Human Form Warshade build critique

See thats the thing, I might not like you, I might find your opinions wrong and your perception skewed, but I know you DO know what your doing

I might hate sushi, and the chef who makes it and the resteraunt the sushi is served in, but I do not doubt the competance of the chef.

I simply wish he would use his skills on something "I" view as more worthwhile.

For the record....

Sushi sucks.

I'm referring to the food, not nova form.



"Alien"

*EDIT*
As a side note, we do have a knack for making a thread go from 19 views to over 150 in just a short amount of time, don't we? (lol)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades The way you play changes your IO slotting..

Sadly, conflict breeds interest...

Wow, I feel like I just ignited a political debate. I have learned a great deal about Warshades from this thread as in my 4 years experience, never paid any attention to Khelds.

Do Set Bonuses carry over to the other Forms?

I actually tossed 2 builds back and forth before settling on the Human Former. This is what I had come up with for a Tri-Former, how's it look?

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All set bonuses do carry over to forms. Some procs do not and some do, it's......complicated...

Looking over the build now.

your build isn't bad but I could spend alot of time explaining what i would change so instead I'm posting a build a friend asked me to do for her, it's also not what I would personaly do but she didn't like tanking much so I used less slots on dwarf than normal.

if you have any questions about why I did something feel free to ask as that will get you what you need to know.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

test ws: Level 50 Science Warshade
Primary Power Set: Umbral Blast
Secondary Power Set: Umbral Aura
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Shadow Bolt

• (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure

• (A) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
• (46) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance

• (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure

• (A) Resist Damage IO

• (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
• (11) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range
• (11) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance
• (13) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)

• (A) Run Speed IO

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
• (45) Recharge Reduction IO
• (46) Recharge Reduction IO

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed

• (A) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
• (21) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (23) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (23) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed

• (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
• (39) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (40) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
• (40) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
• (40) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance

• (A) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
• (25) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge
• (25) Aegis - Resistance

• (A) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
• (46) Regenerative Tissue - +Regeneration

• (A) Endurance Modification IO

• (A) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod
• (27) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge
• (27) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Endurance
• (31) Efficacy Adaptor - Accuracy/Recharge
• (33) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge

• (A) Stupefy - Accuracy/Recharge
• (29) Stupefy - Accuracy/Stun/Recharge
• (29) Stupefy - Accuracy/Endurance
• (31) Stupefy - Endurance/Stun
• (31) Stupefy - Stun/Range

• (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
• (37) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (37) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
• (39) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range
• (39) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)

• (A) Soulbound Allegiance - Chance for Build Up
• (33) Soulbound Allegiance - Damage/Recharge
• (33) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Recharge
• (34) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage
• (34) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (34) Expedient Reinforcement - Endurance/Damage/Recharge

• (A) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
• (36) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (36) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (36) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
• (37) Obliteration - Damage

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed

• (A) Efficacy Adaptor - Accuracy/Recharge
• (42) Performance Shifter - Accuracy/Recharge
• (42) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge
• (42) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Recharge
• (43) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Recharge

• (A) Healing IO

• (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance

• (A) Stupefy - Accuracy/Stun/Recharge

• (A) Empty

• (A) Celerity - +Stealth

• (A) Empty

• (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance

• (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range

• (A) Decimation - Accuracy/Damage
• (3) Decimation - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (7) Decimation - Damage/Recharge
• (17) Decimation - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
• (17) Decimation - Chance of Build Up

• (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
• (3) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (7) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (15) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
• (19) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge

• (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
• (5) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (5) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
• (15) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
• (19) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range
• (43) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)

• (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
• (9) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (9) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
• (13) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range
• (21) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
• (50) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)

• (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure

• (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure

• (A) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
• (43) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (45) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (45) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge

• (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
• (48) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (48) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
• (48) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
• (50) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge
• (50) Numina's Convalescence - Heal

• (A) Winter's Gift - Slow Resistance (20%)

• (A) Perfect Zinger - Accuracy/Recharge

• 17.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
• 17.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
• 17.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
• 17.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
• 17.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
• 17.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
• 17.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
• 17.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
• 4.69% Defense(Fire)
• 4.69% Defense(Cold)
• 4.06% Defense(Energy)
• 4.06% Defense(Negative)
• 4.38% Defense(Ranged)
• 4.69% Defense(AoE)
• 2.25% Max End
• 58.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 3% Enhancement(Stun)
• 52% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 4% FlySpeed
• 76.3 HP (7.12%) HitPoints
• 4% JumpHeight
• 4% JumpSpeed
• Knockback (Mag -8)
• Knockup (Mag -8)
• MezResist(Confused) 2.5%
• MezResist(Held) 5.8%
• MezResist(Immobilize) 11.9%
• MezResist(Sleep) 2.5%
• MezResist(Stun) 9.1%
• MezResist(Terrorized) 2.5%
• 13.5% (0.23 End/sec) Recovery
• 38% (1.7 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 20% ResEffect(FlySpeed)
• 20% ResEffect(RechargeTime)
• 20% ResEffect(RunSpeed)
• 4.73% Resistance(Fire)
• 4.73% Resistance(Cold)
• 6.25% Resistance(Toxic)
• 3% Resistance(Psionic)
• 9% RunSpeed

• Knockback Protection (Mag -4)

• 3% Resistance(Psionic)

• 3.13% Defense(Ranged), 1.56% Defense(Energy), 1.56% Defense(Negative)
• 3.13% Defense(AoE), 1.56% Defense(Fire), 1.56% Defense(Cold)
• Knockback Protection (Mag -4)

• 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

• MezResist(Stun) 2.2%
• 3% DamageBuff(All)
• 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)

• 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

• MezResist(Immobilize) 3.3%
• 16.1 HP (1.5%) HitPoints
• 3% DamageBuff(All)
• MezResist(Held) 3.3%

• 5% RunSpeed
• 3.13% Defense(Fire,Cold), 1.56% Defense(AoE)

• 12 HP (1.12%) HitPoints
• 1.5% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery
• 10% (0.45 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 2.5% DamageBuff(All)

• 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery
• 20.1 HP (1.87%) HitPoints
• 3% Enhancement(Stun)
• 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

• 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery
• 1.58% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
• 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

• 16% (0.72 HP/sec) Regeneration

• Status Resistance 2.5%
• 3% DamageBuff(All)
• 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

• MezResist(Stun) 2.2%
• 3% DamageBuff(All)
• 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

• 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

• MezResist(Immobilize) 2.75%
• 12 HP (1.12%) HitPoints
• 2.25% Max End
• 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)

• 2% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery
• 2.5% Defense(Energy,Negative), 1.25% Defense(Ranged)
• 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 4% RunSpeed, 4% FlySpeed, 4% JumpSpeed, 4% JumpHeight

• 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery
• 1.58% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
• 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 3.13% Resistance(Toxic)

• 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery
• 1.58% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
• 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime) (Exceeded 5 Bonus Cap)
• 3.13% Resistance(Toxic)

• MezResist(Stun) 2.2%
• 3% DamageBuff(All)
• 9% Enhancement(Accuracy) (Exceeded 5 Bonus Cap)

• MezResist(Immobilize) 3.3%
• 16.1 HP (1.5%) HitPoints
• 3% DamageBuff(All) (Exceeded 5 Bonus Cap)

• 12% (0.54 HP/sec) Regeneration

• 20% ResEffect(RunSpeed), 20% ResEffect(RechargeTime), 20% ResEffect(FlySpeed)

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Woah this kicked off (And why I didn't post on here for about a month or so until recently, too much hassle). I knew I should have stayed out after giving the build advice.

Hopefully I will get some time later to respond properly but my boss is sat next to me at the moment!

The only thing I would say (In my defence) is: AlienOne - My first advice was actually me being as helpful as possible (I thought it was a good build I did!), and the post on damage was just stating some numbers from what I saw based on that build, there was actually no bias there at all. My reply to ObsidianForce was purely adding something to his damage comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

I daren't comment incase Alien adds alot of things I didn't say and makes mountains out of molehills with it.

Argh havent finished my reply and have to go home.

Saved it in notepad and will finish tomorrow!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Just to throw my .02 cents in, I have an all-human WS that I took to 50 and he was one of the most fun characters that I've played. His build? Couldn't tell ya. Took what I took, IO'd him out (nothing really super expensive), respecced him a few times to tweak him out, and had a blast getting him to 50.

The reason I did it? Seemed like 99% of the folks here said it *shouldn't* be done. "Take the forms until you're 20/30/40 then respec out and then you'll have your 50" but it doesn't work that way. Is he less powerfull than my tri-form WS who I hit 50 with shortly after? Dunno, don't care. Each character is an individual, you can do some things on one, some things on the other, some things you can't do on either.

I have a lvl 44-ish all human PB too, he'll probably be my next 50.

Play the character that you're on, make him or her the best that THEY can be.

"...If you compare yourself with others you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself..." - Desiderata

Bit late to the party on this one, but this bit I feel compelled to respond to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 There is a small segment of players who not only believe Kheldians should remain the "build it however you like it's all equal" AT, but also do their best to make sure Kheldians can never become focused AT/sets like fire/kin fire/rad and dozens of other "cookie cutter maxximized" builds that beginners can look up on the boards to have a 90% completed (and damn good) build with the last 10% for their personal taste. The fact kheldians are more complex to build in no way logicaly means a "nearly perfect" build cannot be found it just means more time must be used finding it. And I find this my biggest sticking point and one I will not let go of.

On the one hand, especially since the changes to the inherent, I think it's probably fair to say that certain build variants (a tri-form Warshade, for instance) are probably superior in terms of power compared to other variants. Is this a desirable state of affairs? That's a matter of opinion. Personally, I say no. Based on the quoted portion above, it seems (and by all means, correct me if I'm mistaken in my presentation of your statemets) that you view the Kheldian AT having a clear 'focused' or 'best' build as a good thing. I don't.

In my opinion, part of the appeal of this AT is its versatility, the design that allows it (at least potentially) to be a number of different things and, depending on slotting and use of IOs/Sets, to have various degrees of power in various bailiwicks. To move the AT further towards a 'one clear way' or 'ideal build' would run counter to this. Of course, that's part of its appeal to me, and perhaps it's a source of frustration to other players. Fair enough. However, since a majority of other ATs in the game are relatively straightfoward to create builds for in comparison, it doesn't seem unreasonable to let Kheldians remain somewhat unique in this regard.

Now, a case can be made that by allowing the inherent to work in the forms and by making the changes to Dwarf and to BD Mire, the Devs have already taken steps in the direction of the 'one true build'. I'm hopeful that further tweaks down the line will make other variants more viable from a numbers perspective (e.g. a boost to human-form damage scalar would be welcome).

Until that time, while it may be true that certain build variants are more effective than others, it still remains true that the AT supports multiple and diverse viable builds. In the current environment some are suboptimal to others but all are playable without significant issue, at least in my view.

If anything, I'd like to see changes that reintroduce/reinforce the opportunity cost which has always been involved in building a Kheldian. I like the idea that I have to make choices and differentiate myself, that my Warshade may not be like another but can still be effective. The last thing I want is to see Kheldians become simplified to the point that one single build becomes the overriding best choice.

That's my 2 inf on the matter, anyway. YMMV.

First thing first: Apologies that I am replying to the early posts, they may have already been covered but I need to say my peace anyway. I will reply to the later posts when I get chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Enigma Could you explain this statement? It seems so counter-intuitive that I would appreciate some further elaboration. Perhaps you are talking about single-target damage? EDIT: After reading my post it occurred to me that it could be interpreted as sarcastic. It was said in the spirit of curiousity.

Yes I was on about single target damage (It was under the single target section) and happens because the two ST attacks have 1.5 second animations, and even well slotted only do about 100 and 200 respective damage, so 300 damage over 3 seconds = 100dps)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienOne Holy CRAP, I KNEW there was a reason I waited for other replies to this before I responded... There is more human-form hate/ignorance than I thought possible from some of the biggest "Kheld heavy hitters." I don't mean to be mean, but I'll have to say, Black Aftermath, that these guys who have given you advice so far do not play human-form Warshades. They're giving advice based on their own dislike of human-form warshades and from what they know on "paper" to be true--many points of which in my (documented and undocumented) *experience* are NOT true. Say, for example, the statement saying that you'd be teleporting into a group only to be walking around mezzed the entire time.

I hope you noticed that non of that negativity was from me. Using the term "Kheld heavy hitters" felt like it was semi-directed at me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienOne If that WERE true, that would mean that all tri-formers would have the same exact attack chain: 1. teleport in and hit eclipse and 2. switch to dwarf form and fight the rest of the time. Now, if THAT attack chain were true, that just completely trashes any numbers Darkstar just threw out. You know why? Because just like human form, nova form doesn't have mez protection. And you know what else? If getting mezzed is THAT bad, Darkstar's "double-mire" theory ALSO goes down the drain, because dropping from dwarf down to human form is only going to have you dropping back down into "mezzed" form.

My double mire theory was double stacked Black Dwarf Mire, not including Sunless Mire, because that is awkward to use in the forms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienOne That said, I will say that I do respect Darkstar's and Obsidian's opinion on Khelds, because they have obviously played Khelds for some time, and know enough about them to be helpful. However, I've learned that some of what they say needs to be taken with a grain of salt, because a lot of the numbers they give are based on the "perfect situation" theory. However, I've proven, not on "paper," but in actual documented experience that a human-form Warshade is not only highly capable of surviving just about any situation (no matter the extremety), a human-former is devastating enough to take down any sort of mob solo, without the need of the other forms to get the job done. Now, in the tri-former's defense, I will say you could get the job done *a few seconds faster,* but in the case of both a tri-former and a human-former, the job would STILL get done. By "the job," I of course mean taking down a mob. THAT is the main gripe I have for any tri-former giving advice on a human-form Kheldian. They are speaking from not only their dislike of human-formers, they're also speaking from only what they know on paper, and not true experience. Or, if they ARE speaking from experience, it sounds as if they are speaking from a failed experience.

I understand where you are coming from, but you have got me tagged wrongly I think. I will always say "Tri-form is the 'best' way to play" but I have never (I don't think) criticed those who do play human only, or said it will be poor (How in the world anything with 85% res to all and perma mag 4 stun can be called poor I don't know!).

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Originally Posted by AlienOne All that said, I will answer your question: No, you are NOT crazy to be excited about having a level 50 human-form Warshade. I can already tell that's the playstyle you prefer, and I can also see you are the sort of person who is willing to pay the influence it takes to make a human-former completely devastating. And by devastating, I mean devastating. I think it's a little hilarious that though the tri-former's main argument is that "OMG, there is a HUGE damage disparity between us!" they forget to note that a human-former can, for example, take down, say, the entire mob in front of Imperious in the same amount of time that it takes the entire rest of the team to take down the mobs on the bridge at the beginning of the map on an iTF.

While that sounds like an example of IO'd Warshade vs poor team the fact that a human only Warshade can win that kind of fight doesn't surprise me.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne I'm a bit tired of this overly negative tone towards human-formers. If someone wants to make one, it's their decision. Help them or get out of the way. I can admit to a tri-former having better damage and an easier time of leveling... Now can YOU admit that a human-former is not only capable of getting the job done, it can be GOOD at it? Regardless of whether or not YOU would choose to play a human-former yourself "even if at gunpoint," you cannot deny that *already proved* fact.

I think aside from the mez comment by whoever it was (Apologies my internet is too slow to go looking) you are overstating the negativity. Obsidian and myself were just pointing out what we feel is an important thing to know.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne It's also important to note that in your build, Eclipse is NOT "perma." It has a full eleven second downtime, which is devastating in any difficult/overwhelming situation. Therefore, for that reason alone, I would consider a "non-perma Eclipse" human-only build a complete "phail." Not really the smartest way to slot eclipse.

Actually originally in my stupid mistyping I was going to advice dam/end, which was worse. I actually meant Res/Rech! Stupid mistake on my part.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne I wouldn't say they are completely "useless." I would say they are "less useful." A Gravity Shield is still a better choice (for set bonuses, getting hit with -recharge for a slow eclipse recovery, and the fact that most enemies in the game have smashing/lethal attacks of some kind) than Gravimetric Snare. However, this could be debateable, and could depend on playstyle, and whether or not you want the extra endurance recovery.

I don't actually think a shield of that level is much use even without Eclipse, but 'less useful' would have been better, you are right.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne On the subject of defense, I'm not sure looking at 15% and 19% defense on a build is necessarily "slotting for defense." It's more of a "more defense is nice if I can get it," position, not a "I will sacrifice my damage output for more defense" position. While I'll say your 26% defense is better than his 15% defense, I'll also direct you to this, and mention that it's really not that much better when looking at the big picture. If you're losing slots or powers that could up your damage/damage mitigation potential just so you can slot for 10% more defense...

I wasn't actually building for defence really, all I did was 5 slot the powers for recharge as per the original build and stick the free slots where I could. Personally I would never go for defence at all, but if you go for some you might as well go for as much as yo ucan get easily. I don't think my build really sacrificed anything for the defence (Bar the Eclipse mistake!).

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Originally Posted by AlienOne ...I'd say that belongs in the same category you tri-formers place someone "who doesn't take dwarf form for mez protection." Nice, but not *necessary for survival*.

I agree totally.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne In fact, I'll go even further: In my personal experience (and this has been backed by several accounts on these very forums), the Dwarf form toggle is just a "delay my death for a minute longer" toggle.

I would never use Dwarf as a panic toggle, it is good to fight in from start to end, but Eclipse and Stygian Circle are what save your life, not Black Dwarf.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne Sure, they buffed the forms not too far back, but if you're using Dwarf form as the tri-formers suggest (for mez protection in mez-heavy mobs, or as a "oh crap I need to survive!" button), you're just delaying the inevitable. A dwarf's damage (in any extreme situation) is not going to be enough to "put you over the top." You can't switch to nova for "more damage," because you'll be mezzed, remember? You can't switch to Human-form, because you'll be mezzed, remember?

I think my look at single target damage in Black Dwarf form does hold here, the new Black Dwarf Mire is AWESOME. If you did drop to a well slotted Black Dwarf to avoid mezzes you wouldn't be losing out on anything damage or survival wise in most situations.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne Actually, no, it can't. I'm suprised one of the "mathematician" types would even suggest this. As stated before, your Eclipse is not perma in your posted build. It has a 101.7 second recharge with Hasten. Eclipse's duration is 90 seconds. That's an 11(almost 12)-second downtime. Now, if you had franken-slotted with Resistance/Recharge IOs instead of Resistance/Endurance IOs, then you'd have a 76.9 second recharge. However, although this may be a *few seconds* faster than slotting it with, say, 1 recharge IO and 4 Impervium Armors, it would not technically be "better numbers," as the franken-slotting would have no set bonuses associated with it, while doing the recharge IO/4 Impervium Armor thing would give you an endurance recovery bonus, up your total Endurance, AND keep your Eclipse "perma."

Can't see the quote you are replying to on this, but you are right I did suggest the wrong slotting on Eclipse. However I think the set bonus' on Impervium armor are absolutely worthless to a Warshade in any form.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne No argument here, except I will mention this: If you've got a +recharge build, and everything is coming up THAT fast (Shadow Blast every 2 seconds, Dark Detonation every 5 seconds, and Gravity Well every 5 or 6 seconds), you'll find that you don't even use your Ebon Eye during an attack chain. Your higher damage power Gravity Well will be back up before you're done using Shadow Blast and Dark Detonation alone. So, if you're thinking in terms of that, putting more than 1 slot into Ebon Eye really is just a waste.

The activation times of all the powers leave quite large gaps in the attack chain from what I could see. Gravity Well have a ~2 second activation, then you need to fill the next 5.5 seconds with something. Using only attacks Dark Detonation + Shadow Blast are both 1.67 second animations, meaning you still have 2.16 seconds to fill, and I would be using Shadow Bolt in that time.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne Actually, it's very, very useful for a human-former, and I wouldn't advise skipping over it, ESPECIALLY after looking at your build... With your toggles, you're consuming nearly as much endurance as what your recovery rate is just standing there. Start working in a few attacks, and your endurance bar drops like a rock, unless you got some endurance recovery to counter that. Try facing some +3s or +4s with that recovery/usage ratio, and come back and tell me if you can take down a minion (especially if you're fighing Arachnos, Malta, or Carnies) in enough time to use your Stygian Circle before your endurance runs out. Then come talk to me about the fitness pool being "not needed" with that sort of endurance usage in a build like that.

Considering Eclipse and Stygian Circle can easily recover you to full endurance I would think you can quite easily let the endurance bar dip quite low and then refill it, if you can't kill a few minions (Even at +4) before using your whole endurance bar then I would suggest the human form damage isn't as good as I thought (Because I didn't take damage per endurance into consideration, just damage per second).

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Originally Posted by AlienOne That's not even taking into consideration what it would be like to take down anything OTHER than a minion (especially after that minion you just killed has disappeared, making Stygian Circle useless) with that sort of recovery/usage ratio. I'm suprised at what you guys (not just you, Darkstar) don't take into consideration, considering how much I've been berated about "not using numbers" to prove a point.

The way I see it is any endurance not being used is a waste of time having, so the most endurance efficient build in the world would actually use 99 endurance before having a 100 endurance refil. You don't need stamina to keep the endurance topped up. Unless fighting endurance sapping enemies, but I would never make a build with that in mind.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne Although I don't like the power personally (because of KB problems, and having to run back out of melee range for a good hit--therefore making me have to hit it first before going into a mob, and possibly ruining my Eclipse hit.... Yeah... the cons outweigh the pros in this situation for me), it can be pretty powerful if used correctly. It's one of those "use with caution" powers though... Especially if you're on a team that has problems with KB, due to lack of control. This power choice is completely up to you.

Agreed, it is a power that can get you in trouble if used wrong, but for me too the pro's outweigh the cons.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne I'll also mention that Darkstar's build is *mostly* good, though I'll reiterate that not having perma-Eclipse will kill you, and having any global recharge over 180% (for perma Hasten) is a bit funny, considering that changes very little (Gravity Well recharges in 5.44 seconds with your 177.5% recharge build, whereas it recharges in 5.2 seconds with Darkstar's 195% recharge build... The change is so minute, it's really not worth it, unless what you're going for is "bragging rights for "build with highest recharge.")

I admit the mistake on Eclipse was unforgivable! And you are right about the recharge too, on my build I stopped the second I hit perma-Hasten, so some of the powers could be slotted with different sets for other kinds of bonus' while still keeping perma-Hasten. I was at work though so didn't put 'too' much thought into it at the time.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne Can you get me the numbers or how you calculated this? Because Black Dwarf (from what I've seen) can't even come CLOSE to comparing to my human-only AoE numbers. Either your numbers or wrong, or your opinion is biased or skewed. Last I checked, Black Dwarf only has two possible (damaging) attacks that can affect several targets at once (not counting having a proc in the taunt, and even that only hits the enemy you're currently targeting), and that's including Dark Extractions being up. Human has six. And you say Human-only AoE is lacking compared to Dwarf?

Well correct me if I am wrong, but the only damaging AoE's available regularly in human form are Dark Detonation and Orbiting Death (And Sunless Mire), Unchain Essence I don't count because it isn't up enough to be used in a chain, neither is Quasar. Black Dwarf Mire can be up almost as often as Dark Detonation and has higher base damage, as well as giving a massive damage buff on top of that. Your video's have proved that human form isn't bad and I have never said that, but I can't see where you can match the damage of Black Dwarf Mire from.

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Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Sorry this is so huge!

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Originally Posted by AlienOne Going on what YOU GUYS have said in the past about being mezzed (go to Dwarf! Go to Dwarf! You're going to be mezzed for at least 40 seconds! Walking around in human form mezzed for 40 seconds sucks! Why use a break free when you have Dwarf form!).... ... And according to Darkstar, Dwarf is better at multiple-target damage than human-only? If this is the case, then what's the point to "form dancing?" Seriously... Can you not see the disparity in your arguments against human-formers and your OWN playstyles? Let's just set aside the "yay, I can take down a mob faster than you!" arguments for a second. You say, "walking around in human form for 40 seconds sucks." You're a tri-former, right? Can't you hit Dwarf? You say, "I can form dance." But, didn't you just also say that the mez lasts for "40 seconds?" Contrary to popular belief, Dwarf form is NOT the equivalent to a "break free." Dropping back to human form OR trying to switch to nova during a "40 second mez" will just drop you back to a mezzed human form. Right? You say, "Dwarf form has better multiple-target damage than human form." So, why not stay in Dwarf form and take the mob down... "Makes sense," right?

Let’s just say you are human only, and I do believe that human only is the lowest damage form (Yes lower than dwarf) outside of the burst damage (Though the highest mitigation form overall) when you get mezzed you have no option but to put up with it (Discounting break-frees because they are available to all).

If you were human/dwarf you would just shift into dwarf form and avoid having any time wasted, the human form part would still be just as effective, but you would have no downtime from the mez.

Let’s say you were triform, you could pre-emptively stun in human form, cause as much damage as possible in nova and then if you did get stunned you still have the option of dwarf.

So human form is the least flexible, and causes the least damage. The only thing human form has going for it is the readiness of all the control powers, which will reduce the incoming mezzes if used well (And I know you can avoid mez entirely most of the time). The damage is still going to be below what anyone with the forms has.

The above isn't a "human form sucks" statement, but I think your defence of human builds is going too far, they are not 'bad' but they are less flexible and cause less damage.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne What other "tools" does a Warshade have in his arsenal to combat getting mezzed, besides a break-free? If it IS a break-free, then that pretty much negates the arguments tri-formers have been using against my human-former, because that's what my human-former uses to combat mezzers. Their response has always been "get Dwarf to combat mezzers." Why? I've got break frees. How can you "form dance?" Certainly not "because of dwarf." It's because of break frees. If you're like a few of the Khelds who have posted in this section of the forums, and you "refuse to use break frees or inspirations," then your only option IS Dwarf form.

I don't know anyone who refuses to use a break free from time to time. But a human/dwarf player has the same option as a human only player, plus an additional one, that can only be better.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne It's essentially the same point I've been trying to make for human-only builds for years. Using your same argument: If not taking a form somehow sacrifices human-only builds' ability to perform in a satisfactory manner, then... Why make a human-former? Because it doesn't prevent a human-former from performing well. If they take the forms, they perform better, but not having the forms doesn't mean they can't perform well.

That last line is exactly what everyone has been saying, the thread started with some advice, then there were some comments about what human form was losing out on, and then you jumped in tearing everyone to bits. Before your posts I don't think anyone made any kind of 'human sucks' comments.

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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 All set bonuses do carry over to forms. Some procs do not and some do, it's......complicated...

To add to this:
- Anything that counts as a 'set bonus' will work in all forms, and that includes things like the +3% defence IO's and LoTG +7.5% recharge IO's.
- Things that work as 'procs' do not, that includes things like the Miracle unique and the Performance Shifter: Chance for +endurance.
- The added complication is that if you have a proc like the Miracle unique that lasts for 200 seconds you can proc it in human and won’t lose the benefit while in the forms, it just won’t proc again after those 200 seconds.

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Originally Posted by LordXenite Words to live by.

Sounds more like someone who has no aspirations to me. There is nothing wrong with looking up to someone better than you and striving to become that good (I like being the best at everything - I just know that it isn't possible all the time but I will still try and emulate those who I can learn from). I think anyone with enough of a personality flaw to get bitter from failing in this case would end up bitter from failing something else regardless.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne That only happens if you actually SAY them.

I will give AlienOne his due here, he may interpret things differently to others at times but he doesn't lie.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne I tend to take things at face value, so if you say something "figuratively," and don't explain that what you're saying IS figurative, I will take it as a "literal" statement. (example: the simple statemtent "Black Dwarf does better damage than Human form." I'll call BS on it every time. However, if you say "a Bi-former properly using Dwarf form specifically for the double-mire can achieve a higher DPS than a human-former," I'll say, "You are correct, sir.")

This is what I mean by interpreting things differently, in my case since I was commenting on a build with massive recharge I would have thought it would be obvious that when I talked about Black Dwarf's damage I was talking about its full potential damage. If I had more time yesterday I might have been able to add that before the thread got too long.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne It depends on what you think a "mountain" and a "molehill" is. That's purely an opinionistic statement (and one you're entitled to make, even if it's not true) based on what you personally think is important in this game. I happen to think "freedom of build expression" is the most important *flagship* I must "bear," mainly because the "majority" thinks that there is only *one* way to do things "right." I happen to disagree, and would add that this thought process goes completely against what Khelds are about (and is most likely why I tend to like this AT better than any others).

I support your point of view (That’s me being honest) but I have learned not to jump onto every post telling them they must play tri-form, because I see your point of view. In this case it was a post asking about making a good human only build from someone who didn't seem to know much about Khelds, so some build advice was offered as well as some comparisons, that seems perfectly reasonable to me, yet you got very defensive over one line about mez that could have easily been talked about without getting anyone worked up.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne Thing is, my opinion seems to tread too harshly on other people's opinions, due to the fact that I have to continually prove that their opinions aren't "always fact." They're opinions. Personally, I could give a damn if someone is afraid I'm going to call their bluff when they're spitting BS.

The reason for the clash is that sometimes you are both wrong and sometimes you are both right. If someone wants build advice the only thing I would ever offer them is how to build the best toon possible to whatever requirements they may have, but there is no harm pointing out that those requirements may be limiting in some way, especially since I do it in as nice a manner as I can.

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Originally Posted by Justaris On the one hand, especially since the changes to the inherent, I think it's probably fair to say that certain build variants (a tri-form Warshade, for instance) are probably superior in terms of power compared to other variants. Is this a desirable state of affairs? That's a matter of opinion. Personally, I say no. Based on the quoted portion above, it seems (and by all means, correct me if I'm mistaken in my presentation of your statemets) that you view the Kheldian AT having a clear 'focused' or 'best' build as a good thing. I don't.

The only way you could convince me there isn't a single best build is if there is a best build for every different variant, all equally powerful. That isn't the case, and based on what I know about CoX I doubt it will be possible (There just isn't enough diversity in what is needed to have several roles). Until that time there must be a single best build, and I don't think it is that bad, you can still play other builds, but you do so in the knowledge of what you are giving up.

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Originally Posted by AlienOne Therefore, creating a "build to rule them all" based solely on "this is the best damage per second/fastest recharge you'll achieve, and therefore THIS is the best build," while ignoring all of the other utilities a Kheld has in his arsenal, is just ignorant.

I don't know who has ever tried to make a build that focussed on damage to the exclusion of everything else.
Most builds I have made and seen have focussed heavily on damage, because that is the 'primary' role, but to miss out on the survivability and control that Khelds have would be folly.
However focussing on every aspect other than damage would be worse, because damage is so important to Khelds and CoX in general.

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Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

And yet improving your playstyle stops after a point in time and after that only improving your build becomes possible.