Damage output
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2009-12-09 20:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
If it's not for GMs, AVs and purples bosses....why do you want the single best damage? Any blaster/scrapper is more then enough to finish a mob in a few secondes....|
Originally Posted by Player99
solo isnt the question though, its for a team setting, and with a team you need to factor in that there will be at least 1 damage dealing AT on it, which outshines the Def as even though the def sets up the team to do more damage, all it's doing is makign the Damage AT even better, thus keeping it's rank as the damage dealer of the group.
also, should like 5% of the games content (GM's) be taken in consideration for which does a better job, as the GMs have specific requirments you need to fill to beat? |
If you want to take a team into consideration.... then you'd have to find a way to make it fair. Obviously, a team of 7 scrappers will much prefer to have a kin, rad, dark, etc with them then a blaster. While a team of offenseless defender/controller/tanker would prefer a blaster.
Since a blaster and a defender are so different, you can't put them in the "same" team of 7, and expect it to be fair.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Quote:
VVVVV|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
If it's not for GMs, AVs and purples bosses....why do you want the single best damage? Any blaster/scrapper is more then enough to finish a mob in a few secondes....
If you want to take a team into consideration.... then you'd have to find a way to make it fair. Obviously, a team of 7 scrappers will much prefer to have a kin, rad, dark, etc with them then a blaster. While a team of offenseless defender/controller/tanker would prefer a blaster. Since a blaster and a defender are so different, you can't put them in the "same" team of 7, and expect it to be fair. |
Quote:
| 1. fully slotted for damage. playing team only. |
anywho, the defender builds shouldnt matter as long as fire/mental exists. It has -regen available, in blaster form.
A side question. Does anyone know what the highest damaging power in the game is for ST and AoE. I was thinking it was Total Focus (prob blaster version w/ build up, aim, assault, and I/Os). Probably a nuke for AoE right?
Quote:
depends...|
Originally Posted by Darth_Vernon
A side question. Does anyone know what the highest damaging power in the game is for ST and AoE. I was thinking it was Total Focus (prob blaster version w/ build up, aim, assault, and I/Os). Probably a nuke for AoE right?
|
for reliable damage i think Blaze wins no question. Possibly with KO Blow in second. Overall however Total Focus and Energy transfer put out the epic power in one shot, but have horrid animation times and i believe recharge times.
AoE wise, Rain of arrows is where it's at if you are looking at reliable damage you can kinda spam, but Blizzard on a Corruptor wins AoE no contest.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Player99
depends...
for reliable damage i think Blaze wins no question. Possibly with KO Blow in second. Overall however Total Focus and Energy transfer put out the epic power in one shot, but have horrid animation times and i believe recharge times. AoE wise, Rain of arrows is where it's at if you are looking at reliable damage you can kinda spam, but Blizzard on a Corruptor wins AoE no contest. |
If you're talking only of damage, as in burst, then blazing bolt (fire's snipe) wins.
If you're talking highest DPS, there's a bunch of better power then KO Blow, namely Clobber and Seismic Smash, wich both recharge faster then KO Blow.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Quote:
lol, forgot about snipes...|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
If you're talking only of damage, as in burst, then blazing bolt (fire's snipe) wins.
If you're talking highest DPS, there's a bunch of better power then KO Blow, namely Clobber and Seismic Smash, wich both recharge faster then KO Blow. |
anywho, with DPS Blaze wins no contest I belive. The thing does like...51.21 DPS by itself with just SO's, and has 309.95 DPA. (blaster #'s)
dunno if anything outperforms it in both areas anywhere with other AT's
I think I asked the question wrong. For sheer orange #s, what single powers puts up the most damage against even con mobs w/ equal resists? Whats the biggest orange number possible against even con mobs w/ equal resists?
Hope that makes sense. Thanks for answers though. I think ur on the right thought process tho.
Quote:
Maybe you were thinking of the damage cap. Once you hit your AT's damage cap, you can't do more damage, UNLESS, you can reduce the target's damage resistance. As far as I know, there is no negative damage resistance cap.
|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Oops. Not sure what I was thinking then. I have this nagging (and apparently wrong) thing in the back of my head telling me that damage and resistance debuffs are not reduced as much or in the same way as to-hit and defense debuffs. I don't know why, I must be getting it mixed up with something. I hate when the brain gets full. That will teach me to post while I am trying to figure out how to do plumbing.
|
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
ST? Assassin strike. just pick your flavor of primary i think.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Vernon
I think I asked the question wrong. For sheer orange #s, what single powers puts up the most damage against even con mobs w/ equal resists? Whats the biggest orange number possible against even con mobs w/ equal resists?
Hope that makes sense. Thanks for answers though. I think ur on the right thought process tho. |
AoE? Blizzard (esp. corruptor, since it scourges)
Quote:
Yeah, but -regen is fairly unimportant for large team play, unless you're specifically targetting AV/GMs, simply due to the speed at which mobs die in group settings. |
Originally Posted by Player99
anywho, the defender builds shouldnt matter as long as fire/mental exists. It has -regen available, in blaster form.
|
Providing -Def or -Res is far more effective, or heck -Rech or -Acc to keep your tank safer, or squishies from getting hit in case the tank fails to hold aggro (which is possible in a blaster heavy team).
This is a fun discussion. I've really enjoyed reading the responses, and how people approach the initial question from a different viewpoint
Quote:
Uh, what? Almost no Controller secondaries deal much damage, and those that do do not get the containment bonus. Controller primaries set up containment damage and deal it as well. In fact there's really no point to having the Blaster use any mez since the first Controller to attack using his primary would set up containment for subsequent attacks.|
Originally Posted by Gaia
How about any blaster with a mez setting up containment for a team of 'trollers that only use their secondaries - that's about 80 odd % -
 |
Overall your suggestion makes little to no sense. If the Controllers aren't using their primaries they won't benefit from setting up containment, and if they are there's no need for the Blaster to do so. It's a very unlikely and silly scenario where the Blaster is still only really contributing their normal damage output.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
this was brought up in a different thread in regards to damage contribution, but:
who else provides AoE damage like the average blaster can?
Quote:
Fire/Kin Controller, Fire/Psy Dom? i mean assuming you factor in the need to survive the response so that they can continue using the AoE's. |
Originally Posted by Player99
this was brought up in a different thread in regards to damage contribution, but:
who else provides AoE damage like the average blaster can? |
In terms of personal AoE damage, and assuming teammates providing the support/aggro control to survive the aggro generated, then Blasters can be best with the right sets. Which is still not the same as total damage contribution when on a team.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
the more I look at it across different threads, the more it seems blasters need more tweaking:
they dont provide enough "cannon" to counteract their "glass", i mean if a blaster can do 280 DPS, a scrapper could do 230 while being 5x as tough. Thats just plain disproportionate....
In teams they apparently dont even contribute damage anymore is everyone makes everyone else do more damage, meaning a team of 8 can outdamage a blaster on the team...
what the heck is the point of blasters nowadays?
Quote:
Well, blasters benefit even more than the others from damage buffs due to higher base damage and caps, and they, like any AT, can also take leadership to supply force multiplication of their own. In my opinion more than two Blasters on a team contributes more to team effectiveness than multiple Tankers or Scrappers. Controllers and Defenders still contribute the most in a team setting, but even there more than 2 of most powersets on the team tends to result in diminishing contributions, which is not true with Blaster powersets.
|
Originally Posted by Player99
the more I look at it across different threads, the more it seems blasters need more tweaking:
they dont provide enough "cannon" to counteract their "glass", i mean if a blaster can do 280 DPS, a scrapper could do 230 while being 5x as tough. Thats just plain disproportionate.... In teams they apparently dont even contribute damage anymore is everyone makes everyone else do more damage, meaning a team of 8 can outdamage a blaster on the team... what the heck is the point of blasters nowadays? |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
You're right. Blasters don't really have that significant an advantage over the other damage-heavy archetypes, but they have a significant survivability disadvantage. They are not force multipliers and they don't bring vastly more raw damage than more durable platforms (Scrappers, Brutes, some Tanks). One example stands out in my mind when considering melee damage dealers that step on Blasters' toes: not long ago, Shield Charge on all ATs was modified to correctly reflect the melee modifier. When I found out Scrapper shield charge was 200 base damage I burst out laughing. (If you want to know how much damage this is, Blaster Rain of Arrows only does 225 base damage. This is the best nuke of any Blaster primary and it only barely edges out an attack from a melee secondary.) It may also interest you to know that Fireball does the same damage on both my Scrapper and Blaster, although the Scrapper version does have twice the recharge. One wonders why seperate melee and ranged modifiers exist at all if they are not going to be used.|
Originally Posted by Player99
the more I look at it across different threads, the more it seems blasters need more tweaking:
they dont provide enough "cannon" to counteract their "glass", i mean if a blaster can do 280 DPS, a scrapper could do 230 while being 5x as tough. Thats just plain disproportionate.... In teams they apparently dont even contribute damage anymore is everyone makes everyone else do more damage, meaning a team of 8 can outdamage a blaster on the team... what the heck is the point of blasters nowadays? |
Now, I don't think that the game is hard enough that any of the above examples are going to create vast performance differences. I assume the developers have their reasons for making things the way they are, or plan to eventually look at whatever imbalances exist. On the other hand, I don't think the current situation is balanced, either. Blaster damage ought to be looked at.
the question is, how much damage should they be doing?
for example, say their damage mod was made to be 1.25, a rough geustamate would be that Umbral's theoretical fire/elec/elec blaster build will jump from doing 320dps, to 356ish dps.
that is enough to solo anything in the game with raw power alone, and probably enough to make content trivial alltogether as you go around 2shotting everything, this is without BU or Aim considered...
another option would be to nerf the "glass" part, but then what makes them different from the melee ATs then, besides that they have range and more attacks?
another route though could be to simply make defiance more rewarding...
All the top end damage builds from other ATs that come close to blaster output take time to warm up to that level, whether through Fury, AAoA, Dark Melee's BU (name escapes me...) or summoning multiple pets or stacking buffs/debuffs.
The point is, they all usually dont do it out of the box, but they are capable of approaching the output while having other benifits that far outweight the gap. What I propose is a buffed defiance, so that blasters can emulate this effect that their competitors posess to reach them. Perhaps either a global buff (say a slightly higher mod of how the buff is applied, making the 7.7% mod from the tier 1 into 8.8 or so) or a situational buff to a few powers in each set that would make each blaster more effective (for example, flamethrower would give a huge defiance boost for AR's other AoEs, etc)
EDIT: another thing could just be to let the Defiance buff last longer so it stacks better per attack..
thoughts?
Quote:
According to Mids the base damage a Scrapper or Brute has for Shield Charge is 133.5 damage on a 90 second recharge.| When I found out Scrapper shield charge was 200 base damage I burst out laughing.(If you want to know how much damage this is, Blaster Rain of Arrows only does 225 base damage. This is the best nuke of any Blaster primary and it only barely edges out an attack from a melee secondary.) |
Rain of Arrows is base 225.2 on a 60 second recharge. The ratio of damage/recharge is more than two and a half times as good as Shield Charge. It's not even close.
Other nukes do better damage than RoA but are on longer recharges (360 seconds each).
Nova, Psychic Wail, Dreadful Wail, Atomic Blast: 305
Inferno: 472
Blizzard: 550.5
Heck, Fireball does 78.8 damage on a 16 second recharge (a damage/recharge ratio nearly three times higher than Shield Charge, and available at level 2).
Edit: Forgot to add that most Blasters can stack Defiance on top of Build Up on top of Aim to make these numbers even more substantial.
Quote:
Mid's doesn't have the latest numbers on scrapper shield charge. It does *substantially* more damage than the brute version now.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
According to Mids the base damage a Scrapper or Brute has for Shield Charge is 133.5 damage on a 90 second recharge.
Rain of Arrows is base 225.2 on a 60 second recharge. The ratio of damage/recharge is more than two and a half times as good as Shield Charge. It's not even close. Other nukes do better damage than RoA but are on longer recharges (360 seconds each). Nova, Psychic Wail, Dreadful Wail, Atomic Blast: 305 Inferno: 472 Blizzard: 550.5 Heck, Fireball does 78.8 damage on a 16 second recharge (a damage/recharge ratio nearly three times higher than Shield Charge, and available at level 2). Edit: Forgot to add that most Blasters can stack Defiance on top of Build Up on top of Aim to make these numbers even more substantial. |
Quote:
Mids' is a third party tool. It is useful but not guaranteed to be up-to-date or accurate (in fact I think it still calculates Fire Blast DoT wrongly).|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
According to Mids the base damage a Scrapper or Brute has for Shield Charge is 133.5 damage on a 90 second recharge.
Rain of Arrows is base 225.2 on a 60 second recharge. The ratio of damage/recharge is more than two and a half times as good as Shield Charge. It's not even close. Other nukes do better damage than RoA but are on longer recharges (360 seconds each). Nova, Psychic Wail, Dreadful Wail, Atomic Blast: 305 Inferno: 472 Blizzard: 550.5 Heck, Fireball does 78.8 damage on a 16 second recharge (a damage/recharge ratio nearly three times higher than Shield Charge, and available at level 2). Edit: Forgot to add that most Blasters can stack Defiance on top of Build Up on top of Aim to make these numbers even more substantial. |
Shield Charge does 200 base damage on a Scrapper. I know this because I actually own and play a SD Scrapper; if you don't, you can see the real numbers at [scrapper_defense.shield defense.shield charge] to specifically refer the Scrapper version. While Rain of Arrows is also numerically the superior attack in almost every way (recharge, damage, range, radius, accuracy), Shield Charge has some subtle advantages of its own, such as the 1.5s animation time which makes it an extremely fluid and responsive attack that's much less prone to corpse blasting. You also ignore that while Blasters have Aim (Defiance has little effect on a massive alpha strike power such as Rain of Arrows), the Scrapper has AAO. Note that this is an attack from a Scrapper secondary. Add the AoE output from the primary and APP (since Blasters don't get AoE damage attacks in theirs) and the difference narrows even further. Blasters certainly do more damage, the advantage is just not as large as the survivability disadvantage is.
Rain of Arrows is the best (not necessarily most damaging) Blaster nuke. This is because it is not a cone and it does not have a crash, adding to the regular AoE output of the set rather than being a flashy but mostly situational trick outside of certain powerset combos. Your damage/recharge time numbers neatly ignore the fact that all other nukes save Full Auto crash endurance and recovery. When you quote numbers at people, please also consider the reality in which those numbers are used in the game.
Since I'm going to be accused of this sooner or later, I'll just add that I'm not whining. I think that Blasters do have sufficient survivability and damage for what they do. The devs might just place a higher value on ranged damage, for all I know. I still think that in terms of raw damage output Blasters aren't adequately compensated for the defense you give up when compared to melee damage ATs.
Quote:
Range is nearly pointless in the game. As you get to the late game everything outranges a blaster. More attacks is something you actually don't want. Having the good attacks up often enough is how high DPS is achieved so more mediocre ones is actually undesirable
|
Originally Posted by Player99
another option would be to nerf the "glass" part, but then what makes them different from the melee ATs then, besides that they have range and more attacks?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
When I found out Scrapper shield charge was 200 base damage I burst out laughing. (If you want to know how much damage this is, Blaster Rain of Arrows only does 225 base damage. This is the best nuke of any Blaster primary and it only barely edges out an attack from a melee secondary.) It may also interest you to know that Fireball does the same damage on both my Scrapper and Blaster, although the Scrapper version does have twice the recharge. One wonders why seperate melee and ranged modifiers exist at all if they are not going to be used.
|
Three numbers are the reason for that. 400, 800, 2500 = minion, lt, boss hp respectively. You can take out the minions with one shot but not anything else. Crashing nukes will take out lts but are on very long timers and leave you helpless.
Quote:
Blasters do more AoE damage then scrappers by far. It's not just a damage thing, it's an area thing. The blaster AoEs have much larger ranges and radiai, so they hit more spawn. (shield charge and lighting rod are a very glaring exception to this, but I'd say those 2 powers are unbalanced, not blasters). |
Originally Posted by Player99
the more I look at it across different threads, the more it seems blasters need more tweaking:
they dont provide enough "cannon" to counteract their "glass", i mean if a blaster can do 280 DPS, a scrapper could do 230 while being 5x as tough. Thats just plain disproportionate.... In teams they apparently dont even contribute damage anymore is everyone makes everyone else do more damage, meaning a team of 8 can outdamage a blaster on the team... what the heck is the point of blasters nowadays? |
Additionally, on most teams, there are enough forms of mitigation that scrapper survivabilty is completely worthless. You can just as easily say "blasters do more damage then scrappers, and they don't die... what's the point of scrappers nowadays?"
As far as blasters not being needed vs having more buffs/debuffs. You're missing something. A team of buffers and debuffers might be do a huge amount of force multiplying to make themselves equal or better then a team full of damage dealers. But if you add 1 or 2 damage dealers to that team of buffers/debuffers you'll have WAY more force to be "multiplied." A mixed team of buffers and damage dealers is better then all of 1 or all of the other.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
Quote:
On a well formed and well played team. Then again on a team with 4 or more buffers who play well what is the point of a blaster, scrapper, or tank ? The problem is getting those people together and having them all available. It sounds so much easier than it is. I'd be willing to bet one of the reasons that stacking buffs (like AM^8, Speedboost^8, etc) haven't been DRd or had some similar nerf, is that teams of mostly buffers are a very minor exception to the general rule.
|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Blasters do more AoE damage then scrappers by far. It's not just a damage thing, it's an area thing. The blaster AoEs have much larger ranges and radiai, so they hit more spawn. (shield charge and lighting rod are a very glaring exception to this, but I'd say those 2 powers are unbalanced, not blasters).
Additionally, on most teams, there are enough forms of mitigation that scrapper survivabilty is completely worthless. You can just as easily say "blasters do more damage then scrappers, and they don't die... what's the point of scrappers nowadays?" As far as blasters not being needed vs having more buffs/debuffs. You're missing something. A team of buffers and debuffers might be do a huge amount of force multiplying to make themselves equal or better then a team full of damage dealers. But if you add 1 or 2 damage dealers to that team of buffers/debuffers you'll have WAY more force to be "multiplied." A mixed team of buffers and damage dealers is better then all of 1 or all of the other. |
solo isnt the question though, its for a team setting, and with a team you need to factor in that there will be at least 1 damage dealing AT on it, which outshines the Def as even though the def sets up the team to do more damage, all it's doing is makign the Damage AT even better, thus keeping it's rank as the damage dealer of the group.
also, should like 5% of the games content (GM's) be taken in consideration for which does a better job, as the GMs have specific requirments you need to fill to beat?