Are PvP drops actually helping PvP?
By
Alpha_Zulu,
Posted on: 2009-11-26 21:20 in The Market and Inventions
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Except that's ridiculous. It's nothing like that. This is that "side" you're taking that I was referring to before. You seem to be saying that because other people got to the "top" already, they can prevent everyone else from getting there. That's patently false. Everyone else is completely enabled to do the same things that those people used to get to the "top" in terms of gear or familiarity.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Wonderful story except it isn't comparable and rather self justifying. If you want to put it in the current context, you would need a permanent tribes 2 server where because you played tribes you got to control the gear spawn points.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Well I agree but its a stretch to see how that applies to pvp. If PVP were football, you would have a situation where the patriots as a team would be playing ed from maui whose only sport is surfing for his gear he is wearing a pair of shorts and flip flops, and instead of just helmets and padding the patriots are wearing riot gear, have shields and all have been taking steroids.
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Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
Name one sport worth playing where investing time beforehand in practice, training and study of the game does NOT provide an advantage. The goal in PVP is a level playing field not "equal" players.
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Ed from Maui probably wouldn't end up in an NFL game against the Patriots. Now, he might have the luck to end up in a shirts game where a bunch of them play. Hopefully, the Patriots would have the sportsmanship to not all play on the same side in that game. Ed might get the chance to ask some of them how they got where they are, and if he really liked the thrill of playing with guys of their caliber, it might inspire him to really apply himself to playing football well.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Well I agree but its a stretch to see how that applies to pvp. If PVP were football, you would have a situation where the patriots as a team would be playing ed from maui whose only sport is surfing for his gear he is wearing a pair of shorts and flip flops, and instead of just helmets and padding the patriots are wearing riot gear, have shields and all have been taking steroids.
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Edit: Here's the thing. You keep drawing analogies with stateless, non-persistent games, like chess, football. In theory, you start every contest with a level playing field. (In reality, pro sports teams with better income from ticket sales and TV earnings do sometimes have advantages in terms of gear, better stadiums, better staff, and even better players. NY Yankees, anyone?) Persistent MMOs have different rules. They're about building up characters from scratch, and retaining that advancement from day to day.
You know that set of rules examples I gave earlier? I actually made an error in them. Everyone is set to the same level in zones, but they may not have the same number of powers or slots, because all the zones let you in at a level beneath where they set everyone, and the new exemplar rules expand the upper band even higher. You can get into Siren's at level 20 but a level 50 in zone will have powers as if they are level 35, and will have more slots in their powers. If you want to actually compete with them on level ground, you need to get your butt to at least level 30, and probably level 50. Gear is no different. It's an additional dimension of progress layered on top of the leveling system.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If chess were run like our pvp the grandmaster would be given an extra rook on the basis of his ranking and would always get white for his color. (if you dont play chess, white moves first)|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Welcome to every game in existence. Should someone who's only played chess a few times expect to win against a grand master? Even in FPS games where there is zero equipment advantage, additional advantages exist for people who have skill and familiarity advantages with a game.
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The rest of your post was just one more attempt to try and confuse playing skill with having better gear. If you have better skill it is its own reward. If you truly have superior skill and equal gear you are going to win and you hardly need the better gear to win.
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You keep making those kinds of gear analogies, and they don't apply any more than the 1st time you made them. If the grandmaster can get an extra rook, so can you. Even if achieving the title of "grandmaster" is a requisite to gaining the extra rook, the existing grandmaster can't keep you from attaining grandmaster on your own, and when you get there, you get a rook too.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
If chess were run like our pvp the grandmaster would be given an extra rook on the basis of his ranking and would always get white for his color. (if you dont play chess, white moves first)
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| The rest of your post was just one more attempt to try and confuse playing skill with having better gear. If you have better skill it is its own reward. If you truly have superior skill and equal gear you are going to win and you hardly need the better gear to win. |
Why is gaining skill through effort and perseverance OK, but gaining equipment not OK? Why is it not OK in an environment where everyone can do it, and gear is part of the larger progress game, along with levels, slots, power picks, etc? You keep throwing out these outrageous analogies with things where none of that applies. No one ever sees "L50 Linebacker LFT".
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Once again if that football game were our pvp, ed would be going out to get groceries when the patriots would suddenly bear down on him|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Ed from Maui probably wouldn't end up in an NFL game against the Patriots. Now, he might have the luck to end up in a shirts game where a bunch of them play. Hopefully, the Patriots would have the sportsmanship to not all play on the same side in that game. Ed might get the chance to ask some of them how they got where they are, and if he really liked the thrill of playing with guys of their caliber, it might inspire him to really apply himself to playing football well.
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| Edit: Here's the thing. You keep drawing analogies with stateless, non-persistent games, like chess, football. In theory, you start every contest with a level playing field. (In reality, pro sports teams with better income from ticket sales and TV earnings do sometimes have advantages in terms of gear, better stadiums, better staff, and even better players. NY Yankees, anyone?) Persistent MMOs have different rules. They're about building up characters from scratch, and retaining that advancement from day to day. |
You can say MMOs have different rules all you want but the bottom line is no one wants to play poker with a crooked dealer a stacked deck and against someone with an unlimited credit. The fact that there are PvP IOs worth billions of inf that can drop in pvp but people still stay away in droves is great confirmation of this.
Then again I suppose its just an unreasonable sense of etitlement that people have that pvp should be fair and fun.
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If you're a badge hunter in a PvP zone then yes. I agree. If you don't want that to happen, you shouldn't shop at the store on the 30-yard line. If you really want to buy the stuff you can only get at that store, then ask the owner to move the store off the field or learn to bob and weave like a pro.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Once again if that football game were our pvp, ed would be going out to get groceries when the patriots would suddenly bear down on him
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| To take your examples in particular the Yankees, major league baseball realized that having horribly imbalanced teams with completely unequal access to resources was bad for the sport and implemented revenue sharing to level the playing field. |
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| Another good example is golf, where the distance a golf ball can travel from a given hit is standardized and controlled in the professional leagues. |
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| You can say MMOs have different rules all you want but the bottom line is no one wants to play poker with a crooked dealer a stacked deck and against someone with an unlimited credit. |
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| The fact that there are PvP IOs worth billions of inf that can drop in pvp but people still stay away in droves is great confirmation of this. |
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| Then again I suppose its just an unreasonable sense of etitlement that people have that pvp should be fair and fun. |
Edit: I think we've been dancing around the same points for long enough that we're not making any headway. I think having loot be part of an MMO's PvP is fine, so long as everyone has equal potential to obtain them. With that said, I'll bow out of this debate.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Peterpeter has made the good point in the past that loot should reward participation more than outright winning. Having a small chance to get a PVP IO drop on a defeat (with timers etc to reduce farming) would be an example of this subtle change.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Edit: I think we've been dancing around the same points for long enough that we're not making any headway. I think having loot be part of an MMO's PvP is fine, so long as everyone has equal potential to obtain them. With that said, I'll bow out of this debate.
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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Let them eat cake. I know you are aware of this but the points need to be made. For villains if you want your accolades you have to go into pvp zones. Shivans and warburg nukes are what often save otherwise failed tfs. Even if you can bob and weave like a pro its not going to do you much good when the Jets defensive line is charging you and its just you.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If you're a badge hunter in a PvP zone then yes. I agree. If you don't want that to happen, you shouldn't shop at the store on the 30-yard line. If you really want to buy the stuff you can only get at that store, then ask the owner to move the store off the field or learn to bob and weave like a pro.
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| Indeed. Did you know we have a revenue sharing system here? It's called... the market! |
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| And in CoH, a non-purple IO only ever gives you a max of 42.8% enhancement to damage, endurance or recharge. (A purple always gives a max of 53%.) |
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| No, it's not. It might be, but there a ton of other factors involved, like whether PvP here is enjoyable, whether there are enough people playing, or what the prevailing views on the very nature of PvP are among the larger player base. The counter evidence to your statement is that more people were playing PvP before I13's changes. |
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No, it's an unreasonable sense of entitlement for someone to declare that they don't want to do what others did to reach their levels of performance, even when they can. The system is fair in the sense that everyone has the same access, and what's fun is always subjective. Edit: I think we've been dancing around the same points for long enough that we're not making any headway. I think having loot be part of an MMO's PvP is fine, so long as everyone has equal potential to obtain them. With that said, I'll bow out of this debate. |
Wow I just thought the game was supposed to be fun for everyone.
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Yes. That is what I am arguing for. That is what we have. That is how MMOs work.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Let me lay out the upshot of that and ubers position. What you are arguing for is allowing additional advantages to people who already have a skill and familiarity advantage with the game.
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| It should come as no surprise to anyone who is thinking about how any game is played or even basic human psychology that people stayed away in droves. |
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| I thought I had a dim view of the community before, but to have people seriously argue that they have a right to wail on people just because they have "Paid their dues". Well that is really just ugly. |
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| That isnt a game its just sick. Yes you can make the rules for a game however you like just don't be shocked when people don't play. |
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| Edit: and if you want to take the real life work as a mini game most sports place strict limits on the equipment that can be used and what athletes can do to enhance performance. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
OK, I lied, I want to respond to two sub-points.
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In major league baseball or any major professional sport, revenue streams work nothing like how they do for players in this game (or any game I know of). They make money based on ticket sales, game viewership and advertising/marketing deals. Here, we make money by ... playing the game. The revenue sharing I spoke of is that if player A has the cash to buy a purple or whatever from player B, then player B now has most of the money they need to buy a purple, or probably a whole bunch of other stuff.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You know we have a market or two in the real world, somehow that didn't stop major league baseball from needing a revenue sharing system.
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I mean, seriously, I know I probably overuse analogies myself, but some of these you're making are really tenuous.
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| The point being that the largest rewards in the game are still not enough to get people into pvp. Think about that, there a pvp drops that are an order of magnitude bigger than any other loot in the game and people who will spend hours farming demons or laying waste to freaks to get loot just go, nahhhh. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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First the reason for revenue sharing was so that there would be balance in the sport and that it didn't become a permanent blowout for whatever team had the most profitable market. The people who run major league baseball read the tea leaves and realized baseball would likely go away if they didn't do something. Eerily familiar isn't that ? | In major league baseball or any major professional sport, revenue streams work nothing like how they do for players in this game (or any game I know of). They make money based on ticket sales, game viewership and advertising/marketing deals. Here, we make money by ... playing the game. The revenue sharing I spoke of is that if player A has the cash to buy a purple or whatever from player B, then player B now has most of the money they need to buy a purple, or probably a whole bunch of other stuff. |
Second the purple drop rate for an average player is supposed to be one every six weeks or so (bit of trivia off the old boards). To put 2 sets of five in would take how long by just having them drop ?
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| PvPOs are only orders of magnitude better in sale price, . |
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lol that's sig worthy
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Originally Posted by black_barrier
back in i12 there used to be a really bad claws/regen (surprise?) that i would kill every single morning over and over as he tried to farm pillboxes. it was sort of like a morning routine; wake up, log in fire/cold, brush teeth, make him get emo and log, then head to school... he'd send me the most awesome hate tells ever.
im starting to think that was castle. :-( |
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Pretty much. If the opposing side can keep you out of hide, you're pretty much useless. Hence why Acid Arrow from TAs is the anti stalker power. Ticks for toxic damage for like 20 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Werner
The Stalker stealth cap is MUCH higher than others, 1143 feet in PvP at level 50 vs. 852 for VEATs and 572 for all others. Being invisible is CENTRAL to how a Stalker plays (or so I hear - I don't have one).
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Originally Posted by eryq2
I agree with Another Fan and disagree(respectfully) with Conflict here. Without a serious inf. build, you have no chance to win in PvP. Some may disagree, but i have never seen a win come from a SO build vs. a purp or pvp'd build.
I have a kat/regen with every power slotted with anything from LotG, Kin Com, Oblits, ToD, to 4 sets of Numinas. Several 7.5% rech instead of purples for xtra rech. and i have yet to win vs. 2 diff brutes and 2 diff kat/regen scrappers. That is, when i'm even able to get a 1 vs. 1 and not have 3 stalkers just sitting in a zone waiting to AS someone. There's some real skill there. Which brings me to another question. Why is Invisible on blue not as good as Hide for stalkers? Every time i'm invisi, i am always hit by someone. lol. Is there something that can be used to see stalkers, or is theirs just better than ours? |
Dying on a regen scrapper is pretty hard. Do you have phase? If not, get it.
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Quick question, how do you go from equal access to equipment and a balanced contest to everyone wins and gold stars for every one ? |
Originally Posted by Werner
Then I'm really just ugly in your mind, because it sounds like we're down to a fundamental difference now. I'm not a fan of "Everyone's a winner! Gold stars for everyone!" I think that the player that spent hundreds of hours practicing their PvP skills should have an advantage over the one who just wandered casually into the zone. I think that the player that spent hundreds of hours outfitting their character should have an advantage over one who refuses to put in that kind of effort. If equipment is your main objection, then what I'm hearing from the people who appear to be most experienced at PvP 2.0 is that equipment is not nearly the advantage that skill and experience are except in otherwise very equal button-mashing contests like fight clubbing. |
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| I don't care if people with your preferences don't play. Plenty of people actually LIKE the MMO model of PvP. So if they play, and the people that don't like it don't play or play some other game, everyone will be happy. I'm not SHOCKED that you don't like the MMO model of PvP. Lots of people don't. But honestly, it's the MMO model. Just as I shouldn't be shocked that you don't like it, you shouldn't be shocked that others do, and very much consider it a game, even a FAIR game. |
Even with the old pvp this would likely be true.
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| Yes, and I can't bring special pieces with special powers to a game of chess just because I can afford them. I hear what you're saying. But if I COULD bring those special, uber-expensive chess pieces to a game, that would be the MMO model - all of the mini-games tied together. Sports is a first person shooter. Again, perhaps you would prefer first person shooters. That's fine. Just please don't request that MMOs be turned into first person shooters just because you like those better. |
Am I making a request ? Well this started with the observation that most people aren't enjoying pvp enough to participate in it and some of the reasons why.
As I said earlier the attitude that says yes "I have to have my additional advantages over and above skill and practice and I should be able to beat the other guy into ground with them till he is completely disgusted" is the surest sign that more along the lines of homogenization and DR is coming. With DR the devs seem to be saying you can have your advantages but we are going to do our best to make certain they don't matter.
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Except it isn't.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Once again if that football game were our pvp, ed would be going out to get groceries when the patriots would suddenly bear down on him
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The only places in CoX where PVP occurs, both parties have consented by their actions. Entering a PvP zone activates your PvP flag, same as entering an arena.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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PVP zones are the only places you can get certain pve tools and badges. If you want Marshall or Born in Battle you have to go to them. If you are a badger you not only have to go there but you have to spend much time there and find some way to farm rep.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Except it isn't.
The only places in CoX where PVP occurs, both parties have consented by their actions. Entering a PvP zone activates your PvP flag, same as entering an arena. |
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Eat cake? No, if they can't accomplish those simple tasks let them starve. Jets defensive line? What game are you playing?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Let them eat cake. I know you are aware of this but the points need to be made. For villains if you want your accolades you have to go into pvp zones. Shivans and warburg nukes are what often save otherwise failed tfs. Even if you can bob and weave like a pro its not going to do you much good when the Jets defensive line is charging you and its just you.
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The badges required for villain accolades are exploration badges, easily obtainable by anyone regardless of build. The only way to fail is through sheer stupidity. For instance, walking into the zone and announcing your intentions in broadcast along with a request to not be attacked. Then rushing straight into a crowd of enemy. As idiotic as that sounds, I see people do it every day.
For shivans and nukes, organized opposition in bloody bay or warburg is non-existent.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
PVP zones are the only places you can get certain pve tools and badges. If you want Marshall or Born in Battle you have to go to them. If you are a badger you not only have to go there but you have to spend much time there and find some way to farm rep.
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Those (temp powers etc) are the PVP mini-games. You consent to PvP to participate in them.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
PVP zones are the only places you can get certain pve tools and badges. If you want Marshall or Born in Battle you have to go to them. If you are a badger you not only have to go there but you have to spend much time there and find some way to farm rep.
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Want the accolades with minimal risk, then hit the zones at a queit time.
As for the rep comment... You want rep you have to partake in PvP, it is awarded for player defeats, you really cant get much more definitive PvP than can you ?
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Yeah, there are no badges required for in-game advancement that directly require you to PvP (Born in Battle required the Lanista badge before I16 but gladiator matches are more like Pokemon than PvP). Every PvP-related badge required for an accolade can be done without ever PvPing.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I12 there was even on low volume servers. All the conditions to create the problem with the exception of the population needed are still there.|
Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
Eat cake?
For shivans and nukes, organized opposition in bloody bay or warburg is non-existent. |
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| None of the time or rep badges are required for anything. A badge represents having done something. If you aren't interested in doing what the badge signifies, no cake for you. |
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Originally Posted by macskull
The concept of DR isn't a bad one (it's not one I agree with, but I can understand why it was implemented), it's how it works with the rest of the game that causes problems. The PvP base resistance that's granted to all ATs (except Tanks and MMs) compounds the problem - between the base resist and my epic/patron shield, I'm very near (if not already at) the DR hard-cap for resistance, and external buffs like Thermal or Sonic shields will add almost nothing to my stats. DR and the change to cage powers have made Sonic a completely worthless set. However, melee ATs (which already have good defense or resistance, tons of hit points, and sometimes even multiple self-heals) aren't hit nearly as hard by DR. I can understand DR if you apply it to trying to stop a tank-mage Blaster (say, for example, a Blaster running double-stacked Sonic shields with an Emp backing him up), but a smart opposing team will be going after that Emp while the rest of the teammates are providing disruption so that Blaster is less effective against getting a lock and quick kill on a target.
What really needs to be removed is travel suppression and heal decay, and I wouldn't be too opposed to dropping the base resistances either. The problem with the changes as a whole is they took balance from team encounters in favor of balance for 1v1 encounters, and everything's about damage now. Under the old rules there were some builds that didn't win because of damage output, but because of attrition - they wore their opponent down over a 10-minute match. With the new rules, everything's focused on damage and there are very few real attrition builds that are still viable. In a 1v1 situation under the old rules, the rock/paper/scissors metaphor applied, unless the participants were using similar builds, and in that case the better build would win assuming equal skill. Under the new rules, none of that has changed, but everything's been slowed down and essentially having skill lopped off at the top instead of being boosted from the bottom means being "good" doesn't mean nearly as much as it did before. Thing is, rewards shouldn't be what brings a player in. The system should be reward enough by merit of having fun while doing it. Hell, there were no PvP rewards from I4 until I12, and yet PvP garnered a respectable population. Fact of the matter is most MMO players aren't in it for the PvP. They don't want to PvP, they despise having PvP forced on them, for whatever reason. Rewards aren't going to illicit anything more than a short-lived curiosity from most people, and when they find they can't just magically waltz into a PvP environment and win like they do in PvE, they'll get frustrated and leave. A PvEer is very unlikely to just wake up one morning and decide they want to PvP - more often than not a PvEer becomes a PvPer because they go into a PvP environment and say "hey, that was fun," or they've got friends who try to get them into it, and they all have fun together, regardless of the reward. |
What he said + im not fond of the 2 sec hold/stun mezz timers on a support toon its pretty lame to delay rather than hold n escaping foe lol
To the OP the drops havent effected the population much in my opinion
To the OP:
No, PvP IO's have not affected the state of PvP.
Now, if they were to implement a system of PvP drops like my suggestion, then maybe PvP IOs would encourage more PvP. (shameless plug)
The real reason PvP IOs have not improved PvP is that currently, the reward rate for PvP IOs is not visible enough for the player to actually notice. Add onto that the current status of PvP 2.0, with the unattractiveness and steep learning curve, and PvP just isn't very attractive at all for anybody - even PvPers.
You see, while the Tribes 2 game was new, its fundamental gameplay was the same as its predecessor. As such, I was very familiar with the combat. The fellow I was fighting was clearly new to it with this game. He wasn't very mobile, and he didn't have a sense of how to time his attacks to maximize his odds of hitting me. But he kept coming back, over and over, never complaining, and I never once mocked him when defeating him.
After a while, he asked me how I was able to hit him so consistently. It was asked in a calm "tone of text". I explained to him that I had prior experience from the previous game. He was surprised by this, but then asked what he might do to improve his success. I gave him pointers, staying with him in an out-of-the-way area and showing him examples of what I was doing. He thanked me, and went on his way.
I understand that players who do what both that guy and I did are rare. A lot of people losing like that will pitch a fit, call the winner names, and maybe storm out of the game or server. Some winners don't help any, making fun of players who can't match their skills, or not providing any advice for a newbie. Neither is the right way to play, IMO.
Wonderful story except it isn't comparable and rather self justifying. If you want to put it in the current context, you would need a permanent tribes 2 server where because you played tribes you got to control the gear spawn points.