Tanker Inherent Change !

As a man who makes solo efficient builds, I am unsatisfied with how the Tanker inherent Gauntlet does nothing to increase the player's survivability unlike all other inherents. While I understand that a change to Gauntlet is not of the highest priority and other changes have been recommended before, I think the Tanker's inherent should be strengthened to aid them personally since all other AT's inherents do.

Going Rogue also raises new questions such as "Why would I want a Tanker on my Team when I can have a Brute" and "Why play a Tanker when I can play a Brute" While the Brute is not as durable as a Tanker , he is pretty darn close and has Fury, a quality which may put him more in demand on a team than a Tanker.

A Tanker's inherent should simply be like a Critical Resistance. Simply put, the Tanker has a small chance to resist a large percent of the damage of an attack that lands on him. Gauntlet would still exist as it does for arggo mangement.

Of all the Archetypes, Tankers come up short in their inherent. Even Defender's inherent helps personal survivability on teams though I feel Vigilance also needs work. Tankers should have an inherent that benefits them personally like every other Archetype. I feel this change matches the concept of the Tanker well as it increases durability while not increasing damage and it maintains the Taunt of Gauntlet. If my change is unworkable then something else should be done.

You mentioned how Going Rogue is going to raise questions about why someone would pick a tank when they can pick a brute--the answer is GAUNTLET. The major difference between a tank and a brute is that tanks are specifically designed for damage mitigation and aggro control. Changing the tank inherent into something more "solo-friendly" would blur the lines between those two ATs even more. It's ironic that the way you intend to improve tanks is by making it more difficult for them to do what they do best--taking damage and making sure the rest of the team doesn't. If you change a tanker's inherent, the question wouldn't be "Why should I play a tanker when I can play a brute?", it would REALLY become "Why should I *INVITE* a tank when I can invite a brute?" The current answer is "because a tank does a better job of keeping us from getting killed".

And honestly, tanks don't need their mitigation boosted. If you're making squishy tanks, that's your own fault. They aren't an inherently vulnerable AT, you've just sacrificed mitigation for damage in your own personal builds.

I did read the whole idea, and I think you're going in the wrong direction. If anything, Guantlet should become more effective at drawing aggro rather than damage mitigation.

As for scrappers, their inherent currently matches their role--damage dealing. Scrappers are more solo friendly, and the ability to score critical hits reflects that.

I'm sorry, but scrappers aren't tanks--they aren't designed to fill the same role. Tanks are designed to be more team-based than scrappers. Being a tank means sacrificing damage for greater mitigation and aggro control. That's why the inherent is the way it is.

The issue that I have is that while tanks definitely have better survivability and aggro management tools, the toolset that brutes bring to the table is good enough for most of the situations that I've faced. While there may be more work involved in keeping a brute alive, a competent player can bring the same level of team support with a brute as with a tank and kill things faster to boot. Moreso when there are buffs available.

One idea that I've proposed occasionally is the modification of Gauntlet to make for an aggro cap boost. Essentially, each of a tank's attacks would give a boost to their aggro cap for a short time, similar to defiance with damage for Blasters. It probably wouldn't be much, like +1-2 to the cap per attack for 5- 10 seconds or so. This way, a tank would be significantly better at holding aggro than a brute, and would be better able to make use of their higher defences.

Because the Tank would need to be throwing out attacks to be able to keep up their cap boost, they wouldn't become significantly better at room-pulling, but if a stray group came by, or if two groups were close to one another, then the tank would have a clear edge in aggro maintenance over the brute.

I think that your "Critical Resistance" idea might not work to well or effectively. Because if your already at the resistance cap for a certain damage type then while your soloing if you happen to be fighting mobs that use that type of damage, the new gauntlet won't be aiding you at all.

I can't think of any resistance based set that doesnt reach the cap for some damage type except maybe WP? So you still wouldnt benefit all the time from this new gauntlet.

Edit: Only resistance sets that dont reach a cap with 3 Resistance IOs per armor is Dark Armor and WP, Dark Armor gets close to reaching psionic cap however; Ice Armor, a defensive set, even reaches a resistance cap for cold.

Something about this bugs me. I'm not quite sure *what* though. Can't seem to put my finger on it.. I think cryotech's probably close to it.

Still, a small secondary effect that simulates the tanker getting the enemies attention, helps protect the team, and is useful solo, on top of gauntlet?...

How about a -tohit debuff?

Throwing that out for the heck of it really. Just for the amusing image of "getting them so mad at me (the tank) that they can't shoot straight."

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The problem with making a new inherent for Tankers is this: we have too wide a variety of primaries to really help all equally. I know that that might not be a huge concern for some, but some of the ideas here show exactly what I'm talking about.

For the "Critical Resistance" idea, this helps Defense-based sets more than Resistance-based sets. Why? Because the Resistance-based sets already will mitigate most of the damage anyways, whereas the Defense-based sets will likely not. So, the Defense-based set will get more bang for the buck out of the critical resistance.

The -ToHit will similarly help some sets more than others. Defense-based sets that can get you close to the soft cap will benefit from this more than a Resistance-based set that grants little or no Defense (like Fire Armor or Dark Armor), because of how the ToHit formula works. Getting a Defense-based set to the Soft cap of Defense (of which, a -ToHit effect would help in a similar fashion as +Def) would grant them a huge benefit, but would not do much to help the Resistance-based set.

A scaling Aggro cap might help Tankers out in regards to Brutes (and I agree with a poster above that Brutes never should have been given Tanker caps on anything). However, it does little to help a Tanker solo, which seems to be where they have more problems.


So, the question is, how do you create an inherent that helps both Resistance-based and Defense-based sets relatively equally, while also helping out both the teamed and solo Tanker?

Since I don't want to be completely negative in this post, I'll propose the following idea:


Stand Fast

Like Domination or Fury, this becomes a new inherent for Tankers that increases the more that the Tanker attacks or gets attacked (probably will raise and lower more along the speed of Domination though, instead of Fury). When activated, this increases the Tankers protection and resistance against Mez effects (useful in certain situations), and also increases their Regen and Recovery.


Now, why Regen and Recovery? Well, Regen helps both Def-based and Resistance-based sets relatively equally, in my eyes. It might help Resistance-based sets a little more, since they tend to give the Tanker more time to heal, but with Defense, you should have more time to heal between each hit. Recovery, because Tanker DPE is pretty bad, so this could help there. There are a few scenarios out there where Mez effects can break through even the Tanker mez protection powers (Ghost Widow, going up against a lot of stunning foes, etc.), so putting a moderate increase to the Tanker for Mez protection and resistance could help out as well.

I'd definitely support something with an endurance-oriented bent for Tankers. My pet idea was that they should give Tankers Vigilance and then give Defenders something new, but it's just a thought.

Related question,

Does the Brute Taunt have the -range effect that Tanks have?

I don't know, out of all the ideas I have heard for Tanker Inherent changes, a "Reverse Critical" isn't really a bad idea. It wouldn't even have to be an increase in Resistance (thus running up against the cap) just 5% of the time the attack only does half damage. The only issue I see is how to implement it. (You could do something like Critical, split up the damage on every single attack and "if target=Tanker" make half the damage occur only 95% of the time, but I imagine editing every single attack in the game is more trouble than it is worth)

I did have a similar idea for Super Reflexes, though, before the scaling Resistances came along. A sort of "saving throw" where even if you are hit, you still can be partially missed. And there is some sort of mechanism that takes the damage incoming on a Mastermind and splits it. So maybe use the Mastermind mechanism, and 5% of the time divert half the damage to nowhere?

The usual suggestion, having resistance increase the more foes are hitting on the Tanker, is usually vetoed by the devs right away because of concern over what a scaling resistance would do. (Especially on top of another scaling defense like Invincibility) At least this idea, while variable, is variable in a completely random way.

I will point out, though, that no AT has an Inherent that gives them SURVIVABILITY. All Inherents except Tankers and Defenders give additional damage. Sure, a dead foe can't hurt you any more, but that is an indirect buff to your survival, not a direct one. (Whoops, add Dominators to the list of exceptions now too, forgot )

Tankers and Defenders, though, are unique in that their Inherent ISN'T offensive. It isn't really defensive, either, although Vigilance does give you more End for both attacks and defenses. And Gauntlet defends your teammates, even though it doesn't defend you. (And the Dominator's greater mitigation under Domination is still only because of greater controls, and still runs a risk of missing)

Realistically, Brutes and Scrappers are in competition rather than Brutes and Tanks.

Brutes and Tanks have different jobs and while a brute can serve as a tank better than most scrappers, they are still not true tanks.

A Brute on first glance at stats appears to be just as effective as a Tank, but there are some holes in the overall.

Brutes and Tanks have the same maximum Defenses, Resistances, Threat level and Taunt modifiers.

Brutes also have the same ability to slot taunt enhancements into attacks and auras.

However, that's where the similarities stop. That would seem to be the main functions that make a tank, but there are details, and details are always the things that trip us up.

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When the Brute attacks a target, even if he has taunt enhancements in his attacks, he taunts one target.

When the Tanker attacks a target, even if he doesn't have a taunt enhancement in his attacks, he taunts five targets.

That means, that a brute has to switch targets much more actively to keep aggro than a tank. In addition, when the brute switches targets the lack of gauntlet means that he will lose his aggro on old targets while he's trying to gain aggro on new ones, especially in the face of supporting fire from his teammates.

Taunt Auras are excellent for acquiring aggro, but in the face of blaster fire they require frequent reinforcing with taunt and/or gauntlet to maintain aggro.

Brutes lack this.

Likewise, while Brutes have the same maximum hit points as Tankers, they have only about 80% of the base hit points. As such, it will take them more effort to reach that maximum HP level.

This 20% drop has a bigger impact than you might think.

It translates to less regeneration as well, which translates to the resistances and defenses having to work harder for the same effect that tankers get.

A Brute's defenses have to defend a smaller pool of Health with a 20% slower rate of renewal.

In addition, while Brutes maximums are the same, their defenses are secondary. This results in two things: slower power acquisition (only a concern at low levels) and lower base levels, making it harder to reach those maximums.

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Looking at a comparison between an Invuln Tanker and an Invuln Brute

both have the following:

RP/TI/Uy/REl/REn/Us: +50% Res
Invin/TH: +50% Def
DP: +95% Heal/+95% Recharge
Health: at +95%
Phys Perfection: at +95%

Assuming each has the following 6 second attack cycle:

Melee Single Target, Melee Single Target, Melee Single Target, Taunt, PBAoE Attack (10 targets)

At level 50, with base HP, the Tanker has 1874.1 HP and the Brute has 1499.3 HP.

The Brute's resistance and defenses are as follows Total(Base):

Res. Phys: +11.25%(+7.5%) Smashing/Lethal
TI: +33.75%(+22.5%)
DP: +884.5575 Max HP, heal 1169.415, recharge at about 3m5s
Res. Ele: +11.25%(+7.5%) Fire/Cold/Toxic
Unyield: +5.25%(+3.5%) Smashing/Lethal +11.25%(+7.5%) F/C/T/E/N
Res. Ene: +11.25%(+7.5%) Energy/Negative
Invince: +5.625%(+3.75%) Defense +1.125%(+0.75%) per enemy/ +11.25%(+7.5%) max
Tough Hide: +5.625%(+3.75%) Defense
Unstoppable: +78.75%(+52.5%) Resist

Totals without Unstoppable:
Smash/Lethal: 50.25%
Energy/Negative: 22.5%
Fire/Cold/Toxic: 22.5%
Defense(w10 Enemies): 22.5% vs all but Psi

With Unstoppable:
Smash/Lethal/Energy/Negative/Fire/Cold/Toxic: 90%
Defense(w10 Enemies): 22.5%

HP without Dull Pain: 1499.3
HP with Dull Pain: 2383.8575

Regen Tick Size without Dull Pain: 74.965 HP
Regen Tick Size with Dull Pain: 119.192875 HP

Regen Ticks don't come per second, but with the regen speed increases from Health and Phys Perfection, that translates to:

HP/Sec w/out DP: 13.556 HP/sec
HP/Sec w/DP: 21.554 HP/Sec

The Tanker's resistance and defenses are as follows Total(Base):

Res. Phys: +15%(+10%) Smashing/Lethal
TI: +45%(+30%)
DP: +1105.6895 Max HP, heal 1461.7785, recharge at about 3m5s
Res. Ele: +15%(+10%) Fire/Cold/Toxic
Unyield: +7.5%(+5%) Smashing/Lethal +15%(+10%) F/C/T/E/N
Res. Ene: +15%(+10%) Energy/Negative
Invince: +7.5%(+5%) Defense +1.5%(+1%) per enemy/ +15%(+10%) max
Tough Hide: +7.5%(+5%) Defense
Unstoppable: +90%(+70%) Resist

Totals without Unstoppable:
Smash/Lethal: 67.5%
Energy/Negative: 30%
Fire/Cold/Toxic: 30%
Defense(w10 Enemies): 30% vs all but Psi

With Unstoppable:
Smash/Lethal/Energy/Negative/Fire/Cold/Toxic: 90%
Defense(w10 Enemies): 30%

HP without Dull Pain: 1874.1
HP with Dull Pain: 2979.7895 HP

Regen Tick Size without Dull Pain: 93.705 HP
Regen Tick Size with Dull Pain: 148.989475 HP

Regen Ticks don't come per second, but with the regen speed increases from Health and Phys Perfection, that translates to:

HP/Sec w/out DP: 16.945 HP/sec
HP/Sec w/DP: 26.942 HP/Sec

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Assuming an enemy to hit number of 50% with an accuracy of 1.00 with attacks that deal about 100 S/L damage with neither tank nor brute being in Unstoppable. Each of the surrounding 10 enemies attacking twice per 3 seconds.

The Brute would take 11 hits out of every 40 attacks. This would be 1100 damage over 6 seconds (each opponent attacking 4 times) reduced to 547.25 damage by resistances. Assuming Dull Pain is not up, 81.336 HP would heal over the same six seconds bringing the Brute to 1033.386. A total reduction of 465.914 HP over 6 seconds. Death in roughly 19 seconds.

With Dull Pain, the heal rates would be: 129.324 HP, and the HP total at the end would be: 1965.9315. This is a total reduction of 417.926. Death in roughly 34 seconds.

With Unstoppable without Dull Pain, the total damage would be: 110 damage over 6 seconds, of which 81.336 would heal, making a total reduction of 18.664. Meaning a loss of 559.92 HP (accounting for healing) by the time the Unstoppable drops at 3 minutes, which means you should be fine as long as the unstoppable doesn't drop during the fight.

With Unstoppable with Dull Pain, the total damage would be: 110 damage over 6 seconds, of which all of it would heal, resulting in no overall damage. Which means you should be fine as long as the unstoppable doesn't drop during the fight.

During the 6 second attack cycle, assuming each Single Target attack went to a different target, the Brute should have taunted 3 enemies 6 times (Single+Taunt+PBAoE+Invince 3 times), 2 enemies 5 times (Taunt + PBAoE + Invince 3 times), 5 enemies 4 times (PBAoE + Invince 3 times).

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The Tanker would take 8 hits out of every 40 attacks. This would be 800 damage over 6 seconds (each opponent attacking 4 times) reduced to 260 damage by resistances. Assuming Dull Pain is not up, 101.67 HP would heal over the same six seconds, bringing the Tanker to 1715.77 HP. A total reduction of 158.33 HP over 6 seconds. Death in approximately 71 seconds.

With Dull Pain, the heal rates would be: 161.652 HP, and the HP total at the end would be: 1965.9315. This is a total reduction of 98.348. Death in roughly 182 seconds.

With Unstoppable without Dull Pain, the total damage would be: 80 damage over 6 seconds, of which all of it would heal, resulting in no overall damage. Which means you should be fine as long as the unstoppable doesn't drop during the fight.

With Unstoppable with Dull Pain, the total damage would be: 80 damage over 6 seconds, of which all of it would heal, resulting in no overall damage. Which means you should be fine as long as the unstoppable doesn't drop during the fight.

During the 6 second attack cycle, assuming each Single Target attack went to a different target in the most efficient manner, the Tanker should have taunted 15 enemies 6 times (Single/Gauntlet+Taunt+PBAoE+Invince 3 times), which is more than the 10 enemies set earlier.

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The Brute and Tanker have pretty much identical survival times when Unstoppable is running, but without Unstoppable, the Brute has 26.76% of the survival of the tank without Dull Pain and 41.46% of the survival of the tank with Dull Pain. Without accounting for damage output, however.

Also note this is against Smashing/Lethal damage.

In addition, the Tanker is overlapping its taunts such that there is very little chance of 15 enemies escaping while the Brute is maintaining good aggro on just 3 opponents.

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Indeed, the question isn't Brute vs Tanker, but Brute vs Scrapper, but each of those has their obvious benefits and losses.

I like the Stand Fast idea. Another idea is that instead of a -tohit debuff every so many attacks there can be a -damage debuff. While other Tankers may benefit more from this, I feel any Tanker would welcome an inherent that causes a -damage debuff to multiple enemies every so often, like a 10% chance to cause a 25% damage debuff for 10 seconds.

Or hell make it both a -damage debuff and -tohit debuff so that it helps both resistance and defensive Tankers evenly.

You can justify this inherent as Memphis Bill said, that it makes the enemies reckless by angering them so much or whatever.