City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Perma holding AVs. Is it possible for controllers?

Arcanaville

By Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2009-11-13 09:07 in Controllers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS View Post
I think it came down to activation times with stackin mag abilities.
Bingo. Durations and recharges are standardized among the sets, but the activations differ wildly.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherby Goode View Post
Ok, to hold an AV through the PToD you need to stack up >54 mags or mez (4 for the base protection, and 50 for the triangles).

With ST holds slotted with 95% hold and recharge Mind can manage about 22 mags indefinately. Fire can get up to 25. Earth can only manage 21, but Volcanic Gasses can stack up to 22 mags on a single target. Ice Arrow and Seismic Smash (the only other stackable holds available to Controllers) can maintain 6 and 3 mags respectively.

Hasten and Power Boost obviously both help enourmously (PB helps more than Hasten, but only lasts 15s)

So, and Earth/TA/Stone troller can easily maintain >54 mag on a single target, so long as Volcanic Gasses is up.

When considering other secondaries and primaries, remember a few things. EM Pulse and EMP Arrow have loooong recharges and cannot be made perma (same with the AoE holds). TK and Choking Cloud don't stack with themselves. and Singularity and Jack are terribad at stacking mez reliably. Jack because of poor attack cycling once the sword is out and Singy because of the unusually long cycle time on his Gravity Distortion power.
I think something might be wrong with the calculations for volcanic gasses. Slotted to 95%, each pulse is a 14.53s hold. If you count how many shots each pseudopet gets, there are a total of 17 pulses over a 60 second duration, for an average cycle time of 3.75s. Thus, on average, as far as I can tell you'd get 4 stacks for an average of 12 mag stacked. I'm not sure how you're getting 22.

Also, don't count out stoney. While his seismic smash isn't *that* good of a hold, he at least doesn't have much of any problem cycling it anymore. If he's got 3 dam/mez in him, I get that he'd stack perhaps another 2 mag on average. Not much, but still.

I don't know how to really account for jack's AI quirks, but singy, despite his slow cycle, still can get mag 9 stacked plus about another half mag from his overpower, assuming max enhancement and that he cycles his hold well.

If we're trying to talk about holding AVs, I'd have to assume that you'd be willing to throw some money at the problem. Without a goodly amount of global recharge, I don't think anyone could do it reliably - *possibly* a grav/TA/earth.

@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.

This is what it means to be a tank!

 

Posted

Yep. I have to agree about that. I'm not exactly a numbers person. But I was asking about this keeping in mind the enormous amount of needed to achieve required recharge times.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino View Post
I think something might be wrong with the calculations for volcanic gasses. Slotted to 95%, each pulse is a 14.53s hold. If you count how many shots each pseudopet gets, there are a total of 17 pulses over a 60 second duration, for an average cycle time of 3.75s. Thus, on average, as far as I can tell you'd get 4 stacks for an average of 12 mag stacked. I'm not sure how you're getting 22.

The Mag 22 is from direct testing.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino View Post
I think something might be wrong with the calculations for volcanic gasses. Slotted to 95%, each pulse is a 14.53s hold. If you count how many shots each pseudopet gets, there are a total of 17 pulses over a 60 second duration, for an average cycle time of 3.75s. Thus, on average, as far as I can tell you'd get 4 stacks for an average of 12 mag stacked. I'm not sure how you're getting 22.
It seems the VG pets are spawned at 10 second intervals, but last for 15 seconds each (except the last one which lasts for 10 seconds). So the pseudopets seem to overlap 50% of the time.

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Posted

Volcanic Gasses breakdown:

VG summons 6 "Voltaic [sic] Geysers" at 10s intervals. Each geyser lasts for 15s except for the last one that only lasts for 10s.

The Geysers all have a power called "Thermal Vents." This power applies a mag3 7.45s hold every 6 seconds. Enhanced, that is 14.5s.

Now, ignoring the pet overlap we can calculate that thermal vents applies a maintained 6.5 mags. With the overlap, that goes to an extra ~3 mag...



Oh crap, sorry.

When I tested this, Recharge enhancers where being passed down to the "Voltaic Geyser" sub-pets. I have no idea if that was changed when the other pets got their fixed recharges. If that is the case, then VG can only do about 9mags. If recharge can still be passed down to the sub-pets, then about 20-22 mags can be seen.


To the test server!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherby Goode View Post
Volcanic Gasses breakdown:

VG summons 6 "Voltaic [sic] Geysers" at 10s intervals. Each geyser lasts for 15s except for the last one that only lasts for 10s.

The Geysers all have a power called "Thermal Vents." This power applies a mag3 7.45s hold every 6 seconds. Enhanced, that is 14.5s.

Now, ignoring the pet overlap we can calculate that thermal vents applies a maintained 6.5 mags. With the overlap, that goes to an extra ~3 mag...



Oh crap, sorry.

When I tested this, Recharge enhancers where being passed down to the "Voltaic Geyser" sub-pets. I have no idea if that was changed when the other pets got their fixed recharges. If that is the case, then VG can only do about 9mags. If recharge can still be passed down to the sub-pets, then about 20-22 mags can be seen.


To the test server!
Minor correction: I think you mean "volcanic" and not "Voltaic" -- I'm interested to see the results of the test. If recharge used to increase the frequency of the pulses, then it would certainly make a difference now that Recharge is not passed on to the pets.

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Posted

For some strange reason, all the pets summoned by Volcanic Gasses are labeled "Voltaic" by the game. Strange but true.

 

Posted

Ok, testing is showing the following results.

Hasten no longer has an effect.
Geas of the Kind Ones no longer has an effect
Vanguard Medallion still has an effect.
Recharge from slotting no longer has an effect.


So recharge from any source no longer has an effect on the Volcanic Geyser powers. A bit of a bummer, but not entirely unexpected.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherby Goode View Post
Singularity and Jack are terribad at stacking mez reliably. Jack because of poor attack cycling once the sword is out and Singy because of the unusually long cycle time on his Gravity Distortion power.
According to Red Tomax, Singie's GD is 8 seconds. Singie is actually the only controller pet that has decent recharge on its control, because that's Grav's shtick. Grav gives up some direct control and gets damage, then gets a pet that does a bunch of controlling for you.

Actually, the full stats are that by default, it can easily stack Mag 6, without any slotting. With full mez slotting, it can easily add an extra Mag 12 as it will last 37-ish seconds, along with its own Containment chances. The only reason it seems to have bad mez-stacking is that it doesn't have animation differences for the powers on itself. They all have a pulse. Against a single hard-target, Singie is like having half a controller with you (because it no longer takes recharge).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
Apostrophe guidelines.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx View Post
According to Red Tomax, Singie's GD is 8 seconds. Singie is actually the only controller pet that has decent recharge on its control, because that's Grav's shtick. Grav gives up some direct control and gets damage, then gets a pet that does a bunch of controlling for you.

Actually, the full stats are that by default, it can easily stack Mag 6, without any slotting. With full mez slotting, it can easily add an extra Mag 12 as it will last 37-ish seconds, along with its own Containment chances. The only reason it seems to have bad mez-stacking is that it doesn't have animation differences for the powers on itself. They all have a pulse. Against a single hard-target, Singie is like having half a controller with you (because it no longer takes recharge).
The actual Cycle on Singy's GD is 11.3s (because you have to take the activation into account). So Singy can stack about 9 mags under ideal conditions.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherby Goode View Post
The actual Cycle on Singy's GD is 11.3s (because you have to take the activation into account). So Singy can stack about 9 mags under ideal conditions.
Valid point, but that's still going to punch up Grav's chances of pulling this off. It'll need a little help from secondary/APP, but it can probably be done in a mega-recharge build.

According to my quick & dirty calculations, between GD from the player and GD from Singie, we already get to mag 30 before any global recharge. At perma-hasten, we're at about mag 42, assuming no misses, of course. This is before considering anything from secondaries or APPs. I think a Grav/Cold would be capable of it on a perma-hasten build, though that would depend on how heavily AVs resist -mez resist.....

Quickie build:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Gravity Control
Secondary Power Set: Cold Domination
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Crush -- GravAnch-Immob:50(A), GravAnch-Hold%:50(3), GravAnch-Immob/Rchg:50(3), GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg:50(5), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx:50(5)
Level 1: Infrigidate -- AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb:35(A), ShldBrk-Acc/DefDeb:30(33), Achilles-ResDeb%:20(34)
Level 2: Gravity Distortion -- UbrkCons-Hold:50(A), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg:50(9), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg:50(9), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold:50(11), UbrkCons-Dam%:50(11)
Level 4: Ice Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(A), DefBuff-I:35(43), DefBuff-I:35(43), DefBuff-I:35(46)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(7), RechRdx-I:50(7)
Level 8: Lift -- Apoc-Dmg:50(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(13), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(13), Apoc-Acc/Rchg:50(15), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(15)
Level 10: Glacial Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(A), DefBuff-I:35(46), DefBuff-I:35(46), DefBuff-I:35(50)
Level 12: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 14: Health -- Heal-I:35(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:35(17), Numna-Heal:35(17)
Level 16: Frostwork -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:35(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:35(23), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:35(25), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:35(25), Dct'dW-Heal:35(31)
Level 18: Gravity Distortion Field -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold:30(A), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:30(19), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold:30(19), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:30(21)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I:35(A), EndMod-I:35(21), EndMod-I:35(23)
Level 22: Arctic Fog -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(A)
Level 24: Snow Storm -- TmpRdns-Acc/Slow:35(A), TmpRdns-Dmg/Slow:35(34), TmpRdns-Acc/EndRdx:35(37), TmpRdns-Rng/Slow:35(37), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow:35(40)
Level 26: Wormhole -- Amaze-Stun:50(A), Amaze-Stun/Rchg:50(27), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg:50(27), Amaze-Acc/Rchg:50(31), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun:50(31)
Level 28: Benumb -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(29), RechRdx-I:50(29), RechRdx-I:50(34), RechRdx-I:50(48)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(A)
Level 32: Singularity -- HO:Endo(A), HO:Endo(33), HO:Endo(33)
Level 35: Sleet -- Ragnrk-Dmg:50(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg:50(36), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(36), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg:50(36), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(37)
Level 38: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod:35(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:35(39), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:35(39), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:35(39), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:35(40), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:35(40)
Level 41: Hurl Boulder -- Entrpc-Acc/Dmg:35(A), Entrpc-Dmg/EndRdx:35(42), Entrpc-Dmg/Rchg:35(42), Entrpc-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(42), Entrpc-Heal%:35(43)
Level 44: Seismic Smash -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold:30(A), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold:30(45), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:30(45), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:30(45)
Level 47: Rock Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(A), HO:Cyto(48), HO:Cyto(48)
Level 49: Tactics -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(50), HO:Cyto(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
  • 6.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
  • 6.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
  • 6.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
  • 6.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
  • 6.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
  • 6.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
  • 6.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
  • 6.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
  • 5% Defense(Energy)
  • 5% Defense(Negative)
  • 2.5% Defense(Ranged)
  • 3.15% Max End
  • 1.5% Enhancement(JumpSpeed)
  • 4% Enhancement(Heal)
  • 122.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
  • 1.5% Enhancement(FlySpeed)
  • 1.5% Enhancement(JumpHeight)
  • 1.5% Enhancement(RunSpeed)
  • 60% Enhancement(Accuracy)
  • 42 HP (4.13%) HitPoints
  • MezResist(Confused) 2.75%
  • MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%
  • 23% (0.38 End/sec) Recovery
  • 48% (2.04 HP/sec) Regeneration
  • 11.3% Resistance(Fire)
  • 11.3% Resistance(Cold)
------------
Set Bonuses:
Gravitational Anchor
(Crush)
  • 4% (0.07 End/sec) Recovery
  • 2.52% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
  • 15% Enhancement(Accuracy)
  • 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Unbreakable Constraint
(Gravity Distortion)
  • 4% (0.07 End/sec) Recovery
  • 2.52% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
  • 15% Enhancement(Accuracy)
  • 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Luck of the Gambler
(Ice Shield)
  • 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Apocalypse
(Lift)
  • 16% (0.68 HP/sec) Regeneration
  • 30.5 HP (3%) HitPoints
  • 4% DamageBuff(All)
  • 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Luck of the Gambler
(Glacial Shield)
  • 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Numina's Convalescence
(Health)
  • 12% (0.51 HP/sec) Regeneration
Doctored Wounds
(Frostwork)
  • MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%
  • 1.26% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
  • 4% Enhancement(Heal)
  • 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Basilisk's Gaze
(Gravity Distortion Field)
  • 2.5% Defense(Energy,Negative), 1.25% Defense(Ranged)
  • 2% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery
  • 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Luck of the Gambler
(Arctic Fog)
  • 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Tempered Readiness
(Snow Storm)
  • 1.5% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery
  • 1.5% Enhancement(Slow)
  • 0.9% Max End
  • 3.75% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Absolute Amazement
(Wormhole)
  • 4% (0.07 End/sec) Recovery
  • 2.52% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
  • 15% Enhancement(Accuracy)
  • 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Luck of the Gambler
(Maneuvers)
  • 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Ragnarok
(Sleet)
  • 4% (0.07 End/sec) Recovery
  • 2.52% Resistance(Fire,Cold)
  • 15% Enhancement(Accuracy)
  • 10% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Efficacy Adaptor
(Heat Loss)
  • 11.4 HP (1.13%) HitPoints
  • 1.5% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery
  • 10% (0.42 HP/sec) Regeneration
  • 2.5% DamageBuff(All)
  • 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Entropic Chaos
(Hurl Boulder)
  • 10% (0.42 HP/sec) Regeneration
  • MezResist(Confused) 2.75%
  • 2.25% Max End
  • 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Basilisk's Gaze
(Seismic Smash)
  • 2.5% Defense(Energy,Negative), 1.25% Defense(Ranged)
  • 2% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery
  • 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
Luck of the Gambler
(Rock Armor)
  • 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)



Code:
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Perma-hasten, 2 seconds of downtime (for animation) on Benumb. It takes purples, and 5 LotGs, but that's what I can come up with while waiting for registration to open for next semester.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
Apostrophe guidelines.

 

Posted

So I mainly just lurk, but felt I should stop to crush your drea - er, to point out that this defender guide says that Benumb doesn't affect purple triangles (under "Benumb mechanics"). No idea where that info comes from, but it's there.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spruce View Post
So I mainly just lurk, but felt I should stop to crush your drea - er, to point out that this defender guide says that Benumb doesn't affect purple triangles (under "Benumb mechanics"). No idea where that info comes from, but it's there.
Benumb doesn't affect Purple Triangles, it affects mez resistance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
Apostrophe guidelines.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx View Post
Benumb doesn't affect Purple Triangles, it affects mez resistance.
Is the -mez resistance resisted? I would test it if I had a /cold anything at high enough levels. If someone would kindly do so it would be appreciated.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketch View Post
Is the -mez resistance resisted? I would test it if I had a /cold anything at high enough levels. If someone would kindly do so it would be appreciated.
Resistance resists resistable resistance debuffs.


It doesn't matter if it is Damage Res, Recharge Res, or Mez Res.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx View Post
Benumb doesn't affect Purple Triangles, it affects mez resistance.
*facepalm* my reading comprehender is broken. My bad.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherby Goode View Post
Resistance resists resistable resistance debuffs.


It doesn't matter if it is Damage Res, Recharge Res, or Mez Res.
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

So let's take a level 52 AV as an example.

A controller's Benumb has values of 93.13% for everything except -damage, but I'm only interested in the -mez resist. A level 52 AV would resist 86% of the debuff reducing it to a 13.04% -mez resist. That would be further reduced by level scaling another 20% resulting in a debuff of only 10.43%.

Correct me if I'm wrong (because I'm definitely not certain on the mechanics of it), but AV's begin with mez resistance of 100%, which is functionally only 90% due to the cap. So even a single Benumb would only reduce the resistance to 89.57%, less than half a percentage change in effectiveness.

So I placed my bets on the wrong pony? And/or am I completely off in my understanding of these mechanics?

 

Posted

I don't think that AVs inherently resist mez resistance debuffs. According to the wiki page, AV resistance covers -runSpeed, -recharge, -endurance, -tohit, -defense, -perception, -regeneration, and -recovery. No mention there of resistance to mez resistance debuffs, so that 86% shouldn't apply. The level scaling should, but not the inherent AV debuff resistance.

And I've never heard of AVs having inherent 100% mez resistance. As far as I know, AVs scaled down to EBs keep all their abilites - just losing the extra HP/damage/etc. I've fought plenty of PToD EBs on my dom, and I have a feeling I'd have noticed them having 90% mez resist. After all, I can hold them whenever the triangles are down, and I wouldn't have been able to do that with half duration holds, given that I need to stack 3 of them.

As far as I understand things, the AV in your example should have ended up with -74.5% mez resistance. Of course, I'm no more sure that I'm right than you are. Someone needs to test this stuff.

@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.

This is what it means to be a tank!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketch View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong (because I'm definitely not certain on the mechanics of it), but AV's begin with mez resistance of 100%, which is functionally only 90% due to the cap. So even a single Benumb would only reduce the resistance to 89.57%, less than half a percentage change in effectiveness.
Ahaha, I feel pretty silly about this one. I was reading the data from the power analyzer. It reads to the affect of "Hold Resistance: 100% duration" meaning, of course, that the hold will have 100% of its duration. Just a little hiccup in my brain.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino View Post
I don't think that AVs inherently resist mez resistance debuffs. According to the wiki page, AV resistance covers -runSpeed, -recharge, -endurance, -tohit, -defense, -perception, -regeneration, and -recovery. No mention there of resistance to mez resistance debuffs, so that 86% shouldn't apply. The level scaling should, but not the inherent AV debuff resistance.

And I've never heard of AVs having inherent 100% mez resistance. As far as I know, AVs scaled down to EBs keep all their abilites - just losing the extra HP/damage/etc. I've fought plenty of PToD EBs on my dom, and I have a feeling I'd have noticed them having 90% mez resist. After all, I can hold them whenever the triangles are down, and I wouldn't have been able to do that with half duration holds, given that I need to stack 3 of them.

As far as I understand things, the AV in your example should have ended up with -74.5% mez resistance. Of course, I'm no more sure that I'm right than you are. Someone needs to test this stuff.
1. There really isn't any such thing as a "purple triangle power" - its just the catch-all term for the collective protections AVs tend to have. But since they are actually created separately for each AV, its theoretically possible for the "purple triangles" to be different for different AVs. Normally, they are all very similar, but there are tiny occasional difference between them.

2. I'm unaware of a "purple triangle" that offers mez resistance, except for knockback resistance. There could be one I just don't know off the top of my head, but most I can think of do not.

3. I am aware of at least one AV that does have 100% mez resistance: Hamidon.

4. 100% mez resistance isn't a lot of protection anyway: mez is usually a duration effect, and 100% resistance for duration effects only cuts the duration in half, it doesn't offer immunity like 100% resistance to a magnitude effect does.

5. As far as I recall, the mez resistance cap for AVs is still 100%.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
1. There really isn't any such thing as a "purple triangle power"...
Not to pick nits, but saying "there isn't any such thing as an automobile" is a sorta clumsy way of saying "different automobiles get different Miles/Gallon."

Anyway, I was under the unexamined assumption they were standardized. Good to know. Are there guides or resources out there with the details per AV?

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