Custom critter nerf: reversed or spread?

This bit of message feedback is from a recent run through of an arc called "Welcome To the Future", which I wrote. Player character was a level 23 brute.

You have defeated Amazon Warrior
You gain 72 experience and 50 infamy.
The Worshipful Company of Blackguards gains 12 prestige.
You have defeated Liquorice Meanie
You earned 2 architect tickets!
You gain 72 experience and 50 infamy.
The Worshipful Company of Blackguards gains 12 prestige.
You have defeated Blueberry Meanie
You earned 2 architect tickets!
You gain 72 experience and 50 infamy.
The Worshipful Company of Blackguards gains 12 prestige.

"Amazon Warrior" is a custom critter. I included that custom faction in the mission for comparison. The arc is a proof-of-concept arc that seeks to show that the custom critter nerf achieved nothing worth doing.

"Liquorice Meanie" and "Blueberry Meanie" are renamed and re-colored 5th Column or Council soldiers in a custom faction. Since they are standard critters, they ought to be giving standard XP and rewards.

As this dialog makes clear, they are now giving exactly the same rewards in XP and inf as the custom critter does.

Either the custom critter nerf has been partially reversed, or it has spread to all custom factions of standard critters. The first was what needed to be done. The second is a further deterioration of the creative possibilities of the MA, since it not only hurts critter creators, but also those who want to rename and recolor standard critters.

I don't recall seeing a patch note about this. Which is it?

<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

Custom critters/groups give experience based on two things:

1) Does the custom group have AT LEAST one minion, lieutenant, and boss in it?
2) Is the custom critter set to have AT LEAST Standard, Hard, or Extreme powersets? Standard = 75% XP, Hard = 100% XP, Extreme = 125% (I think, could be 110%) XP.

It seems like the first point might be causing the issue for you, Hera. If there aren't all three standard divisions (minion, Lt, boss) in a custom group, EVERYTHING in that group will give less XP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

The custom critters are all set to Standard difficulty and have no custom powers. I don't believe that it's possible to go beyond 100% XP for custom critters by setting them to Hard.

There are all three levels in both the custom group of standard critters, and the custom group. The custom-standard group is essentially made up of Council and 5th Column soldiers, minus the Marksmen/Rifle, Galaxy, and robot types; their costumes have all been re-colored and named after ice cream flavors. The mission was set to spawn for 3 players / +0, no bosses when solo.

<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

If you leave the MA and go grab a paper mission, how much XP does a standard Council minion give you?

... And since when can you recolor existing enemies!?! I know what I'm doing when I get home from work tonight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

For everyone's reference, here's Heraclea's guide to the i16 XP changes.

Hera, I don't want to make theories without facts, so would you mind posting how you designed your custom faction and critter, just so we can have a little idea of what you're working with? Also, thanks for doing a little research for us here.

Okay, sorry, I'm stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heraclea The custom critters are all set to Standard difficulty and have no custom powers. .... There are all three levels in both the custom group of standard critters, and the custom group. The custom-standard group is essentially made up of Council and 5th Column soldiers...

Okay, for those of us who have a hard time with reading comprehension , we have:

Custom Faction One (Amazons), containing:

1. Amazon Warrior (Stand/Stand) minion? - 75.0% nml XP
2. Amazon LT (Stand/Stand) - 75.0% nml XP
3. Amazon Boss (Stand/Stand) - 75.0% nml XP

And Custom Faction Two (Ice Cream Fascists)

1. ICF Minion (standard critter recolor)
2. ICF LT (standard critter recolor)
3. ICF Boss (standard critter recolor)

Yes?

There's also the possibility that at level 23, there is no difference between a Normal and Hard difficulty minion; rather, all differing powers might not be available at that level. Thus, you could potentially be earning 100% XP for them at 23, but not at higher levels.

I know they were setting it up so that enemies with customized powersets would give rewards based on whether or not they had every power included in one of the default tiers. Might they have changed it similarly for a custom enemy's level?

Again, if you could go out and grab a mission (preferably Council) and whack a few minions, it'd be nice to at least know which way the XP curve is skewed in your mission--are the custom NPCs giving more XP, or are the default NPCs giving less?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heraclea The Amazons also appear in the arc "Death by Snoo-Snoo", published as 247372.

I am so playing that later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

It does look like everything in Mission Architect has been nerfed so that it only gives as much XP and inf as custom critters. This is from a newspaper mission played on the same character, again fighting even level mobs:

You have defeated Warrior Slicer
You gain 108 experience and 50 infamy.
The Worshipful Company of Blackguards gains 12 prestige.
You have defeated Warrior Slammer
You gain 108 experience and 50 infamy.
The Worshipful Company of Blackguards gains 12 prestige.
You have defeated Warrior Slammer
You gain 108 experience and 50 infamy.
The Worshipful Company of Blackguards gains 12 prestige.
You have defeated Warrior Slammer
You gain 108 experience and 50 infamy.
The Worshipful Company of Blackguards gains 12 prestige.

The infamy is the same; the XP substantially above. I do not off the top of my head recall whether Warriors get an XP bonus; was unable to draw a Council mission.

Edit: Regular Warrior minions are not reported as giving more than simple full XP.

Therefore:

• The XP given by Mission Architect critters has been further nerfed, from 75% to 66.6%; and
• The XP nerf applies system wide, to standard critters in MA as well as to custom critters. There is no longer a difference between standard critters and custom critters (with standard powersets) in MA missions.
• The inf awarded has been apparently equalized, though, and all mobs in MA now give full inf awards.

<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

That IS weird. You're only getting 2/3 of the XP... isn't that what happens when you're missing one of the standard mob types in a group?

Perhaps it's a bug related to the "no bosses" personal difficulty option when playing MA arcs?

This requires a great deal of further testing. :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Perhaps you should try council or 5th in their standard groups in an AE arc and see what xp you get. I bet those are normal.

But I'm actually not surprised that a custom group made up of random members of various enemies gives fewer experience. I'd think you could exploit that pretty easily since most things are balanced as a group, not as individuals.

I can confirm that all Mission Architect XP has been set to 2/3 of standard XP. These results are from fighting system standard Warriors, set as the base enemy group as a standard selection.

You have defeated Warrior Bruiser
You earned 3 architect tickets!
You gain 72 experience and 50 infamy.
The Worshipful Company of Blackguards gains 12 prestige.
You have defeated Warrior Bruiser
You gain 72 experience and 50 infamy.
The Worshipful Company of Blackguards gains 12 prestige.
You have defeated Warrior Chopper
You gain 72 experience and 50 infamy.
The Worshipful Company of Blackguards gains 12 prestige.

Test mission is 346047, "Warrior's Test". I also included a custom group made of Warriors and the Amazons on the map, for test purposes.

Edit:

I also gave some, but not all, of the Amazons a hard secondary. I can confirm that those critters now give more XP than do the system standard Warriors simply added to the map as the default spawns. I do suspect that something is not working as intended here. All MA critters, custom or standard, in custom groups or in standard groups, are giving out the same XP. That XP level is 2/3 of standard. The only critters in MA that give more XP are custom critters with one power set raised to Hard or Extreme.

<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

That's gotta be a bug. Despite what some people say on these forums, the devs aren't big into stealth nerfs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

I can now also confirm that flagging "spawn bosses when solo" to on has no effect on XP for non-boss critters.

<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

Right. Where's that Dev?

This is a very disturbing result.

Sigh. I just got home and tested this on my own arcs, and they're only giving 2/3 the XP of regular content as well.

Well, if it's a bug, it'll get fixed quickly. If it's intentional, then I've been meaning to add to my kneecap collection... ¬_¬




vvv (See below. Macskull is correct. I am such a noob. )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Maybe this is patrol XP playing tricks on you? Don't forget that outside the MA you're getting a bonus to XP but not inf if you have patrol XP.

Wait, I'm lost here...

So "customs [by customs do you mean fully-custom-created or customized-standard foes Like Hera's Council?] are not giving out less XP", but what is this about Freaks giving out 261, customs 274 (more? really?) and Freaks "giving out 5% less and the higher the level the greater the reduction"???

Er, what? Did I miss a detail here that would link all this info together somehow that would make it make sense? Maybe I read this thread too quickly and missed something...

Sorry Hera, I didn't mention but my custom minions do indeed have 2 Hard power sets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5 Wait, I'm lost here... So "customs [by customs do you mean fully-custom-created or customized-standard foes Like Hera's Council?] are not giving out less XP", but what is this about Freaks giving out 261, customs 274 (more? really?) and Freaks "giving out 5% less and the higher the level the greater the reduction"??? Er, what? Did I miss a detail here that would link all this info together somehow that would make it make sense? Maybe I read this thread too quickly and missed something...

I was referring to actual completely original custom minions. I didn't try it with recoloring an existing minion, but I did include a normal Freakshow minion into my custom group when I was testing.

Freakshow got their XP reduced when Issue 16 launched. They previously gave more XP and inf than a standard enemy, but it was decided that they're not any more difficult than other enemy groups of similar levels. And since they have a chance to rez, you have a chance to get double XP off of them anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!