Ah right, haha my bad. Well, a firekin corr can still only reach that damage after 38 
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anywho, going off a hypothetical here, and probably inacurate maths...
the fabled Fire/elec build i mentioned earlier that can break 300 dps, did about 312 dps.
with a mod of say, 1.4 for range, 1.25 for melee: it could easily shoot out 350+
think 100 more dps than the top scrapper build should close the gap?
Honestly? I've no idea.
For what its worth, I'm not sure how much damage a blaster would have to do for me to invite one over a corruptor to my team, but it would have to be pretty broken.
No amount of damage a blaster brings is going to make them a force multiplier. Force multipliers rule this game.
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then why are there so many brutes? |
Originally Posted by Silas
Honestly? I've no idea.
For what its worth, I'm not sure how much damage a blaster would have to do for me to invite one over a corruptor to my team, but it would have to be pretty broken. No amount of damage a blaster brings is going to make them a force multiplier. Force multipliers rule this game. |
they *are* a force, not a multiplyer
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The sheer potency of those multipliers is under-estimated by the player-base (myself included for the first year and a half of playing the game), and the mechanics are quite alien compared to any other game I've played.|
Originally Posted by Player99
then why are there so many brutes?
they *are* a force, not a multiplyer |
For vills, Brutes are popular because they're the only obvious "tough melee fighter" option, and the overwhelming popularity of tanks and scrappers blueside displays the typical player-preference for those types of characters.
Brutes are pretty-much required in redside teams, where they usually act as the tanks (even though I believe the design of redside intended MMs to be the tanks?), which is great since finding redside teams can be a lot harder than blueside.
Brutes are also so popular because they can out-damage scrappers and have near-tank levels of protection. Most Brutes can tank, scrap or solo just about any of the PvE content without any real problems or requiring IO set tricks.
They're arguably the easiest AT to play through to 50 and they never stop being tough or striking hard.
I'm curious to see just how many people will bother with Scrappers and Tanks blueside, once Brutes can exist there.
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Are you comparing AoE or ST damage? That seems to be blurred in this discussion, and it's incredibly relevant.|
Originally Posted by Player99
however, this still falls under what I said earlier: other ATs can do near blaster level damage, but with disproportionate defenses. The problem is that while blasters do like, 1.2 x as much damage as a (scrapper/brute/potato), those at's are 2.5x as tough at the least.
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While I've seen some impressive AoE damage from spines scrappers or fire/kin controllers, it usually feels like the mob-massacring AoE damage comes from the Blasters (whether I'm the one playing a Blaster or not).
While it seems like Blasters have fallen behind in terms of ST damage vs personal survivability, their AoE damage seems to be keeping them safely at the top of a team's DPS output.
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thats kinda build dependant...|
Originally Posted by Harkness
Are you comparing AoE or ST damage? That seems to be blurred in this discussion, and it's incredibly relevant.
While I've seen some impressive AoE damage from spines scrappers or fire/kin controllers, it usually feels like the mob-massacring AoE damage comes from the Blasters (whether I'm the one playing a Blaster or not). While it seems like Blasters have fallen behind in terms of ST damage vs personal survivability, their AoE damage seems to be keeping them safely at the top of a team's DPS output. |
sure, Fire and Rad do good AoE, but what about Elec, Psi or Sonic?
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Because Scrappers are just that much cooler.
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Originally Posted by Harkness
I'm curious to see just how many people will bother with Scrappers and Tanks blueside, once Brutes can exist there.
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Yes; as I understand it, it was initially thought that MMs would mainly tank by using their minions to draw aggro and sacrificing them. Instead, MMs acted rather protective of their minions, and Brutes stepped into the tank role.
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Originally Posted by Harkness
(even though I believe the design of redside intended MMs to be the tanks?)
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Well, to be fair, Brutes had adequate tanking tools from day 1, to the point that you have to assume that they were intended to be at least backup tanks villain side. The only other conclusion I can reach looking at an AT with high health, solid defenses, an AoE taunt in its primary, a taunt aura in most of its secondaries, and a ST taunt in every attack. . . well, the only conclusion I can reach other than that this AT is intended to fulfill at least *SOME* tanking rolls is personally insuliting to the developers.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Yes; as I understand it, it was initially thought that MMs would mainly tank by using their minions to draw aggro and sacrificing them. Instead, MMs acted rather protective of their minions, and Brutes stepped into the tank role.
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TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
brutes were meant t be able to tank, yes, but MMs do it better in that they have meatshields that they can buff and kept healed, allowing other ATs to do their thing...aka tank for the team
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Just a nitpick... a fire mage, a frost mage, an arcane mage and a frostfire bolt mage will all play in vastly different ways. They are just as different as the different power sets within an AT here.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
This. One of the things that has kept me with CoH's all these years is the fact that even though sets are within the same AT they can have a totally differant feel, unlike say, our 12 million subscribed competitor where a mage is /allways/ a mage.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Blasters dont do enough damage in my opinion to justify the squishieness they get. The lie that range is a blasters defense will just end up getting you killed since everything can out range you even with boost range.
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Yes indeed. Range can be your defense but not until you invest in IO sets to make it so While I love my blasters its very very hard to overlook the flaws in the AT. They are not the damage kings, these days they aren't even the aoe damage kings, its as if you had a scrapper that had no shields and only fought using polearms.
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Scrappers might be hurt by Brute competition, but Tankers never will. |
Originally Posted by Harkness
I'm curious to see just how many people will bother with Scrappers and Tanks blueside, once Brutes can exist there.
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Brutes are good Tanks for what's available redside, but a Brute is nowhere near as tough as Tanker, either out of the box or fully IOd. The only time Brutes come out ahead in that comparison is either on damage alone (in which aspect Tankers don't even compete with them anyway) or when comparing an IOd Brute to an SOd Tanker - and in several cases the SO Tanker would still come out ahead.
Brutes are nice, but they are not Tankers. They're not even close.
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Maybe my bias is showing but I really don't feel that way. MM or Dom teams with enough members can effectively lock down a spawn. Corrs act as a force multiplier and a Stalker here and there can spike the hard targets everything else missed.
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Originally Posted by Harkness
Brutes are pretty-much required in redside teams...
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Just as a side note. On the redside the Corrupter, Dom, and possibly the Brute can lay down some very nice AOE damage depending on build. So it seems to me that redside has many AOE options. Even the MMs can bring some AOE to the table. On the blue side however, you have the defender who by himself will have pretty weak AOE damage with any primary short of a Kin post lvl 32. The PBs and Warshades do have some decent AOEs but their damage is also low and you need to have a lvl 50 to unlock them. Scrappers may have 1 or 2 high damage AOEs but these are usually limited to an 8-10 foot radius and 10 targets max. So the Blaster seems to be the only one in most circumstances that can really bring some nasty high, large radius, 10-16 targets per attack damage. Now some of the roles may change post lvl 38 but until then the blaster is truly the bane of minions everywhere.
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I slightly disagree with this. First off with the exception of Foot Stomp and Tremor Brute AoEs have the same radius as Scrapper AoEs. A Brute with a full rage bar will do more damage but at lower rage levels the Scrapper will do more so I'd consider them pretty equal. Similarly while Corruptors do more damage than Defenders it's only about 15% more outside of Scourge and like Corruptors some Defenders can also use their other powerset to boost the damage.|
Originally Posted by moifus1
Just as a side note. On the redside the Corrupter, Dom, and possibly the Brute can lay down some very nice AOE damage depending on build. So it seems to me that redside has many AOE options. Even the MMs can bring some AOE to the table. On the blue side however, you have the defender who by himself will have pretty weak AOE damage with any primary short of a Kin post lvl 32. The PBs and Warshades do have some decent AOEs but their damage is also low and you need to have a lvl 50 to unlock them. Scrappers may have 1 or 2 high damage AOEs but these are usually limited to an 8-10 foot radius and 10 targets max. So the Blaster seems to be the only one in most circumstances that can really bring some nasty high, large radius, 10-16 targets per attack damage. Now some of the roles may change post lvl 38 but until then the blaster is truly the bane of minions everywhere.
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I'd also disagree that only Kin Defenders do good damage. Several other primaries have strong resistance debuffs that the defender can use to boost his damage. Additionally even without using the various damage boosts the more AoE focused secondaries deal decent damage (Assault Rifle and Archery in particular)
FSC also has a slightly larger radius than most PBAoEs, (10 vs 8), but don't underestimate how much radius matters in dealing AoE damage.
I do agree that Kin Defenders aren't the only defenders with decent damage. While I generally think Defender damage as a whole is pretty anemic, relative to other Defender Primaries or pre-APP controllers there are several sets that offer Defenders decent damage.
Sonic Blast is one, with the -res stacking with the obscene Defender debuff mod, AR and Archery are pretty decent with Fistful/RoA/Flamethrower/Full Auto. TA also offers pretty high damage with OSA, even if its not an every-spawn power. I'm not sure how much worse the damage is on Defender Trip Mine, but if you can leverage it its pretty high damage for Corrs so I'm it does at least reasonable damage for Defs.
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Wait, wut?|
Originally Posted by Harkness
Brutes are pretty-much required in redside teams, where they usually act as the tanks
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Redside more than blueside doesn't need any kind of tanking at all. There's so many overlapping buffs and synergistic power sets mottled throughout the Rogue Isles that there's never a situation where you need a Brute. It's nice to have them and they respond quite well to buffing, but a necessity? Hell no. In the best of teams, they just take up a spot where another AT could have been.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
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Most of my redside squishies disagree with you. Someone else doing some kind of tanking is good for them.
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Originally Posted by Suichiro
Redside more than blueside doesn't need any kind of tanking at all.
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What squishies are you speaking of? Masterminds have low HP, but with bodyguard (defensive/follow) they get +75% resistance from part damage sharing. Stalkers have good armors/aggro avoidance tools. Doms can stop groups from dealing damage. Soldiers/Widows can withstand about as much trouble as brutes. So you're talking corruptors? Storm corrs can out-tank some brutes. /Rad and /Dark can make enemies so weak everyone else is a tank in comparison. /Traps...same, with a mighty big bubble to helps anywise. /Cold once it gets going has a lot of things the soften the blows, making it very survivable. This only leaves /pain, /thermal, and /kin. /Kin, once it's high enough, kills stuff so fast it's a blaster problem, not a squishy support problem. This leaves /Thermal and /Pain-and every single primary barring fire will have some sort of mitigation tools to help those survive.|
Originally Posted by Harkness
Most of my redside squishies disagree with you. Someone else doing some kind of tanking is good for them.
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Sorry, but if you have any mix of masterminds, Arachnos, dominators, or other corruptors doing their job to their full potential, there is no way that you need a brute. (If you're playing with only stalkers, you may indeed have a problem, being the one person on the team without the 'attack somebody else!' button that placate is.)
Red teams are have just way too many capabilities to actually need the squishy healer/protector and tough tanker dynamic. If you need this dynamic, you might have to re-examine the team tactics. Look well enough, and you'll find somebody isn't using all of their tools, usually from a misunderstanding of a team role.
*edit* And bringing this back to the topic, corruptors may start a fight with support tools, and should use those well...buffing teammembers before fights, making sure enemies are weakened early on, but as the fight is closing, they are the villain blasters. If a mob is damaged and the corruptor doesn't throw in some scourging attacks, they are making their team waste energy. It may be fine for a corr to hang back a bit, let other start fights, but with their inherent corruptors are made to finish fights.
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I don't know if this speaks to bad luck, or the state of redside on Virtue, but I find the average PuG to need a Brute. Few MMs seem to want to take the aggro, and there aren't many PuGs that don't start splintering into mismanaged pulls.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
What squishies are you speaking of?
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I love well-played 8-man Defender or Corrupter teams. I think they're the strongest all-one-AT teams.
But, in my experience, the typical PuG redside handles a lack of a Brute worse than a blueside PuG trying to make do without a Tank.
Granted, my own softcapped and careful characters don't tend to be the ones dying, but it's only fun to be "last man standing" the first couple of times, not constantly.
I don't believe teams need a Brute (or a Tank, if you're talking blueside or co-op), but for most of the redside PuGs I've played in, they did.
Which (to go back to my original point) is part of their popularity.
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Nah, Corruptor Trip Mine does Blaster level damage but the Defender version doesn't. Bascially the Corruptor and Blaster versions use the same pseudo-pet but Defenders get their own version with 65% of the damage.|
Originally Posted by Silas
I'm not sure how much worse the damage is on Defender Trip Mine, but if you can leverage it its pretty high damage for Corrs so I'm it does at least reasonable damage for Defs.
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It's still ok damage for a Defender but it's not the same as the Blaster/Corruptor version.
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So nah...but you agree with me?|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Nah, Corruptor Trip Mine does Blaster level damage but the Defender version doesn't. Bascially the Corruptor and Blaster versions use the same pseudo-pet but Defenders get their own version with 65% of the damage.
It's still ok damage for a Defender but it's not the same as the Blaster/Corruptor version. |
Okay, cool.
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The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
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i was referring to fire/kin cors, but whatever
anywho, the kheldian squiddies have a technical Ranged damage mod of like, 1.4 or such, and they doen go around 1-shotting everything. Granted, a blaster has more attacks...