, you've bested my robots, now see what power I possess! I have two single target blasts, a low damage AoE, all of which have heavy endurance costs because I'm a mastermind, but best of all... I picked up FLURRY!"
Ah, but we do have our secondaries, I'm sure you'll say. True. But outside of traps, which secondary even has the capability to do damage? No, dispersion bomb doesn't count. Ok, storm and trick arrow are a maybe. You'd still be like a defender with only the first three attacks. It can't work the way you want.
Further, to be a halfway decent mastermind, you need all your pets and most of your secondary. Most builds don't have room for the personal attacks to begin with. Now you want to pick an extra toggle and fit three attacks. If you didn't have stamina before, you need it now. That's seven powers. At this point, just drop the pet summons and the upgrades. Hey, better yet, make a corruptor.
There's your solution. You want to be a corruptor with pets. Not possible, outside of the gimmick'd crab build for perma pets. So here's my suggestion:
1. When creating your mastermind, in the costume creation screen, save the costume.
2. Finish creating the mastermind.
3. Log out, and create a new character. This time, make a corruptor with the same secondary as your mastermind.
4. At the costume creation screen, load the costume from step 1.
5. Name the character something very similar to your mastermind.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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I can see that us MMs could argue day and night over what powers are "expendable".|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
... I'd just move it to Tier 8 and swap out something else (what would depend on what's expendable in any given set).
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I'd personally say I'd give up one of the attack powers, but another person might think I'm crazy for suggesting such a thing.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
It would just give you that option of saying, "So, you've bested my minions, now see what power I possess!"
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I see an MM being more like "Damn you! You may have defeated my men, but I have legions to replace them... Just you wait!"
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That would be my thought. It might work, if you made it an Inherent, say a click power that you earned somehow, like Domination. But if you give up any of the pet powers then you cut into the MM's normal damage dealing abilities, and if you give up the attacks, then what's the point of the power? |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
How does having only two attacks play into your "the mastermind is really more powerful than the pets" strategy?
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Honestly, I don't really see Dr. Doom or Kingpin or Lord Recluse as a Mastermind anyway. They're Brutes or Corruptors (Recluse is an Incarnate...) that sometimes happen to send one of their cronies to fight you in place of them. The Joker or Penguin or Lex Luthor (without the Kryptonite powered battle suit) that's more what I think of as a Mastermind in the player character sense. They're never going to be around without some kind of minions surrounding them, and they're never going to be first into the battle. They may be somewhat dangerous in combat, but once their minions are gone, they're going to hightail it out of there.
The thing is, it's not really the damage that makes a Mastermind "weak", it's his selection of attacks. If you give him additional damage to compensate for the fact that he has only three attacks, (and they're extremely Endurance inefficient) then you end up with a situation like Containment, where filling out a full attack chain lets you do extremely high amounts of damage. And unlike Controllers, there is no problem with a Mastermind's damage in the absense of an Inherent doubling his damage.
Now, if you could use a click power that would exchange his pet powers for attacks, maybe like a Kheldian's Form Shift, that would be one thing. But then he would be a Corruptor.
And seriously, if after Batman defeats all of his henchmen, Joker can turn around and say, "Now see what *I* can do," and he turns around and defeats Batman, then he never needed the henchmen in the first place.
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Bingo.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
And seriously, if after Batman defeats all of his henchmen, Joker can turn around and say, "Now see what *I* can do," and he turns around and defeats Batman, then he never needed the henchmen in the first place.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Why would I ever humiliate myself by letting the heroes think they were my equal? With my thralls in the fray I lever my magic against them. If my thralls fall I will simply dominate more. Preferably one of the hero's family.
I would give my Thralls my twin pistols if I thought it would make them more adept at serving me, I would never give up my thralls for more personal weaponry. They serve me too well. I am many.
- I'm happy with my primary being entirely pets. Wish I had some customization for them. I wish my set bonuses enhanced them and not me. I am also pleased with nice support secondaries. I am not interested in pets/blast combination. MM's couldn't gain any personal attack power without a sacrifice and any possible sacrifice is too great.
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Comments on this Post You just debuffed your credibility. How about learning to play the game as intended, rather than constantly suggesting the game be changed to fit your 'concept'? |
Comments on my first post.
First, I have rep disabled. Why do people insist on posting in comments I'm unlikely to see? If you disagree, post it in the thread so your disagreement can be discussed. That is the point of a discussion thread, after all.
Second, this thread is just intended to discuss an idea. God forbid someone should want to discuss an idea, I have no idea why it gets so many panties bunched up that I make suggestions from time to time.
Ideas are important. Even bad ones. Sometimes they will spark some discussion that will lead to a really GOOD idea. The only way the game will get better (not saying it's bad) is if we discuss ideas that might add to it.
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qft
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Originally Posted by ultimo_
ideas are important. Even bad ones. Sometimes they will spark some discussion that will lead to a really good idea. The only way the game will get better (not saying it's bad) is if we discuss ideas that might add to it.
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Not sure if it was said, but it needs to be said regardless.
Granted you want this concept, but their weakness is that moment when they have no pets out. It's not a matter of comic book lore, its a matter of balanced coding. All of the ATs in the game have this predetermined weakness to make the game fair. If tanks could do blaster level damage, then they'd be overpowered because they can absorb an insane amount themselves.
Mastermind hands down is my favorite AT in the game. But coding it so MMs are a force w/o pets would go against design.
Maybe in the future there can be an AT designed for what you're asking for.
You know this makes me think back to when I was thinking about how I would have designed the Villain Patron Powers.
One of the ideas I imagined for a power in Black Scorpion's patron powers was a kind of Keldian-like power.
Scorpion Armor: When toggled on it:
- Triples the Mastermind's base hit points
- Adds 50% Resistance to all (Except Psionics)
- Adds 30% Defense to all (Except Psionics)
- Suppresses all Primary attacks (Summons, Upgrades, and tier 7 powers are still available), Secondary powers, and Pool powers
- Suppresses Bodyguard Mode (Note: Your pets can still benefit from Supremacy)
- Grants you player friendly* versions of Black Scorpion's powers
Aside: I don't know about the rest of you but I wouldn't feel bad if the Mastermind patron pools were scrapped altogether. I didn't play my Thugs/TA for weeks after I got him to 44 and wanted to try out Thunder Strike. I was already getting bored of him, and the piddly damage that power did to grey enemies was heart wrenching.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
Depending on your boys is what a MM is all about dude.
Anything else is some other AT.
If you wanna be stronger than your pet roll a dom. 
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Ditto
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Originally Posted by beyeajus74018
Depending on your boys is what a MM is all about dude.
Anything else is some other AT. If you wanna be stronger than your pet roll a dom. |
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I think that's where your problems lie with the MM class. Villains such as the Joker don't really fall into the mastermind category. The clown of crime, e.g., would be more of a natural origin corruptor with some Henchmen (read: lower level villains) in his Villain Group.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Heh, I actually play bots (though I do have a Thugs MM based on the Joker).
As for encouraging petless MMs, I say sure! After all, there are times when the comic book equivalents (as I said above, Luthor, Doom, Joker, Recluse, etc.) fight without their cronies/assistants/what have you. |
A mastermind as in CoV is, essentially, more like a crime boss. Most likely not at the top of the pack because of fighting prowess, but for other reasons (hereditary, monetary, whatever). Of course he CAN fight, but he won't be the most impressive of combatants.
Power doesn't always translate into actual personal might. Take a guy in his mid-sixties, overweight, bad joints. Not powerful. Now, put a remote for a friggin' tac-nuke into his palsy fingers, and voilá, all of a sudden, he has enough "power" to hold a city ransom.
If personal power is what you wish, fine - there are 4 other ATs. If you want personal power AND henchmen, well, either you accept game balance reasons and roll with being forced to take the "frail guy with the backup muscle" path, or you grab some players on low-level toons and let them be your henchies.
I personally like it the way it is. I have never seen a petclass take the approach at sharing power between pet and master that far, in not a single MMO. If you want a petmaster whose pets are only for decoration and can be two-shotted by just about anyone, but with you having more personal power - there's a couple dozen MMOs out there that are doing just that. I personally find it boring. That's where taste comes into play
I feel mm's are fine as is power wise, may be in the future you can have some kind of Super Bg mode, where you could sacrifice your pets, and maybe your attacks switches to what the pets were. You would not be stronger, just more mobile for a short period of time. Think mm's moment of glory. Would have to be really fast timers on it though for balance, but dont see it happening anymore then my bots merging with me to form a power suit.
Personal attacks in the tags are childish and unwelcome. Accusing me of lying about something is an attack on my integrity, which I take very personally. My integrity is very important to me, DO NOT denigrate it, or you WILL be reported.
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Ah the anonimity of the internet. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Personal attacks in the tags are childish and unwelcome. Accusing me of lying about something is an attack on my integrity, which I take very personally. My integrity is very important to me, DO NOT denigrate it, or you WILL be reported.
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Gotta love people who don't have the guts to say something in a direct reply and prefer to do it where you can't find out who they are.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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