Task Force Mutternacht - Dr. Aeon's Challenge
IMPORTANT UPDATE:
'cause I love the CoX Boards Community - I am offering testing/reviews of any fellow Aeon Challenge Arcs if you will QPQ and comment here. Again, the arc is only up for feedback for one week before I submit.
New Updates:
- Informal testing is noting occasional critter/item spawning errors (stuck in walls). These don't happen all the time and maps vary. Not sure if this is the usual AE Map bugginess or not. Only recommendation I have is to log out of your toon, alt, and then relogin to the original toon and start the one mish over again.
- It's been noted that one of the bosses that appears in mish one and two (Blast Furnace) would be rather difficult for anyone with only fire damage. Both mishes that feature him come with a (non fire-based) ally available. FYI.
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Played through, couldn't finish the last mission, so I don't know what the last dialogue was. (Explain more below).
My thoughts: mission spoilers inbound.
Mission by Mission
Mission 1
- In the accept dialogue, there's this line, "You've stopped enough of them". Stopped enough what? The context sound like I've stopped enough police warehouses, that line didn't make sense.
- Pre-mission clue, Facemaker and new identity. While I love the idea of that, that you're in deep cover with a new look and identity, I'm really not, as I have the same costume I always wear. If this were the only time I had to suspend belief, I could live with it, as it is a sweet idea why I could do all the 'evil' stuff, but there are a few other times, and it sadly adds up.
- At first, I didn't like the 'we won't be meeting again' line, but I warmed to it.
Mission 2
- Phipps 'taking' the rifle. Nice. It's the little attentions to detail...
- "Going to have a look at this film" was the text on the bar as you clicked the glowie. Not if I don't want to. Another bit of forced part that adds up.
- Phipp's betrayal didn't work. When I killed Mr. Inquiry, it finished the mission, but that seemed ot trigger Phipp's betrayal. That's fine, knew he was gonna turn. But the line he said was, "I'll keep both." But I exited the mission without killing him, then in the outro text I'm giving the film to Indigo. It was a jarring line that didn't fit, broke the illusion of what I was doing if you will.
Mission 3
- Civilian Gym, working out. My character doesn't work out.
- "No, I won't do it" as the acceptance text. First, that's weird on a meta level, agreeing by saying I won't agree. Second, I really felt like my character wouldn't do it, regardless of what ever Indigo said. I had no reason to trust her word. I'll expand on this below, but at this point, if I didn't want to try and give you a review, I would have quit the arc right then and there.
- The goals in this mission just were weird and jumbled. I rescued Jackson before clicking the glowies, and before I rescued Vitale. It made Vitale's text when I rescued him rather odd.
- Punching Indigo, well, nice. Can't say I didn't like that.
- Maiden Justice. Hmm, I like the reveal, and how it now makes the arc fit into the challenge, but that's a pretty heavy blow against a staple character of the mythoes of the game.
Mission 4
- Really nice use of the mission dialogue as both dialogue and as stage setting, something different to spice things up.
- I hated Inquiry's dialogue in the last mission. Sure, I get that seeing the tape probably made him go off his rocker like that, but Indigo and I didn't go crazy from seeing the cursed tape, why did he? I didn't feel like I was beating up a hero to prevent a dark secret from getting out, I felt like I was silencing a madman, a villain. I can see what I think you were aiming for, but I much rather have fought the Inquiry from before, only this time having the truth for real on hand. I think making him go 'crazy' from the truth weakens him, and your arc. Fighting a sane Inquiry, only stronger knowing the truth at last, feels more in line with the challenge than the broken shell of the man he has become.
- 5 generators to power the Psi-McGuffin. Fair enough. Logically, if it takes 5 generators to power it, after destroying 1, logcially, doesn't it no longer have all the power it requires?
- I beat Inquiry before destroying the 5 generators. If he's arrested, is there any need to stop the generators?
- I beat Inquiry and blew up all 5 generators, but the mission didn't finish. I don't know if I had to defeat the mobs tied with them, so I just quit the arc at that point. Not sure what happened there, if I need to beat the spawns with the generators, would be nice to know. If not, not sure what happened there.
Overall impressions.
This never felt like a hero doing a villainous act for the greater good. This felt like a villain arc the entire way. I had no reason from the get go to agree to Indigo's suggestion to work under cover for something, and I need to have some sort of trust with Indigo for this arc to work.
Let me say that again, I need to trust Indigo for this arc to work. Indigo. The person I punch later in the mission. There's little buy in for the player or the character to go along with the arc, just Indigo's word that this is for the good. And that word gets very thin from the get go as you're fighting, framing, and destroying heroes.
If there were another mission, one that is just a normal mission from Indigo, where I come across some thing that requires me to go under cover, that invites me into the conspiracy. Maybe the player assists Inquiry halfway through this first mission, and he says he is looking for something, or, a psychic villain has read a stray thought about the tape, and while you defeat him in the first mission, reporting back to Indigo scares her, as this has gone from a normal run fighting you-know-who to something much, MUCH larger, with much more at stake, requiring you to do things for the larger good, then there is some personal buy in, rather than, "Here's some bad stuff, go do it, trust me!"
Also, it's very hard to stomach the thought that Maiden Justice was firebombing people without knowing why. Again, I think I see what you were doing, perhaps there was a reason why she was killing people like that, it mirrors your actions for the greater good. (And there has to be a reason she did it, if there isn't then just saying a hero was cold hearted like that is bad story telling, like I said, I never saw the last dialogue so I don't know for sure).
Don't mean to be so harsh, there's a great core idea in there, I think that it's just not fitting in the existing MA structure right now. There is some idiot ball handling in all arcs, I understand, but there seems to be too much here, and it distracts too much.
Hope you can smooth it out some more though!
Arc #345863 - When The Bough Breaks
"Curse you Perry the Plata...wait, is that Love Handel?" - Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz, Phineas and Ferb
In general response, there's only so much anticipation and adaptation I can expect of the PC and the player. I wish I could tailor it to the concept and characterization of each PC, but that's really impossible. The best I am hoping for is to sort of anticipate the player's thoughts and feelings when they occur in the arc, and try to mirror that in the missions.
Yes, the arc hijacks the PC on several occasions, but the thrust of the challenge almost demands that for most PC's characterizations.
- In the accept dialogue, there's this line, "You've stopped enough of them". Stopped enough what?
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"Going to have a look at this film" was the text on the bar as you clicked the glowie. Not if I don't want to. |
"I'll keep both." But I exited the mission without killing him, then in the outro text I'm giving the film to Indigo. It was a jarring line that didn't fit, broke the illusion of what I was doing if you will. |
My character doesn't work out. |
"No, I won't do it" as the acceptance text. First, that's weird on a meta level, agreeing by saying I won't agree. ...I didn't want to try and give you a review, I would have quit the arc right then and there. |
The goals in this mission just were weird and jumbled. |
I hated Inquiry's dialogue in the last mission. ...I can see what I think you were aiming for, but I much rather have fought the Inquiry from before, only this time having the truth for real on hand. |
Fighting a sane Inquiry, only stronger knowing the truth at last, feels more in line with the challenge than the broken shell of the man he has become. |
5 generators to power the Psi-McGuffin. Fair enough. Logically.... |
I beat Inquiry before destroying the 5 generators. If he's arrested, is there any need to stop the generators? |
I beat Inquiry and blew up all 5 generators, but the mission didn't finish. |
This never felt like a hero doing a villainous act for the greater good. This felt like a villain arc the entire way. |
Let me say that again, I need to trust Indigo for this arc to work....If there were another mission, one that is just a normal mission from Indigo... |
(And there has to be a reason she did it, if there isn't then just saying a hero was cold hearted like that is bad story telling... |
Don't mean to be so harsh... |
I'll be taking a look at yr arc ASAP.
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Quick Updates:
Fixed syntax issues on the "warehouse raid" issue mentioned by PsychoPez and another tester. Must have stuck out pretty bad
Also fixed the linked objectives in mission 3 to stop sequence breaking.
Fixed a logical error in the mission complete popup window text in mission 4. Logical error with the generators is being worked on, just need to find the right way to word what needs to be done.
Mission 1 has an issue that the Freak patrols are not battling the PPD Patrols, but setting them both to Rogue would probably cause them to fight intrafactionly - which also would not make any sense. Can someone confirm whether setting patrols to "Rogue" will have PPD fighting PPD and Freaks fighting Freaks? Thanks.
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
If I'm not mistaken, Rogues won't fight other Rogues.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Hi, I'd like it if you could check out my submission A Penny For Your Thoughts (348691) please, here's my comments on your arc below:
1... I need to gather opinions on which of these unfavorable choices is better.
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2... Are they necessary? They take up a lot of room and I'm uncertain how much they contribute to the tone of the story.
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I'll be touching on points 3 and 4 on my more general comments, spoilers below:
I noticed you haven't added keywords to your arc yet. I would definitely call this one non-canon, and probably challenging too given mostly to how the missions are set up currently (more on that below).
Your missions had a lot of patrols, as in so much so I was frequently fighting two, sometimes three groups at the same time. This jacked up the difficulty quite a bit, especially given how deadly high level Longbow get when in large numbers. If this wasn't you intent, I would recommend you scale the amount of patrols you have down by a lot.
There were a few typos and grammar errors, I'd recommend having a careful read through, or get someone else to help you proof read it.
The dictated actions and voice of my character: I'm not a fan of them, but I'm usually lenient if it's just the odd line of my character saying he'd agree to do whatever mission. There were quite a lot of times in this arc however that the actions and speech I found just really off to my character. Personally I would tone it down.
I think Indigo was laying it on a bit too thick that my hero would have to be making some hard choices. We all have an idea that we'll be doing something along those lines due to the nature of this competition, but even if I were to pick up and play this arc blind I would have thought there was too much repetition on this point.
I'm not sure why Indigo can't just strong-arm the police into handing over the evidence. Sure 'officially' she doesn't exist, but she's wielding enough power to pull any departmental strings, or mocking up whatever clearance she needs.
Is my hero stealing from the evidence lockers for personal gain? I was only aware that the specific glowie I was supposed to be looking for was a safe until later on, so me clicking on those lockers was to try and complete the objective, rather than to attempt a bit of looting.
Phipps is talking to me after I collected the canister, even though I never rescued him beforehand, and I'm pretty sure he was chained to only spawn after I picked up the canister to boot.
I think the chaining for the 2nd mission needs to make a bit more sense, I know why you did it that way, though it still feels a bit clunky.
Neat The Question/Rorscharch antagonist, especially fitting given the arc's nature. I would consider making his lines more terse though, I'd never be able to go through all that in-battle.
Really nice use of betrayal, first time I've seen it put to proper use.
The especially large Longbow spawn for The Inquiry in mish 3 seems overkill, especially since I'm pretty sure The Inquiry is running rage as well, again this is partly why you should tag your arc as challenging.
The building explodes, the public all turns their heads towards me and... I'm still in my villain disguise. Why am I taking a public call while still dressed up as a known villain?
So Indigo planned for several years to retrieve this canister, she finally does and destroys it... only to keep a copy on her person. Why? She knows how dangerous it is, if she remembered why she was so bent on destroying that canister, she would have destroyed that as well and avoided the situation in mish 4 in the first place.
I actually missed out on the beginning clue of mish 4 until about halfway, you may want to consider mentioning it at the end of the briefing.
The briefing mentions that Statesmen is an AV, but from his low hp I think he might actually be the pet version.
I think it would be worth breaking up some of the paragraphs in your arcs into smaller chunks.
Souvenir is a very nice touch, helps to drive it all home.
Edit: added URL
A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread
I had a few problems with this arc. I agree with above posters that a hero before committing crimes should have some very good reasons to do so. A shady person telling you it is for good cause is not good enough for me. Not sure how to improve on that except a complete rewrite of the arc. You might start with letting the first mission not be you fighting law officers. Or at the very least make the contact mention to be carefull not to hurt people more then necessary or something. THe debriefing mentioning casualties is very unheroic.
Then there is the Mr Inquiry is right about this subject. If maiden Justice is guilty of that attrocity then she will have to face Justice. Yes, it will cause a bit of unrest, but I doubt it will cause the apocalypse Indigo sketches. My hero would have walked right there if she had not done form the getgo.
I was unlucky with the last mission. After recruiting help to beat down Statesman (he had proved to me that a DB/WP scrapper has no business fighting him even with a tray full of inspiration) he adopted a Synapse Style combat and it ws some frantic running around before he finally got caught by the black tentacles and we could beat him senseless. Biggest question here is why should I fight him in the first place? After silencing MR Inquiry and the busting of the generators there is no reason to fight him. Get out fast is what you should do but that's me.
Problem was that the last generator was nowhere to be found even though the map was devoid of enemies. So I could not end this mission.
A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread
I noticed you haven't added keywords to your arc yet. I would definitely call this one non-canon, and probably challenging too given mostly to how the missions are set up currently (more on that below). |
Your missions had a lot of patrols...This jacked up the difficulty quite a bit... |
The dictated actions and voice of my character... Personally I would tone it down. |
I think Indigo was laying it on a bit too thick that my hero would have to be making some hard choices. |
I'm not sure why Indigo can't just strong-arm the police into handing over the evidence. |
Is my hero stealing from the evidence lockers for personal gain? |
Phipps is talking to me after I collected the canister, even though I never rescued him beforehand, and I'm pretty sure he was chained to only spawn after I picked up the canister to boot. |
Neat The Question/Rorscharch antagonist, especially fitting given the arc's nature. I would consider making his lines more terse though, I'd never be able to go through all that in-battle. |
The especially large Longbow spawn for The Inquiry in mish 3 seems overkill.. |
Why am I taking a public call while still dressed up as a known villain? |
Truthfully, it's because I didn't have enough characters to narrate you changing costumes again.
[QUOTE]So Indigo planned for several years to retrieve this canister, she finally does and destroys it... only to keep a copy on her person. Why?[QUOTE]
Because otherwise there would be no way for the player to learn what the hell is going on. I could "tell" the Player what was on the film, but it would happen way too early (mish 2), or you would just have to take Indigo's word for it. Logically she should probably never tell you or show you what's on it. However, there would be immense player/audience revolt if I just had you guys running these villianous mishes without a single reason why you were doing it other than "trust me". Showing the film, while breaking a certain amount of internal logic, is narratively necessary to sell the story.
The briefing mentions that Statesmen is an AV, but from his low hp I think he might actually be the pet version. |
Souvenir is a very nice touch, helps to drive it all home. |
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
I agree with above posters that a hero before committing crimes should have some very good reasons to do so. A shady person telling you it is for good cause is not good enough for me.... |
If maiden Justice is guilty of that attrocity then she will have to face Justice. |
Biggest question here is why should I fight him in the first place? |
If people think the number of spawns on the generators are cause of the error, I'll drop 'em down lickety-split. =D
I know a lot of this sounds adversarial, but thanks a lot folks!
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Ok some feedback:
First off, ditch the ampersands, ok? They just look sloppy. And then there is the level range. Aside from it being uneven (pet peeve alert!), there is also the problem of it being too low; Indigo approaches me as if she knows me, but she doesn't work with heroes below level 40. Then she tells me I have to trust her, and my immediate response is "why?" Now if I had worked with her before, I would know what kinds of stuff she deals with, and would be more inclined to trust her.
Instead, I am beating up PPD on the word of a complete stranger. Now the manager is crooked, that is immediately obvious, but the rest? If I can be persuaded that 1: it's necessary and 2: they're going to wake up in the hospital, I would be more inclined to go along. I also had a problem with the text on the optional blinkies in this mission; I'm pretending to be a villain, not crossing over to the dark side. Again, if I was stealing some money to cover up my real motives, that could be justified, but the implication of stealing for my own personal gain?
Mission 2: How does the PPD have evidence against Phipps? Longbow might, but the PPD? He operates strictly within the Rogue Isles, way out of their jurisdiciton.
Mission 3 suffers mostly from poor map choice, with the chained objectives and where they spawn there is quite a bit of backtracking, and Jackson sucks at following. Now that I have to fight Mr. Inquiry all by myself...why oh why must he have Rage? Half my Blaster's HP in one shot, and the to-hit buff cuts right through all the purples I ate. Seriously, this power should be removed from the custom critter list. Rewards shmewards, Rage is overpowered and should not be used on anyone. I finally dropped him after dying twice and running away a lot.
My annoyance factor is somewhat mitigated by me getting to punch Indigo in the face...but then Mr. Inquiry one-shots me, because it's in the script. Granted, I'm a squishy Blaster and if I'm dumb enough to let him into melee that's pretty much what would happen, but the same thing would have happened if I'd been playing, say an /SR Scrapper with mez protection, more HP and finely tuned senses that preclude anyone sucker-punching me, or a big chunk of Granite, or an SS/Invul...If he can barely dent you when you actually fight him, he shouldn't be able to one-shot you just because it's in the script. Aside from being immersion-breaking, it's taking liberties with your character.
And now that I know WHY I'm doing all this, I have to ask...is it really for the greater good? Judging from what I see on the tape, no, it's not. Because you see, my own personal morality would dictate that I expose the truth. I don't believe in letting people believe in an illusion. I don't believe in letting someone get away with something that heinous. I don't believe our heroes are shining paragons of virtue, and furthermore, I don't believe the average citizen believes that either.
Now if, somehow, there was evidence that what was shown on the tape was done for a reason...if that seemingly heinous act was either not what it looked like, or she was being framed, or she too was doing something evil for the greater good...then covering up the truth would be justified. I don't know that though. So at this point...are we living in a police state? Are we not allowed to question our "heroes?" The implications here are frankly kinda scary, especially considering the kind of people Indigo routinely deals with.
And now we come to the real deal-breaker: Statesman. Once he popped his god-mode, even with Silent Blade and Burning Daemon, I couldn't beat his regen. The psi chick got her butt kicked by him fairly handily early on, so she was no help here. Honestly his presence is unnecessary, and he seems to be there just to force me to do more bad stuff. So after a lot of kiting and waiting for god-mode to drop, I finally beat him down....and found that the last generator didn't spawn. Too many details? A patrol or ambush overriding the last generator spawn? No idea, but no way was I fighting Statesman again.
The thing is, even if finishing the arc would have given me some justification for my character's actions, it's too late. I am already forced into mission 4, into doing something that my character may or may not believe is right (in my case, a definite not), with not even a "I'll explain later, time is of the essence" to motivate me.
So yes, this is railroading. Furthermore, and even more problematic, is the fact that the arc dictates my character's thoughts and reactions. Really, this is unnecessary; I know I'm playing a hero, I know my character would feel uneasy about some of the things she's doing.
How can it be salvaged? Well, for one, Indigo expects me to trust her, why can't she trust me just a little? Tell me a little more of what is going on. Secondly, the scripted parts need to be reworked. I don't mind being told what I'm doing off-panel so much, it's the spelling out of my reactions. Even punching Indigo in the face, much as I, personally, would totally do it, would be out of character for some people. And getting one-shotted by Mr. Inquiry? No. Just no. And finally, I need a better reason. I don't agree with WHY my character is forced to do what she does, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. That is what ultimately breaks the arc for me.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Secondly, the scripted parts need to be reworked. I don't mind being told what I'm doing off-panel so much, it's the spelling out of my reactions. Even punching Indigo in the face, much as I, personally, would totally do it, would be out of character for some people. And getting one-shotted by Mr. Inquiry? No. Just no. And finally, I need a better reason. I don't agree with WHY my character is forced to do what she does, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. That is what ultimately breaks the arc for me.
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*Applies Fire Extinguisher to Own Butt*
Ooookay.
Indigo approaches me as if she knows me, but she doesn't work with heroes below level 40. Then she tells me I have to trust her, and my immediate response is "why?" |
I also had a problem with the text on the optional blinkies in this mission; I'm pretending to be a villain, not crossing over to the dark side. |
How does the PPD have evidence against Phipps? |
Mission 3 suffers mostly from poor map choice... |
I finally dropped him after dying twice and running away a lot. |
My annoyance factor is somewhat mitigated by me getting to punch Indigo in the face...but then Mr. Inquiry one-shots me, because it's in the script....Aside from being immersion-breaking, it's taking liberties with your character. |
1. Mr. Inquiry is a viable threat, and HAS A POINT about the desire for justice.
2. There should be a threat of the film being exposed, along with your crimes.
Which means that it sort of makes sense for him to get his hands on the film. I suppose that I could have Inquiry steal the player from Indigo at some nebulous time after your discussion with her but that sort of screws the narrative pace up, as well as brings the question of why Indigo has a copy of it just sitting out of being a tickling, annoying logical question into a glaring plot hole the size of the Hamidon. I can not drag the arc out any longer in order to make his theft of the film more believable. I've used every inch of text in order to inform the player of what is going. The film needed to be stolen by the last mission, there has to be a threat in order to motivate the final mission.
Please, in the name of god, offer me a solution here.
And now that I know WHY I'm doing all this, I have to ask...is it really for the greater good? .... Now if, somehow, there was evidence that what was shown on the tape was done for a reason...if that seemingly heinous act was either not what it looked like, or she was being framed, or she too was doing something evil for the greater good...then covering up the truth would be justified. |
Are we not allowed to question our "heroes?" The implications here are frankly kinda scary, especially considering the kind of people Indigo routinely deals with. |
I don't know if anyone has understood the title of the Arc, by the way. No one has once mentioned it as being somehow incongruent, or that it doesn't tie into the arc, so I assumed that people understood it. I'm starting to think that no one does. The title is a reference to Kurt Vonnegut's Mother Night, which is (among a great many other things) about an American "spy" who works as a high-level Nazi Propagandist. He does his job as a propagandist so well that the question really becomes whether or not he's actually more efficient as a Nazi than a sort-of wishy-washy spy. While the protagonist does presumably do some good as a spy for the Allies
(the reader is never definitively assured that he does), he is wracked by the evil he perpetrated and perpetuated in order to affect that nebulous good. In fact, he's considerably more famous for his evil acts than his secret good acts - and people are far more willing to reward him for the former than the latter.
That's the thrust of this arc. The hero will do terrible, evil things. They will not get a tidy medal or a glorious parade telling them that they saved the day. They will get questionable assurances and no explanations and a very heavy conscience. The only thing they have is a hope, the faith that their actions will affect something greater than themselves or the satisfaction of their conscience.
And that's all I'll say about the matter. It is not my intent to discuss ethics or personal morality on this board. My ethics are not necessarily those that are displayed in the arc. I am not telling you or any players that their moral objections are wrong.
And now we come to the real deal-breaker: Statesman. |
The generator spawn will be changed ASAP.
with not even a "I'll explain later, time is of the essence" to motivate me. |
So yes, this is railroading. Furthermore, and even more problematic, is the fact that the arc dictates my character's thoughts and reactions. Really, this is unnecessary; I know I'm playing a hero, I know my character would feel uneasy about some of the things she's doing. |
How can it be salvaged? |
Well, for one, Indigo expects me to trust her, why can't she trust me just a little? Tell me a little more of what is going on. |
However, this acted as a BIG spoiler, and there was no reason to believe it before the reveal occurred. Either I am breaking suspension of disbelief at the beginning or at the end (I guess).
Secondly, the scripted parts need to be reworked. I don't mind being told what I'm doing off-panel so much, it's the spelling out of my reactions. |
And finally, I need a better reason. I don't agree with WHY my character is forced to do what she does, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. |
Finally, let me say that I really, really respect your opinion Eva. I love your posts on the forum, I really respect your discretion and knowledge - particularly in relation to the AE. I will do everything I can to improve the arc (if I don't dump it entirely). I am rather emotional as a result of your criticism (mostly because I've received almost no positive response to the arc in general), but it's because I respect your judgment that it cuts pretty deep.
I hope I have not offended in return, because that would be a disservice. Thank you for spending your free time on the arc and more time in responding to it.
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Updated Changes
1. Pulled out the Heroes Of Paragon custom group. They were replaced by Longbow (for Blast Furnace) and PPD (guarding the generators & patrols in mish 4)
2. Updated chained objectives in Mish 2: Never noticed that the safe spawns at the beginning, allowing a player to sequence break and never rescue Phipps. This resulted in a change to how other patrols/ambushes spawn.
3. Moved the Mr. Inquiry Ambush in mish 3 to spawn on the completion of an escort. With no allies, and Inquiry's general difficulty - it really is too much.
This results in dropping the arc from 99.9X% full to 74.XX% - enough for a short small mish at the beginning to establish a rapport between Indigo and the PC. I'll be working on this independently - but it might necessitate a republish.
Also have some grammar changes to make in the near future.
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Just for the record, I didn't actually rate the arc in-game, since I don't rate anything I don't finish.
The arc does assume some familiarity. There are several arcs out there were the standard contact presumes familiarity without any further question from the player or the PC. I presumed I could extend this to my own arc, which is apparently not the case. |
As far as the level range being too low, I did this because there's very little in the arc in the way of critters or mobs that can't be handled by someone of that range. It was to open up the range of PCs that could play, not necessarily that it's limited to the 40+ crowd. I'd prefer more toon have the opportunity to playing than not. I get a twinge of exclusivity when I see a arc designed for endgame toons at 40+. |
Which is exactly how I fought and won against him. Three deaths, actually. This is not an invalid strategy. |
1. Mr. Inquiry is a viable threat, and HAS A POINT about the desire for justice. 2. There should be a threat of the film being exposed, along with your crimes. Which means that it sort of makes sense for him to get his hands on the film. |
Honestly? I don't know how to handle this.
Emphasis put here because if you were clearing someone's name because they were being framed, then it would not be an evil act. The greater good here is your hope that it will turn out for the best, that things will not become worse as a result of your actions. |
That's the thrust of this arc. The hero will do terrible, evil things. They will not get a tidy medal or a glorious parade telling them that they saved the day. They will get questionable assurances and no explanations and a very heavy conscience. The only thing they have is a hope, the faith that their actions will affect something greater than themselves or the satisfaction of their conscience. |
And this is the crux of the problem I had. If Maiden Justice had HAD to perform a dirty act for the greater good, even if the true motives relied on a bit of faith in her good nature on my part, covering it up would be much more "the right thing". What we got on the tape is nearly impossible to explain away, even in the character's own mind.
In all of the testing I did, with three allies pet!States went down like a punk. No clue what is going on here unless the stupid updater changed him to the AV version when I wasn't looking. What difficulty were you running at? |
The only thing I can say here is a crappy phrase that I hate, but seems apt here. "Silence equals consent". Basically, if I didn't keep indicating that the PC has qualms about this, it would suggest that I was railroading their blithe approval of the events EVEN MORE. *shrug* I don't know how to get around that. |
And then there's the Heroic tag. As far as I'm concerned, that's enough.
I considered this earlier. I considered Indigo telling the PC, "Look, you're going to be covering up a crime. A horrific crime. An atrocity. You can't change what happened, you can't bring the perpetrator to justice. If you did, it would only make things worse." However, this acted as a BIG spoiler, and there was no reason to believe it before the reveal occurred. Either I am breaking suspension of disbelief at the beginning or at the end (I guess). |
Okay. How? What would be acceptable? How much can I ask the reader/player to meet me in the middle? |
As I mentioned, I can't address this. I can't. You will either find that the justification supports the means or you won't. I can't account for everyone's taste on this mission. And that is the damned trouble with this Challenge. It asks people to question how much evil is acceptable for the purposes of good? No one has a easy or a simple answer to that, as each one of these arcs shows. People will have very visceral, very strident emotional reactions to it. I can't stop that, and I really won't stop it. These arcs are going to be provocative, they are intended to be. |
I guess it comes down to, no, I don't feel the ends justify the means. And just to clarify, I am firmly on the cynical side of the scale, where heroes sometimes have to kill, or sacrifice hundreds of innocents to save thousands. I could justify everything my character did in this arc, up to letting someone get away with mass murder...but I can't agree with the end motivation itself.
I am rather emotional as a result of your criticism (mostly because I've received almost no positive response to the arc in general), but it's because I respect your judgment that it cuts pretty deep. |
Ok, what it does right: Escalation of morally dubious actions. First I steal some evidence...no permanent harm done, and I have a lead on a crooked cop. Then I free a suspected criminal...maybe he'll go on to hurt people, or maybe Longbow will just catch him again. Everyone I'm beating up along the way will just end up in the hospital. Then comes the smear campaign...this guy isn't the type to make friends, so this could do permanent damage. Then I start helping people get away with murder. That's about as permanent as it gets.
The choice of contact is also good. So is the character of Mr. Inquiry. I also liked the whole pre-made villain persona I was given; I don't consider that a character hijacking, since it's essentially a fancy fake ID. The cloak and dagger scripted bits were totally appropriate. Mechanically the arc was sound, except for the parts I've already mentioned. Clues and briefings were well-written. Good pacing. The backtracking was only problematic on that one map, because there are two ways you can go and if you go the wrong way you have to run through four times. The maps are small enough that backtracking once isn't that big a deal.
And I do think the actions taken in this arc can be justified, even though they're pretty bad.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
My thoughts will be in my One a Day thread.
Is it really worth it just for slightly more XP? I dunno. Mr. Inquiry is a good antagonist not because he's super-hard, but because he just won't quit. |
If Maiden Justice had HAD to perform a dirty act for the greater good, even if the true motives relied on a bit of faith in her good nature on my part, covering it up would be much more "the right thing". What we got on the tape is nearly impossible to explain away, even in the character's own mind. |
Now if I'd actually had to beat up Psyche...that would make sense. Or even if I'd had to go through Miss Liberty since AP is her turf. |
I am simply making a horrible person look good. |
Ok, what it does right: Escalation of morally dubious actions. |
And I do think the actions taken in this arc can be justified, even though they're pretty bad. |
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Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
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Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Final Note for the evening:
Looking back at the text for mission 4, I think that I've worded Indigo's response very stridently, that I've made her sound far more convinced that the film is genuine than I intended. The Still Busy text highlights some doubt in the PC's mind (yes, this is hijacking, sorry), but I suppose I should have crafted the text to provide more ambiguity.
It's the ambiguity that perhaps gives the PC a hope spot that they are not colluding to allow a crime to go unpunished. Well, other than their own.
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Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
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Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Recent Updates:
1. Changed Mr. Inquiry to Custom SS (Standard + Foot Stomp) to get rid of Rage from his Hard SS. Hopefully this will keep him from one-shotting everyone.
2. Changed Accept text in mission 4: introduced more doubt into whether the film is actually real, made Indigo less strident that the film shows objective truth (which was the original intent). Also did less hijacking in how Inquiry gets the film (he steals it from Indigo instead of KO'ing the PC). Changed the Mission Start text accordingly.
To Do List:
1. Look into the potential intro "rapport" mission, although it looks like we might have to change the level of the arc to 40+ to be consistent with Indigo's normal missions.
2. Because of the above, Blast Furnace might have to be replaced with another hero - which will require new scripting.
3. Consider making the final boss Ms. Liberty, although I remain iffy on whether that will actually improve the arc or not.
Still looking for opinions. BTW, would ppl here want to see the new text (so as not to redo the entire arc - unless you want to)?
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Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
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Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Okay, recommendations? I have to bring this to a lot of different people and because of the nature of the challenge, I have to sort of guide the PC toward the "necessary evil". How else would you recommend that I do so?
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This was basically to try to establish some trust between them, that Indigo knew you would have objections. I guess these are coming across as platitudes. Not sure how to deal with that.
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Nope, just presenting the player with the opportunity and some temptation. It's up to you if they actually swiped something.
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He's actually based more on "Mr. A", another objectivist Steve Ditko "hero". He's a lot more with the lectures.
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I'll add that what you've got here is the core of a good idea going on, you just need to iron out the details.
A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread
New Updates:
1. Changed Mission 2 and Mission 3 maps to be better compatible with the objectives. Should hopefully eliminate bad spawns for objectives. Relinked objectives as they appeared to have come out of order at some point.
2. Reduced number of generators on Mission 4 in order to, again, eliminate bad spawning problems. Took it down from 5 to 3.
3. Tried to fix several animation "errors" in so much as the animations changed for no reason that I can figure out.
4. Added a new Mission 3 completion clue, in which Jackson further muddies the water on whether the film is actually genuine (he says it is, but is he worth trusting?). Adjusted Mission Start Clue accordingly.
5. Fixed a few dialogue issues, spelling errors (Blast Furnace's name).
New Problems:
1. Tried to push Mission 2 & 3 into 40-54 range to be consistent with the contact. THis would require replacing Blast Furnace with another boss. However, still using the Paragon Heroes group, that's the range for Cacophony & Holo Man. Holo Man is usually a pushover, but Cacophony forces some kind of level range error that I can't figure out how to resolve (local testing will not work, the MA interface will not allow me to test). Trying to switch to Holo Man does not resolve it. I don't think I have time to change this given my IRL schedule. I think we're stuck with some inconsistent level ranges, sorry Eva.
2. I've tried scripting an initial mission, the "rapport" mission to guide the player toward trusting Indigo. However, I realized that the mission would never really be able to do that believably. If I script that the PC has never met Indigo, then one mission won't establish that before we delve into the criminal theme. If I script that this mission is just "another mission for Indigo", then there's no reason for the mission to exist for the purposes of helping the PC trust the contact.
There is value in adding in the mission for presenting Mr. Inquiry earlier as an ally (allowing for him to recognize you later as the Dystheist), as well as possibly hinting at Jackson's presence earlier or that there are rumors of the film's existence filtering through the criminal element. I just don't know that I can sell Indigo's trustworthiness any more in a single mission. I am very lightly tempted to put a disclaimer somewhere that the arc assumes your familiarity with Indigo - but that really breaks immersion and is a case of telling, not showing.
3. At the moment, I am keeping Statesman as the final boss in his Pet version. I simply like the fact that he's there, States says that he's there to deal with the meteor, and indicates he's weakened from being in Praetoria (with text suggesting that the MA arc takes place immediately after freeing him in the Maria Jenkins arc).
I tried substituting the EB/AV version of Ms. Liberty in test and she's pretty hard (but not unbeatable on a claws/wp stalker with all 3 allies). However, given the length of the arc, I think the player might be getting battle fatigue by that point. I don't think the pacing would be helped by another huge, potentially grindy, and very difficult battle. I am open to arguments to the contrary. Every time I think about it I'm flip-flopping between the two.
Comments very welcome, particularly on Problem Points 2 & 3 (problem one is too low priority for me to deal with atm).
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Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
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Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Well, the arc is submitted, for better or worse.
Learned a lot on this arc, which is valuable. I still think there are some problems but I also believe that the arc is as good as I can make it given the time limit and my own RL schedule and opportunities to be in-game composing and testing it.
New Updates:
1. New Mission 1 Added: It's short and basically simple. There is level range breakage that happens. I know this is a pet peeve for some, but thems the breaks. I noticed that changing the level range in the mission parameters is like TEH GOGGLES and does nothing. Oh well. Again, As I said, this mission isn't much for establishing more trust in Indigo, so I went with foreshadowing some things that would happen later in the Arc.
2. Changed the final boss in Mission 5 (previously Mission 4) to EB/AV Ms. Liberty. It was a little silly to have Mr. Inquiry to be harder to beat than someone in the Freedom Phalanx, but EB/AV Statesman was just unfair for players to face as is. So, switched it to Ms. Lib and changed dialogue accordingly. I managed to solo her on a /kin corr with two allies surviving (and the allies spawned as Lt's too) - so that's so bad at all.
3. Messed around with text color in some of the clues if there was narration and dialogue occuring in them. Otherwise the text is basic, uncolored.
4. Added Tags: Non-canon, Challenging, Drama. Set to Final.
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Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
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Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Well, no win for me D=
Anyway, I realized that there were a few people who commented on TFM that I did not provide a QPQ review to. This was because the commenters didn't post a specific arc they wanted reviewed, and also because I got stupid busy with the constant revisions on this arc. So. From what I can tell, I owe reviews to:
1. Eva Destruction
2. Grinning Spade
Of course, those reviews are of little import now since the contest is over. However, I will still provide a review either on their Aeon Challenge arc (if any) or another arc of choosing. PM or comment here. Oh, also shout out I missed you on providing a review.
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
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Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
Oh, if you have time to look at the Union of the Mask, by all means go for it, but I never require a qpq. I just sort of play what I play and give what feedback I can.
Arc Name: Task Force Mutternacht
Arc ID: # 349522
Morality: Hero
Creator: @twelfth
Difficulty Level: 30-54 (with some level caps due to allies)
Enemies: Paragon Police, Longbow, small custom group, Paragon City Heroes
Synopsis: Indigo is looking for the best, most trustworthy heroes in the city to help her find evidence of a horrific crime. A trial that will test your resolve, your ethics, and your heart.
Length: 4 missions, small to medium maps. LOTS of reading.
------------
This is my entry into the Dr. Aeon contest. I actually relished doing this arc, because I really wanted to turn on some of the emotional issues that surround being a hero and the cruxes that they face when making decisive action in an ambiguous world.
Because this is listed as being designed for Dr. Aeon's challenge, I allowed the arc synopsis to "give away" what is going on in the arc. Because it's listed here part of the contest, it's no surprise that the arc is about doing "evil" for a good purpose. Players might think that's a spoiler or breaks immersion, but really - it's sort of assumed at this point.
This is presently in a "looking for feedback" status until 12/06/2009, at which point I will put it into "final" status and submit it on 12/07/2009. I need as many people to comment as possible.
Present concerns:
1. The reveal that happens between mish 3 and 4 wants to be much bigger. I need to get a lot of info across and I don't have much time to do it. I am thinking of putting the debriefing for mission 3 into a "Mission Complete" Clue and shifting part of the Mission 4 briefing into the mission 3 debriefing. (Mission Complete Clue <- Mission 3 Debrief <- Mission 4 Briefing). I'm concerned that if I do that, a player will miss the clue and lose track of the action. At this time, however, I am stuck with squeezing in explanations for the mission 4 objectives into clues, popups, and other awkward places in order to make the plot make sense. I need to gather opinions on which of these unfavorable choices is better.
2. There is a small custom group in the arc, they are mostly there because I needed something to break up the monotony of "bust up some cops" and "bust up some longbow" in the mobs. This is a lvl 30+ MA - at that point the only "heroic" groups available outside of customs (and AVs) is LB and PPD. They are pretty much just for highlights here and there. Are they necessary? They take up a lot of room and I'm uncertain how much they contribute to the tone of the story.
3. This arc sort of puts the characterization of the PC on a kind of autopilot. Again, because of what the challenge is supposed to be, I'm thinking that a player should be pretty lenient on this. However, I am VERY curious how much Idiot Ball the PC is playing with on this arc. Looking for logical faults, slips, blatant problems with internal consistency.
4. Usual things: Bosses too hard/easy? Maps buggy? Grammar issues? I appreciate any assistance and constructive criticism.
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge