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Oy Vey. That's all I have to say.
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
The fact nobody will ever be the best in all eternity is something anyone grounded in reality will know.
It's not words to live by it's don't be an idiot and live in your own little world were things like this do not exist.
It just came across to me as a don't try to become better because somebody will always be better than you statement, which is a stupid thing to say.
Seem dumb... who to? If someone feels dumb because someone else tells them their efforts are futile, maybe deep down inside they truly feel these efforts are indeed futile? I've never said it's dumb to try to be as efficient as you can be using whatever playstyle you wish to employ, but that's the root of the conflict between us on this point. I try to employ a different playstyle and you contentiously claim there's only one valid playstyle available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I'm simply frustrated by the mentality of "it's just a game, it's not really worth putting any work into so just do whatever", as it attempts to make the people who do want to do things the most efficient and or "best" way and put some work into the project seem dumb for doing so because it's just a fun little game..
Of course it's just a game! Of course different people will find different things in it that seem rewarding and important to them. For me, putting in the time to get purple IO's and have the tightest most bonus-packed build I can is something that's worth doing, perhaps, as a mental exercise in Mid's. Spending hours in the game to actually do it never is because I'm simply not motivated by pure damage/p0wnage alone. I never have been and never will be. Power selection and proc slotting are more interesting to me, and you've got nothing new to add in that regard over what has already been discussed in the many threads here, and neither do I.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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And maybe if were truely attempting insights into how another person thinks, perhaps people who are not interested in maximizing for maximum p0wnage simply deep down know they do not possess the mental or physical attributes to achieve it.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
If someone feels dumb because someone else tells them their efforts are futile, maybe deep down inside they truly feel these efforts are indeed futile?
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I don't believe this to be true but it's equally insulting, short sighted, and arrogant.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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I definitely lack the OCD factor required to focus on any game in such manner, unless the game is a single-player RPG, or was made by BioWare.
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
And maybe if were truely attempting insights into how another person thinks, perhaps people who are not interested in maximizing for maximum p0wnage simply deep down know they do not possess the mental or physical attributes to achieve it.
Well, I merely returned your earlier remarks which seemed to match the exact description: insulting, short sighted, and arrogant.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I don't believe this to be true but it's equally insulting, short sighted, and arrogant.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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That's exactly where the heart of the problem is...|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
that's the root of the conflict between us on this point. I try to employ a different playstyle and you contentiously claim there's only one valid playstyle available.
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By saying "there's only one true build," you're actually limiting people to a bland, "one way to play" universe. That's taking away "options." It's taking away, in come cases, "the fun factor." It's taking away "diversity."
Why? So you can say you are the person who came up with "the ultimate way to play?"
I believe the devs are against this thought process, and that's why there is a "power selection" screen in the first place! Why? Because you have a choice in how you want to make your character. If this weren't the case, the devs would have created "ready-made" heroes that just unlocked access to those "necessary" powers as you leveled up, without there being any sort of choice as to which power you'd rather have. Sure, some powers are better than others, but if you've already developed a "single best way to play," then what's the point in having a choice in the first place?
If Super Speed is, say, "the best way to travel," then why pick any of the other travel powers? You wouldn't be able to "maximize your speed" if you didn't pick it, so... Let's say someone picked "fly." Are then now "gimped?"
Hell no! They just picked, based on the various options available to them, what's called "their own playstyle."
Now, I truly do understand where you're coming from... I actually live by that philosophy myself: "always try to be the best that you can be in whatever you do."
I think that's a great philosophy. However, I live by that philosophy in the parameters of whatever in this game that's made me happy. So, if playing a human-form Warshade makes me happier and more satisfied than playing a tri-form Warshade, then I will "strive to be the best that I can be while playing a human-form Warshade."
Just because someone has chosen a different playstyle does not mean they cannot live by that code. Even suggesting that they can't is ludicrous.
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
I do not actually believe there is only one way to play, but saying there is not one best way is as false as saying that all travel powers are equal.
I don't care how anyone plays
I don't care what travel power anyone takes.
I DO care when people make claims that are FALSE such as there is no best most efficient way to play or all travel powers are equal.
You can mince words and say fly is more useful or SJ can be more useful because of vertical movement, but if your talking TRAVEL Teleport is the fastest followed by SS then SJ then Fly, and no matter what fun factor or "what i'm most comfortable using" factor will change the fact some are better baseline powers for TRAVEL than others.
The same is true on builds and play styles.
A little bit better is still better, a couple seconds faster per mob is still better, and I'm just mainly annoyed at having to say things that are so patently common knowledge but marginalized for certain personal preferances.
And while i'm fairly fermented on this...
People who come to the forums asking build advice are NOT asking for fun factor builds, anyone can make a fun factor build that will be able to do the content on the lowest setting.
I would honestly have to work to build something that couldnt do the content on that level. They do not need your advice or mine to do that.
People are perfectly capable of reaching mediocrity without your help or mine. I believe the ones who come here for build advice want to know how to build well for effect, to succed in more than the lowest setting level, not to find out what funzies ideas you have come up with lately.
AlienOne as much as I hate to admit it has a nitch here because building for human form requires a good bit of knowledge to build to great effect.
I simply do not know why you engage in topics of this nature as you don't care about performance beyond being able to do basic level content, which requires aboslutely no build advice at all.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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No, It really isn't. The people who do not care about performance can build however they like and the people who want to maximize their performance have a readily handy roadmap to use.|
Originally Posted by AlienOne
By saying "there's only one true build," you're actually limiting people to a bland, "one way to play" universe. That's taking away "options." It's taking away, in come cases, "the fun factor." It's taking away "diversity." |
The only thing that changes is it becomes common knowledge what the most effective way to play is to everyone.
I call this a Win/Win.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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This is the sticking point, however. When we discuss builds there's two general ways to go: you can go for what is "optimal" by whatever margin that ends up being or you can go with what's "viable". Put another way, you can talk about what "works best" or how to "not suck". These are both approaches which are concerned with performance and are asking for build advice related to performance. They are, however, asking for very different things.|
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I simply do not know why you engage in topics of this nature as you don't care about performance beyond being able to do basic level content, which requires aboslutely no build advice at all.
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It's a given that, with sufficient number-crunching and given a certain level of basic familiarity with a given powerset and tactics that one build variant is going to emerge as "optimal", even if it's only by a slim margin. The only way to avoid this would be to make all powersets essentially reskinned clones of one another and I don't think anyone on any side of this issue wants that.
However, if other build variants can perform at a level approaching that of the "optimal" build, then these variants could be considered "good". Obviously this is where a lot of subjectivity comes into the equation - how far off of "optimal" is "good enough"? At what point does the variance become trivial (or to ask it another way, at what point is the variance significant? Or is any variance significant? 50.14 DPS > 50.1 DPS, damnit!).
If we adopt a purely numerical stance then yes, there's a 'best', though oftentimes arriving at that best is a nontrivial calculation that has to take into account a number of factors beyond power selection and slotting (the time consumed formshifting, for one, leaps to mind). But is everyone seeking build advice wanting a purely numerical answer? Do they want to be told how to build their character, or do they want to know if the way they are already building and playing their character is viable? Do they want to know if it's "good enough?" How do we make that determination? Is anything short of the optimal numbers "not good enough"? "Teh suck?"
In my opinion, any build that can be successful playing basic content in reasonable time, can contribute meaningfully to teams playing a variety of content and is enjoyable to the person playing it is a viable build. I for one prefer to find a way to optimize the build that the player has chosen rather than remake it into a 'perfect build'. I believe that Dev decisions should reinforce and expand this AT as one which supports multiple viable builds. I don't really want to see them all made perfectly, equally optimal - rather, I think there should be pros and cons to each. For example, a human-form variant gets significantly more utility from Inky Aspect and from Fitness than does a Tri-Former.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. I can't speak for other people who've advocated variety in Kheldian builds, but speaking for myself, I've always taken pains to talk about "viability" rather than what's "optimal". It is, naturally, subjective. YMMV.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
To add a few ideas of my own to the very well expressed thoughts of Justaris, those who want "the ultimate build" often self-identify, putting their desire for the most dominating / powerful build possible into the thread title and/or the OP.
Most people treat COX as a pleasant pastime, and not as an important focus for their daily efforts. They're typically happy with "good enough" or "not sucking", and are not concerned with optimizing anything about their approach to the game (their builds, their use of the markets, their general knowledge of the game, or their playing skills).
Optimization isn't at all interesting to me and I make no efforts to optimize anything about how I approach COX; I have no apologies to offer for that choice, either. Still, those who want to optimize aren't doing anything wrong; if somebody wants to optimize, good for them and hopefully they have fun doing it.
In my opinion this is a perfectly fine stance to take, but even the phrase "not sucking" is in itself very very subjective.
Anyone with half a brain can make any AT well enough to do normal lowest setting content without getting any build advice whatsoever.
That is by most definitions "Not Sucking".
When people require more than this to the point their seeking advice, do we just point out one of the mediocre ways to do it or do we suggest the best way and allow them to scale back to what they feel they need?
To me this seems the most logical method.
I truely do believe some of the people here want to avoid ANYONE finding an optimal way because in that event most people will gravitate to that best way and anyone who doesn't feel deathly worried that they will be seen as some for of "gimp" build.
To which I have to say either you care about your performance or you don't, if you don't then why do you care what anyone thinks?
I simply cannot think of a reasonable reason to not always provide people seeking advice with the very best method first and THEN letting them decide if they want to do that or not.
Nobody is forced to build anything any way but how they want, so what is the harm in providing the most efficient methods?
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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I disagree. I don't think that "most people" coming to this section of the forums (and even more so to the "forums" in general) are all looking for "teh pwnz0rs wai 2 p14y."|
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
People who come to the forums asking build advice are NOT asking for fun factor builds, anyone can make a fun factor build that will be able to do the content on the lowest setting.
I would honestly have to work to build something that couldnt do the content on that level. They do not need your advice or mine to do that. People are perfectly capable of reaching mediocrity without your help or mine. I believe the ones who come here for build advice want to know how to build well for effect, to succed in more than the lowest setting level, not to find out what funzies ideas you have come up with lately. |
I think that's a pretty broad (and incorrect) assumption to make.
YOU may think it's "easy" to build a Kheld, because you've played them for so long. Others may not. Even people familiar with Khelds seem to still ask me for advice on *gasp* tri-forming... There is already more proof in the amount of posts there has been over the years in this section alone that people can easily get frustrated with building and playing a Kheld, regardless of whether or not they're on "the easiest difficulty setting."
All kinds come to these boards. Not JUST the "number crunchers." Not JUST the "human-only" crowd. Not JUST the "fun factor" people.
It sounds to me that you're pretty closed-minded when it comes to "alternative ways to play." You say "you don't care," but then you get all into trying to accuse me of encouraging people to "play with mediocrity."
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I simply do not know why you engage in topics of this nature as you don't care about performance beyond being able to do basic level content, which requires aboslutely no build advice at all.
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If posting videos that prove I'm doing content at +2 or higher isn't proof enough for you that I'm doing things above "basic level content," I truly don't know what to tell you.
But, that's my point. You seem to think playing human-only is "mediocre." That "it will get slaughtered." That it "can only handle basic level content."
That is absolutely incorrect, and is what shows that you not only don't know what you're talking about when making any reference to human-only play, it is you who might need to "check your facts."
If a human-former can't handle more than "basic level content," how am I doing it?
If a human-former is only "mediocre," why does it seem "awesome" to anyone who's seen me play it?
Maybe you should look beyond your personal hatred of the playstyle and try to see what it's actually capable of.
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Originally Posted by Justaris
It's a given that, with sufficient number-crunching and given a certain level of basic familiarity with a given powerset and tactics that one build variant is going to emerge as "optimal", even if it's only by a slim margin. The only way to avoid this would be to make all powersets essentially reskinned clones of one another and I don't think anyone on any side of this issue wants that.
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Originally Posted by Justaris
However, if other build variants can perform at a level approaching that of the "optimal" build, then these variants could be considered "good". Obviously this is where a lot of subjectivity comes into the equation - how far off of "optimal" is "good enough"? At what point does the variance become trivial (or to ask it another way, at what point is the variance significant? Or is any variance significant? 50.14 DPS > 50.1 DPS, damnit!).
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I say "slightly," because you'd still have to consider how many actual people in-game are running at those settings...
I consistently run at +2x8 or +3x8 myself (whether solo or teamed), but that doesn't mean I believe everyone else should as well, or "they're mediocre." That's ridiculous.
As a side note, it's interesting to note that most fire/kins who "farm" that I've run across, refuse to run content higher than +2x8, unless they have at least 1 or 2 other "pocket lvl 50s" helping them....
Hero 1 said himself at this year's Comic-Con that the +4x8 setting was/is meant for people who like to "maximize" their builds or just test their surviveability. Obsidian seems like one of those people. I know I am one of those people...
But, placing "anyone who comes for help" into that same category is very narrow-minded.
If someone comes on the forums and says "give me the best human-form build," you do what? Give him the best human-form build.
You don't berate him for going that direction, neither do you make it appear that he would "suck" in any way, shape, or form, because that would be, in fact, absolutely false.
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Originally Posted by Justaris
Is anything short of the optimal numbers "not good enough"? "Teh suck?"
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According to myself, no.
That's the basic disagreement.
If his build can do 100DPS more than my build, he wants the title of "teh best," regardless of whether or not we both just took a mob down in less than 30 seconds, with a possible 10 second disparity between our times. Regardless of whether or not I died or had fun doing the same thing he just did (but a few seconds longer), my build would still be considered "inferior."
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Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
those who want "the ultimate build" often self-identify, putting their desire for the most dominating / powerful build possible into the thread title and/or the OP.
Most people treat COX as a pleasant pastime, and not as an important focus for their daily efforts. They're typically happy with "good enough" or "not sucking", and are not concerned with optimizing anything about their approach to the game (their builds, their use of the markets, their general knowledge of the game, or their playing skills). |
The "casual player" seems to be some sort of "anomaly" in the mathmetician's "calculations"...lol
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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That's a fair stance. I'd just add that, in addition to providing "the most efficient methods", especially where Khelds are concerned, it behooves those in the know to give at least some sense of where the other options fall in relation to whatever's most efficient. |
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
Nobody is forced to build anything any way but how they want, so what is the harm in providing the most efficient methods? |
In other words, if we were talking about Masterminds, there's really no question of how well the "petless" variant compares to a variant that takes and uses the pet powers. Anyone who goes the petless route is challenging themselves and deliberately taking a significant and drastic hit to the power of the character. But there's not that clear of a disparity here. A human-former is not comparable to a petless MM. Unlike the majority of ATs, this AT has a number of popular variants that perform differently but perform well (anecdotally, at any rate).
To answer the question: what is the harm in providing the most efficient methods? Well, if it's presented in terms (stated or implied) of "this is what you should do if you want to really play your Warshade", I think that's irresponsible. The 'expert' has just told the neophyte player that his/her way is wrong in so many words. Now, if the neophyte is expressly looking for the most optimal build possible, fine. But in my experience that's the minority.
Most people say something to the effect of "I want to play a Human/Dwarf. Am I going to suck?" We should absolutely tell this person what the most efficient methods are - and we should also give a sense of where the build he/she wants to play stacks up in comparison. What (if any) advantages does the variant have over the optimal choice? What shortfalls should the player expect if he/she elects to play the variant rather than the optimal? Lay it out and let the player who came to us for information make the final determination. That's what we should be doing in this forum. We should be a resource.
If you ask me.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
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Isn't that exactly how this thread started out?|
Originally Posted by Justaris
Most people say something to the effect of "I want to play a Human/Dwarf. Am I going to suck?" We should absolutely tell this person what the most efficient methods are - and we should also give a sense of where the build he/she wants to play stacks up in comparison. What (if any) advantages does the variant have over the optimal choice? What shortfalls should the player expect if he/she elects to play the variant rather than the optimal? Lay it out and let the player who came to us for information make the final determination. That's what we should be doing in this forum. We should be a resource.
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The OP asked for a human only build, and got some advice and a build (Good advice - but with a few mistakes) and then there was a bit about what the benefits of tri-form over human form were.
I guess the part missing was that I (we) never say that human only (Or whatever) is capable of x performance, we just say it is x% worse than tri-form. But what we should really say is: That build is capable of running at x difficulty and can beat an x man spawn in x seconds, but that is x seconds slower than if you did it a different way. Then the person asking the question can decide for himself with 100% of the facts, I guess I present as many facts as I can, but I skew them without realising it.
Looking at my post about damage I came to the conclusion that human only damage was below the forms but should have mentioned what you gain instead, like the quick access to controls that can lock down whole spawns, massive healing ability etc. AlienOne has proven beyond doubt that human only can be very good, I will start using that as a baseline in future.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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I would appreciate that more than you could possibly know.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I guess the part missing was that I (we) never say that human only (Or whatever) is capable of x performance, we just say it is x% worse than tri-form. But what we should really say is: That build is capable of running at x difficulty and can beat an x man spawn in x seconds, but that is x seconds slower than if you did it a different way. Then the person asking the question can decide for himself with 100% of the facts...
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Obsidian asked a while back if I could start "admitting" that performance from a tri-former is better (or accused me of not doing it, whichever it was), and I did so. In fact, not only have I included the "disclaimer" in posts for any first-timer that asks, I also included it in the beginning of a guide that has absolutely nothing to do with tri-forms.
All I ask is the same from the tri-form community. Sure, performance from a human-former may not be "as good," but gosh darn it if you can't be a little less negative in your approach about it... Any reader who hears how you approach it could more than easily get the impression that playing human-form all but blows.
When I read a post that presents human-forming like that, I can't help but jump in (albeit a bit too abrasive) and clarify some issues.
Sure, I may prefer to play human over tri-form, but I don't present playing tri-form as "pretty much the worst possible route you could go."
You may prefer to play tri-form, and that's cool. Just don't go around telling everyone that may be interested in creating a human-form build that "if you do, you won't be able to do anything more than "basic level content."
Because that's a lie.
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
People may find Human form more interesting and more fun than the Kheld forms. Being that it is a game that is what you could be optimizing right there.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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That is kind of how I try to do it, I will tell someone tri-form is best, yet if they still want to play human form I will try as best as I can to make the most of that for them.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
People may find Human form more interesting and more fun than the Kheld forms. Being that it is a game that is what you could be optimizing right there.
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Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Either I am typing things I do not realize or your absolutely missquoting me and putting words into my mouth at every turn.|
Originally Posted by AlienOne
According to Obsidian, yes. According to myself, no. That's the basic disagreement. |
On the off chance I'm actually saying this i'm going back to reread what I actually posted, I suggest you do the same and compaire it to what you think I said.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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Actually is it really so clear? |
Originally Posted by Justaris
In other words, if we were talking about Masterminds, there's really no question of how well the "petless" variant compares to a variant that takes and uses the pet powers.
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I know a guy who actually did the petless mastermind thing, he could complete missions set for +2 x2.
You say this is "teh Suck" (actually you didn't say that but i'm begining to see the virtues of missquoting what people say as a benifit to my cause.) but given the proof I have seen (the fact he could do this solo) can I call him gimped because he does poorer than a pet mastermind?
Depends on your perspective it seems.
You cannot have it both ways.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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I'm going off of what you have implied throughout just about every post referring to human-only play.|
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
Either I am typing things I do not realize or your absolutely missquoting me and putting words into my mouth at every turn.
On the off chance I'm actually saying this i'm going back to reread what I actually posted, I suggest you do the same and compaire it to what you think I said. |
I don't think it takes a whole lot of work to see that posting "you'll get slaughtered" is pretty much the same as saying "anything less than 'optimal play' sucks."
If you're going to get "slaughtered" if you play anything less than tri-form, then it "sucks," right?
I think anyone (except you, evidently) could see that.
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Your massively exagerating both what I said and the intent.
Your completely ignoring alot of what I specificly said in this very thread because it contradicts what you want to convey.
Your assuming, and changing what was said to fit your ends.
As I have said countless times before, (and you have chosen to ignore it for your own reasons) in my opinion a Tri-Form will always out perform a human build when built with an equal costing build and played by equally competant players.
I do not believe human form is "Teh Suck".
Do I believe it is sub-optimal?
Very much so yes.
Do I care what anyone plays for build?
Not even a little.
Do I think the fact Tri-Forming performs better should become common knowledge to everyone and be pointed out to anyone who does not seem to be aware of the fact?
Absolutely, and always.
Does this mean in anyways whatsoever that I demand everyone play Tri-Form?
Nope.
Do I believe everyone would benifit by doing so?
Yes, at the moment with how Kheldians currently are implimented, thats almost an indisputable fact.
I do not really care how annoyed you get when point these things out (even in human build threads).
I believe these things are important enough to point out that I have no intention to stop doing so because what I say is basicly accurate if not nicely put.
I'm not even sorry you somehow feel my pointing things like this out somehow compels people to avoid human formers because in the end it's their choice to make and making them informed allows them to make that choice with more facts than it's perfectly doable and fun.
Giving out correct information does no harm to anyone except people whos agendas benefit from people not having all the facts
ie. People who do not want people to know the best most efficient way to build/play for fear some unknown build/style will become the "cookie cutter" one everyone uses and excells with.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
Can't we all just get along?
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LMAO...ahem I mean...awww ok.
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Originally Posted by Cyg_X1_Denizen
Can't we all just get along?
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If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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I have not, because I say the same things in any thread asking about tri-forming. In fact, as stated before, I've said the same thing in my human-only guide.|
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
As I have said countless times before, (and you have chosen to ignore it for your own reasons) in my opinion a Tri-Form will always out perform a human build when built with an equal costing build and played by equally competant players.
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So, in fact, you're the one ignoring what I've been saying all along. You seem to think that I have trouble admitting to that. I do not, and have stated as such many times.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I do not believe human form is "Teh Suck".
Do I believe it is sub-optimal? Very much so yes. |
And, I'll also add that while it's "sub-optimal," it's not "very much so" sub-optimal. That is suggesting that it can't do anything "above standard level content." Which you have ALSO stated.
So, have you stated in so many words that you think it sucks?
Yeah, pretty much.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
Do I think the fact Tri-Forming performs better should become common knowledge to everyone and be pointed out to anyone who does not seem to be aware of the fact?
Absolutely, and always. |
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I do not really care how annoyed you get when point these things out (even in human build threads).
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In fact, I don't get "annoyed" at someone pointing out the strengths of a tri-former.
What I DO get annoyed by is the fact that you keep presenting human-forming as some sort of "mediocre" or "sucky" or "can only handle basic level content" way to play (Which you have also said, and I can quote if necessary).
That is, in fact, a bald-faced LIE.
And you damn well know it.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I'm not even sorry you somehow feel my pointing things like this out somehow compels people to avoid human formers because in the end it's their choice to make and making them informed allows them to make that choice with more facts than it's perfectly doable and fun.
Giving out correct information does no harm to anyone except people whos agendas benefit from people not having all the facts |
If anything, it proves your knowledge of human-form gameplay is somewhere between "slim" and "none."
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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This is the only post "I" could find mentioning slaughter (which I already said was over stated) and it's referancing a human forms vulnerability to mezz and possible methods to counteract this. If your reading more into it than that, I don't know what to tell you.|
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I would swap the whole fighting/leadership pools to something more like the concealment pool though as well as pick up the nuke, and gravitic emmination for offencive ability to not be slaughtered.
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If you can find another feel free to post it as I cannot seem to find anything beyond this first post other than repeated attempts to change what I actually said or give it a meaning of your choosing dispite what I most likely ment of it.
I do believe Tri out performs human based on the fact that we can both operate mired and perma eclipsed (capped ressists) but in squid form i'll lose 3 seconds shifting which gives you a couple extra opening attacks (3 at most due to animation times) but after that i'll be able to spam my 2 aoes without stopping with a higher damage ratio (1.0 to your .85) and an additional 45% damage boost from being in squid form while you rely on OD and Dark Detonation.
You can of course hit Unchain Essence and or Quasar but with only a 1 second drop to human I can also use mine (both 5 slotted 89% recharge 94% damage so at best you might have an extra slot in both of the nuke powers.)
I simply do not see where your making up the damage to make it so close as you believe.
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Originally Posted by AlienOne
It sounds to me that you're pretty closed-minded when it comes to "alternative ways to play." You say "you don't care," but then you get all into trying to accuse me of encouraging people to "play with mediocrity." |
But that aside I should have cut you off when you first posted this as what you have quoted was part of the back and forth between LX and me and not you and me. I wasn't really interested in correcting you and I figured any attempt to would just illicite more problems than it was worth as you were being fairly civil.
But back on topic.
Your cobbling things together that I "almost" said in attempt to prove what i'm thinking.
It's not very effective.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
Dude, is your memory THAT selective?
I think this is the third time I've had to resort to going back and finding every single post to quote you on things you seem to deny you said.
Sad, bro... Very sad.
So... If you've never implied that not giving "the most uber ultimate 'most optimal' build" means you'll have to be doing content "on the normal lowest setting," then what does the bolded section mean?
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Seriously, what does that mean? That if a "final, most uber awesome ultimate optimal build" is finally somehow created (most likely by your 'genious mathematical skillz'), then all anyone has to do for any future advice for ANY build is to just link to what you've put together in Mid's, and have proved 'beyond the shadow of a doubt' is "the perfect build?"|
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
Anyone with half a brain can make any AT well enough to do normal lowest setting content without getting any build advice whatsoever.
That is by most definitions "Not Sucking". |
Screw giving advice. ANYONE should be able to do "normal content," right?
I have one question though: Why do people still come for Kheld advice then?
Most people I've seen coming for Kheld advice (whichever form it may be) aren't wanting to build an "AV soloer" or a "+4x8 soloer."
They're just wanting advice on what the community thinks about different builds, why they would/wouldn't take certain powers, or (to quote Justaris) find a build that's "viable."
So, if "by most people's definitions" (or the definition you just laid out in your own quote--you said it, I didn't) 'not sucking' is doing stuff on basic level content, by that standard alone, that proves human-forming Khelds are damn awesome.
But... If a human former (by that definition) is that good, then...
Why say giving human-form advice is "pointing out a mediocre ways to play?" (your own quote provided below for your own lack of search/remembrance skills)
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
When people require more than this to the point their seeking advice, do we just point out one of the mediocre ways to do it or do we suggest the best way and allow them to scale back to what they feel they need?
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You're suggesting here that people who "build how they like" don't care about performance?
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
No, It really isn't. The people who do not care about performance can build however they like and the people who want to maximize their performance have a readily handy roadmap to use.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
People who come to the forums asking build advice are NOT asking for fun factor builds, anyone can make a fun factor build that will be able to do the content on the lowest setting.
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Let's take the OP for example. He asked for a "best performance" human-only build.
Your response to anyone giving a build in this regard (because of your already stated hatred for human-forming) is that it is "mediocre" or "can only handle basic level content"....Correct?
No? Then why make a statement like is, as if the Kheldian community DIDN'T have "good performance" in mind when giving a build, whether it's human-only or not?
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I would honestly have to work to build something that couldnt do the content on that level. They do not need your advice or mine to do that.
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I know my builds can handle the higher level content. They're human-only builds, but.... *somehow*, by some magical essence of some kind, they are able to handle content well above "normal basic level content."
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
People are perfectly capable of reaching mediocrity without your help or mine. I believe the ones who come here for build advice want to know how to build well for effect, to succed in more than the lowest setting level, not to find out what funzies ideas you have come up with lately.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I simply do not know why you engage in topics of this nature as you don't care about performance beyond being able to do basic level content, which requires aboslutely no build advice at all.
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Can you explain to me exactly how I'm supposed to take that?
Please do.
If I'm reading that correctly, you're suggesting not only that playing a human-form Kheldian means that I don't care about performance, you're also saying that I can't do anything above basic level content. On top of that, you're also saying that because I can't do anything above basic level content, there's no sense in coming up with any build advice FOR a human-form Kheldian.
All of those statements are patently false, incorrect, and borderline defamatory.
It's all there. Read your own words for yourself.
I couldn't make this junk up if I had a year to sit and think about it.
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
The fact nobody will ever be the best in all eternity is something anyone grounded in reality will know.
It's not words to live by it's don't be an idiot and live in your own little world were things like this do not exist.
It just came across to me as a don't try to become better because somebody will always be better than you statement, which is a stupid thing to say.
Anything worth doing at all is worth doing as best you are able. (which is in itself a no duh type of statement itself.)
I'm simply frustrated by the mentality of "it's just a game, it's not really worth putting any work into so just do whatever", as it attempts to make the people who do want to do things the most efficient and or "best" way and put some work into the project seem dumb for doing so because it's just a fun little game..
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.