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Burn isn't necessarily a team based power. To get damage out of it, you need a good immobilize, AND to have that immobilize be activated when the mobs are nicely clumped around you: good luck on having that work consistently on teams. And Burn doesn't really fit the definition of a "team" powers... it's an attack. Also, it's VERY situational for a power that is supposed to be part of a set's reason for being "offensive." |
Originally Posted by Shinkada
ITT: People complain about a team-based power in a team-based game.
Burn does a huge amount of damage if an enemy is Held or Immobilized, only marginally less than Incinerate, and it's an AoE. It only has a 25s recharge, even BEFORE enhancements, but the immobilize protection lasts for 100 seconds. Additionally it's 100% fire damage, which sits nicely with Fiercy Embrace, which btw is a great power. Enhancements + Fiery Embrace + Build Up = >400% damage. You can almost hit the damage buff cap on your own as a Scrapper which absolutely no other set can do. Additionally Fiery Embrace lasts longer than Build Up, and while it has a longer recharge time, this means +recharge buffs have a much better effect on it. It's a spazzed out version of an already useful power which can stack on that original already useful power. tl;dr: Both Fiery Embrace and Burn are amazing powers, even if one of them is very situational. |
Burn should work as an attack not matter if you're on a team or solo, or if you have an immobilize. As long as it's so situational, it doesn't truly add to Fiery Aura's offense, which is purportedly why it has weaker resists, etc. Shields has the same approach, and it doesn't have powers that are wonky like this adding to its offense.
A lot of things could be done to fix it, too. It could be made into another PbAOE of some sort (heck, it could have a big DoT upon hitting to remain more similar to the original power). The fear effect could be dropped and the recharge and damage could be adjusted to a level the devs feel is a good balance point. And so on. The power was nerfed like crazy back in the day, and done so in a bad way. Burn shouldn't still be paying for being a farming power, not when there are so many ways to make it work.
Heck, that doesn't even bring up the Immobilize issue. I'm not sure why that was kept in Burn when the rest of the mez protection for Fiery Aura was moved from there.
And sorry about bringing this back a bit... I saw it and wanted to get a bit more attention/discussion going, as I can't believe there was anyone saying Burn really was okay as is.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Personally, I think burn is fine. I have it on my fire tank and brute and use it regularly. On my tank I just wait for a troller to use a immobilization power like fire cages, lay it down and watch the numbers tick away. Its also great when I get overwhelmed and need a "oh ish" button. On my brute I grabbed electrifying fences and immobilize them myself, lay down a patch and watch them burn.
I can see why people might think it's a bad power to solo with, but on teams its full of usefulness IMO.
I'm glad you can grab your pocket controller and use it all the time...
Sorry for being a bit down on that, but I hear this far too often. An attack power should not require an immobilize power. It's clunky and takes far too long. Look at other attack powers... do you see an immobilize being needed there? And especially in a similar set like Shields? No. You Shield Charge and you're done. That is good design. Requiring you to immobilize in some way just to use an attack is a terrible thing.
I'm not sure why there are no end to justifications for keeping the power semi-useful. You are not always going to be teamed with a Controller (and a Controller that knows when to immobilize to maximize your use of Burn, too). Waiting until the 40s is rather iffy to be able to use Burn on your own, too (and only on a single target lieutenant at that, if you're a Tank).
Instead, the power could be reworked to work ALL the time. Wow, what a concept that is. Sorry to be a little cranky about it... I've been grading too many papers lately, heh. But seriously, what design justification makes it okay for an attack power that is supposed to add to a set's offense to be so situational? There are far too many quid pro quos in using Burn. Make it so you can use it solo and team, without any other power prerequisites, and I doubt you're going to hear wailing and gnashing of teeth.
If you're saying it's fine now, I ask you to really, really think about it. Is it okay for an attack power to require immobilization like this? Especially when there are far less clunky solutions readily available?
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Since I5 the devs have looked at everything else but Fire Aura. Even Invulnerability, which really didn't need a rework, got one.
Fire Aura? Still ignored. |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Well, to be honest, they DID make a change to fire aura, one that was rather important given healing flames - they added slow/recharge protection to Temperature Protection. So we can't say it's been *completely* ignored.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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There's a large difference between the mez changes to equalize fire's consistency across powersets, and buffing the recharge time on healing flames, and the type of rework other sets have gotten. Again, to harp on the Invuln rework, the conceptual idea of how the class worked was examined. E.G. the defense debuff on Unyielding was taken off and debuff resists added to Resist Physical Damage, Tough Hide, and Resist Energies. Invuln went from one of the strongest tanking sets... to still being on of the strong tanking sets, and a great scrapping set. Much like SR, it wasn't so much that it had high defenses (it really doesn't), but even Cimerorans will have issues trying to take defense you do have... away. |
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
They also increased the recharge speed of Healing Flames "Since I5".
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Yeah, Fire aura works better if you add in a Winters Gift Proc, slot for recharge, and keep Healing Flames on auto. Really then, as I've said before, I'm often faced with the choice of either taunting and keep the team alive, or healing and keeping myself alive.
On the other paw, I'll be the first in line to admit that I'm just rather bitter over how Fire Aura has been handled. So maybe everything I say on it should be taken with a barrel of salt.
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God forbid I expect outside help in the form of a team member in a MMO...|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I'm glad you can grab your pocket controller and use it all the time...
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It seems like people look at everything that isn't great and forget about the good aspects of a power. I use burn to my advantage and make it work for me rather than cry about how a perfectly functional power is broken. If there was a power I would want looked at in FA it would be the tier 9 or a shorter recharge on FE and consume. Burn works fine for me. What you think a power should do doesn't make me or anyone else wrong. It's called opinions, we all have them.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Instead, the power could be reworked to work ALL the time. Wow, what a concept that is. Sorry to be a little cranky about it... I've been grading too many papers lately, heh. But seriously, what design justification makes it okay for an attack power that is supposed to add to a set's offense to be so situational?
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Because, after all, every fire tank is issued a controller JUST for them with an AOE immob. Oh, wait, they're not? You can't guarantee there'll be one short of dual-boxing yourself?|
Originally Posted by SmegHead
God forbid I expect outside help in the form of a team member in a MMO...
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| <--- you the point -------------------->.
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| It seems like people look at everything that isn't great and forget about the good aspects of a power. |
It provides immob protection.
The bad:
...that isn't a toggle like every other tank's, so hope it's up. That comes later than every other tank or scrapper's, even though we face immobing enemies early.
The good:
It provides damage.
The bad:
... for the half second that enemies take to run out of it. Unless you HAPPEN to have a (non-illusion) controller on the team that has their AOE immob or hold. And they actually wait for the enemies to be bunched into a nice burn patch area instead of spread out.
The good:
It makes enemies r... oh, wait.
The bad:
It makes enemies run away from the tank or scrapper due to the fear effect.
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| Doesn't fire aura have fiery embrace and blazing aura as part of its offense? And FYI, burn isn't the only power that doesn't work "all the time". Take ice patch for instance. Lay that down then have a fire troller spread out some fire cages and see how useful that power is. Powers are situational, that's how it is. You use them to your benefit when the time is right. I wish we could all get the exact powers we want as well, but I'm realistic. Fire Aura could use some tweaks, but burn would be the last on my list. |
(Edit, because I think it needs saying - I'm not saying this from "I tried this once and hated it." I have multiple Fire/ tanks - including my namesake, at 50 and 41 - and a /Fire scrapper. I've tried to fit it in and make it work. The fear in it hobbles the rest of the set. Again, I'll be fine working with the fear, as I know some use it for mitigation, IF it went the Hot Feet route and added a slow as well.)
I've long been one of those contented folks who enjoyed Burn as more of a mitigation power than an attack, however, when I do get to fight mobs or AVs that don't run, WOW is it fun to use. That's when I feel most super.
Never argue with stupid people. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
@vanda1 and @nakoa2
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Bill already answered this quite well. You are very much missing the point. I'm glad you have found ways to leverage what is very much a fubared power. You can claim all you want, but Burn started out as an attack power... one that was altogether too strong. Rather than rebalancing the power via damage, recharge, how it applies the damage (as I am quite sure Castle would have done if he was given the job now, at least as I can tell from how he has adjusted other powers), the devs at the time give it a huge magnitude fear. That wasn't a good design choice, that was them flat out nerfing a power for farming too much. You can have the opinion that it was a correct decision, but I will flat out argue the bad logic you have in that opinion. Burn DID need to be adjusted, but not put to where it is. For years.|
Originally Posted by SmegHead
God forbid I expect outside help in the form of a team member in a MMO...
It seems like people look at everything that isn't great and forget about the good aspects of a power. I use burn to my advantage and make it work for me rather than cry about how a perfectly functional power is broken. If there was a power I would want looked at in FA it would be the tier 9 or a shorter recharge on FE and consume. Burn works fine for me. What you think a power should do doesn't make me or anyone else wrong. It's called opinions, we all have them. |
Also, you might want to be careful of using the term "crying." I had Burn on my Fire/Fire tank back in the day, as it would have been insane not to. But I did feel it was kind of lame in some situations, and never farmed with it. Heck, I soloed much of the time because of my weird gaming hours in grad school and such. When I was on teams, I rarely used it. So, I don't miss the days of farming with Burn. What I do miss is Fiery Aura working as a set: Burn is just one of the powers in need of a tweaking. Consume and FE are the other two (as you already identified).
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| Doesn't fire aura have fiery embrace and blazing aura as part of its offense? And FYI, burn isn't the only power that doesn't work "all the time". Take ice patch for instance. Lay that down then have a fire troller spread out some fire cages and see how useful that power is. Powers are situational, that's how it is. You use them to your benefit when the time is right. I wish we could all get the exact powers we want as well, but I'm realistic. Fire Aura could use some tweaks, but burn would be the last on my list. |
And as Bill said, your example involves teammates working at cross purposes, not an example of a power not working. For what Ice Patch does, it works fine. Burn is an attack. It started out that way, and still IS that way: damage is its prime reason for being. It should work reliably as an attack.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I totally see the point, I just don't agree with it. I find burn a completely useful power when I need it. I don't expect it to be useful in every single encounter, and that's what I think the problem is that people want their cake and eat it too. You expect it to be a excellent power at all times. I don't and find it extremely useful the times I do need it.
The one idea I think is good is to make it more like rain of fire and have a avoid effect instead of fear. Mobs shouldn't want to stand in a burning patch of flames, but I don't think it should send them running around like idiots. A burst effect would be too much IMO with FE and burning aura. Keep it dot and replace the fear with avoid and the power would be much more user friendly.
I like the biased good bad list as well. Let me add some good points to that list of you don't mind:
The good:
Great "oh ish" button when you get more than you can handle
Great damage for immobilized targets (and we all know imm powers are in short supply /sarcasm)
Great for targets that arent effected by the fear component
Immobilize protection
Great for stalkers in PvP (yeah I know, lol pvp)
The bad:
Refer to Bill's post
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No, I expect it to *not work against itself or the rest of my powers.* |
Originally Posted by SmegHead
I totally see the point, I just don't agree with it. I find burn a completely useful power when I need it. I don't expect it to be useful in every single encounter, and that's what I think the problem is that people want their cake and eat it too. You expect it to be a excellent power at all times. I don't and find it extremely useful the times I do need it.
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The good: Great "oh ish" button when you get more than you can handle |
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| Great damage for immobilized targets (and we all know imm powers are in short supply /sarcasm) |
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| Great for targets that arent effected by the fear component |
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| Immobilize protection |
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| Great for stalkers in PvP (yeah I know, lol pvp) |
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Isn't it ironic that an attack that's supposed to give you immobilize protection, roots you in the process. lol|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Gee, didn't I cover that? Why, yes, yes I did. Immobilize protection that lasts a short time, roots you while it fires off, comes later than every other tank's immob protection... not really a plus. Combat Jumping > Burn for Immob protection.
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But in all seriousness, my problem with FA is, why pick it over Shields? FA is supposed to kill the enemies before they kill you, but if Burn, "the set's supposed big-hitter" scatters them, than how does that make any sense. Another thing is, on big teams, everything is dead so fast, that burn is practically useless; by time u get all the baddies situated, and ready to fire off burn, the only thing left standing is a boss --> and in comes the scrapper and the blaster to finish him off before you realize it.
IMO, Shields is what FA wishes it could be.
Just like Granite is the undeniable king of survival, Fire is supposed to be the undeniable king of damage, and right now, too many other sets contest with it, and it really is a shame.
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
I *love* using Burn on my brute, but he *does* have access to an AOE immobilize, so it negates the fear effect because I immobilize the group before I burninate them. I also have AOE knockdown in Lightning Rod and Thunder Strike, which keeps them in their place if my immobilize is recharging. *laughs hysterically and runs into game to play her ele/fire brute some more*
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I think the problem is you must not know when, where or how to use the power not the power itself.| No, I expect it to *not work against itself or the rest of my powers.* |
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| As is a travel power, healing flames, etc. Of course, as they run away, they aggro on anyone else attacking them. Big plus there! </sarcasm> |
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| Again, you ignore this - how many immobilize powers does a tank have? None, generally, until their epics. You're saying "Eh, the recharge is fine - you just need someone to buff it for you!" |
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| Gee, didn't I cover that? Why, yes, yes I did. Immobilize protection that lasts a short time, roots you while it fires off, comes later than every other tank's immob protection... not really a plus. Combat Jumping > Burn for Immob protection. |
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| AOE defense. And "Gee, look, burning patch. All I have to do is wait." Hardly "great." |
You are pissing on the wheels of progress Smeg. Burn needs a Buff. End of Story.
You have nothing to lose with the fear effect being removed from Burn and the Immobile protection being placed in Plasma Shield. It increases solo efficiency which is the highest priority of an aggressive intelligent player and this change will make a FA AT perform better on teams. You shouldnt need a team to commit mass slaughter on a FA with Burn. If you are content with needing a team for Burn to work , then you probably are the type of person who should roll a Defender.
FA needs other buffs as well. Blazing Aura isnt anything special since other defense sets have damage toggles nor is Fiery Embrace unless you are a Fire Melee.
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I run multiple fire tanks. As it sits now, it's not worth the pick. |
Originally Posted by SmegHead
I think the problem is you must not know when, where or how to use the power not the power itself.
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| Ever hear of taunt? |
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| Foot stomp, fault, ice patch... shall I continue? And I don't know about you but when I team there is usually a AT with immobilize. Again you ignore the fact that a lot of people like to team in this game and rely on teammates for support in some way shape or form. |
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| I wont argue that cj is better, but not everyone wants to loose a power pool choice just for cj. |
And what power can potentially be picked to open up that very pool? Hmm... look at that.
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| You must not "lol pvp" much. Burn is extremely useful against stalkers. As far as AoE defense, the AoE damage from burn ticks so often that it'll rip through elude like it wasn't there. |
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I'm glad to hear your opinion on this matter. In mine it totally is worth the power pick for reason stated in previous posts.| I run multiple fire tanks. As it sits now, it's not worth the pick. |
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| Ever hear of not having them scatter in the first place? |
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| Again, not everybody carries a pocket controller around. Footstop, fault, and ice patch are also not immobilized, btw. I am not "ignoring the fact a lot of people like to team," sparky, YOU seem to be ignoring that you cannot guarantee somoene will have an immobilize, or use it in a way that actually helps you. |
And yes I know they aren't imm powers, but they all keep the baddies in your patch, some even cancel out the fear effect. The point I was trying to make is that if you think outside the box the power can be useful with more than just imm powers.
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Most people will try to pick up a travel power anyway, and many times a Fire (and Dark) tank will see "Hmm, acrobatics - KB protection without hoping for an IO!" - Acro's been a part of Fire tank builds for a long, long time. And what power can potentially be picked to open up that very pool? Hmm... look at that. |
Also a long long time ago FA was a different beast. Its been changed since then. Healing flames was buffed as well as temp protection. Its lack of damage output from the nerf was made up for by the buffs to these powers. Yeah it isn't enough, but its other aspects of the set that the devs need to focus on, not burn IMO.
What I'm saying is it give players options. From my standpoint that's a good thing. I wouldn't be opposed to putting the imm power into one of the shields or toning down the fear effect. But the dev's put it there for a reason and so far I haven't heard a option that would change the power to something I would like better than what I already have now. If I wanted a burst damage type power, I'll roll a shield tank (like I did). Leave us options, don't start cloning things from one set because its good on another.
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| Against lousy stalkers, perhaps. Then again, PVP is so dead in this game the point, quite frankly, is moot - and that's coming from someone who tries to encourage others to get into it. (See also intro guide in sig.) |
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Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
To sum it up, it sucks. The enemies both high ranking and low leave the burn patch and scatter before 3 ticks of damage making it a worthless attack power unless you have other tools or other players to force the enemies in place.
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- It's in a mitigation set, and it mitigates.
- If you do have teammates who can help you capitalise on it, it's a truly insane source of damage.
- Fear-immune baddies, like AVs, stand in it like dinguses.
- It was changed because it was overpowered and has remained in its current state unchanged for years.
- It wasn't changed when it was ported to scrappers.
- Archetypes that solo AVs tend not to get buffed.
- I counter your 'it sucks' with 'so ner.'
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How many KB powers work against THEMSELVES? You seem to have a horrid time trying to grasp this concept, apparently. An Energy Blaster (for instance) whose powers do knockback don't prevent that same power from doing ALL its damage or keep the blaster from doing their job. They don't need to hope someone else on the team is a certain AT to let the power "finish" working. |
Originally Posted by SmegHead
It reminds me of powers that kb and people that cant stand them, yet others love them.
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| Also a long long time ago FA was a different beast. Its been changed since then. Healing flames was buffed as well as temp protection. Its lack of damage output from the nerf was made up for by the buffs to these powers. Yeah it isn't enough, but its other aspects of the set that the devs need to focus on, not burn IMO. |
When and why was Burn changed?
Is the issue that led to Burn being changed (being given the fear/scatter effect) an issue any more? Followup: Is that issue because of burn being changed, rather hamfistedly I might add, or because the rest of the game changed?
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| Now its lousy stalkers and pvp isn't worthwhile? |
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| Like I said before, I'm glad you have your opinion, but I like PvP even though its a shell of its former self. |
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| I play stalkers and I don't find them to be lousy at all. |
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| I can see why you would think its moot from your view on PvP (as well as most of the people that play this game) but I don't. |
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I don't understand how you don't see how negative your post came across about pvp as well as the stalker reference being a bit vague, but since you're so full of personal attacks and seem to be completely unable to grasp my points I'll skip my replies for someone that's worth them. Try to lighten up a little and figure out how to be constructive without being so defensive. Good day to you sir.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
How many KB powers work against THEMSELVES? You seem to have a horrid time trying to grasp this concept, apparently. An Energy Blaster (for instance) whose powers do knockback don't prevent that same power from doing ALL its damage or keep the blaster from doing their job. They don't need to hope someone else on the team is a certain AT to let the power "finish" working.
Look up the answers for these - I do already know the answers, this is not an "I need the information" set of questions. When and why was Burn changed? Is the issue that led to Burn being changed (being given the fear/scatter effect) an issue any more? Followup: Is that issue because of burn being changed, rather hamfistedly I might add, or because the rest of the game changed? Yeah, obvioustly it's so "not worthwhile" that I try to get more people into it... wait, that makes as much sense as "Here's a power that works against itself!" I can, however, honestly say there's little interest in it. Never has been. I can wander in the zones for a long time without seeing another person - of *either* faction - and when I do see them, they usually want to do their own thing, not PVP. And Arena activity? What arena activity? I wouldn't be trying to get people into it if I didn't. Did you LOOK at what I mentioned? Obviously not. Did you even read what you quoted, in full? The "And that's from someone who tries to get others into it" bit? Reading comprehension tip: "Lousy stalkers" = "Stalkers who are lousy." Not "Stalkers as a whole are lousy." I happen to play them as well. Your reading comprehension is awful if you think my "view on PVP" is negative (with anything but population.) Just like a power that works against itself! |
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"And that's from someone who tries to get others into it." PVP in this game is dead. That's not "being negative," that's a (very widely agreed with) observation. |
Originally Posted by SmegHead
I don't understand how you don't see how negative your post came across about pvp
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| as well as the stalker reference being a bit vague, |
"Against lousy stalkers."
Hmm, sounds like I'm talking about stalkers that *aren't very good* there, not the AT as a whole.
I think, frankly, you're *trying* to find things to misread and be offended about.
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Think? I came to that conclusion back on page 2.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
"Against stalkers!"
"Against lousy stalkers." Hmm, sounds like I'm talking about stalkers that *aren't very good* there, not the AT as a whole. I think, frankly, you're *trying* to find things to misread and be offended about. |
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Yes I was extremely offended. Isn't it obvious from my posts? Complete and total nerd rage. Next time I'll try and keep my cool. /sarcasm|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Think? I came to that conclusion back on page 2.
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Funny how when someone doesn't agree with the majority this kind of stuff happens.
I like burn, leave it the way it is. Nuff said.
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However, the game ITSELF has changed - to the point where the original issues that LED to this hamfisted nerf don't exist any more. It now has a (5 target!) cap, and caps were introduced to most other power classes (including taunt.) We have ED. We can't have the insane stacking that we used to (excuse me while I herd Perez into this dumpster.) |
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
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Plus, of course, "for years" the game had what was in essence a maintenance crew - 15 people to do everything. So many things remained unchanged "for years" - some mentioned in this very thread (healing flames, temperature protection.) Many things that have been unchanged "for years" are getting looked at *because they can now,* from powers to entire ATs (see also Dom buff.) Effort is being focused on GR, of course, ATM - but don't think they don't have a laundry list of other things to address.
"This power has been like this for years" isn't really a strong point to make in its favor. If anything, given the major game changes SINCE this change was made, it's more of a reason to revisit it.
The problem is that Burn was the weapon of choice for PLing and farming way back when. However this was back before the aggro limit of 17 and ED; those two nerfs alone turned Burn into a ghost of its former self, so I'm not sure why they messed with the damage, recharge, AND scatter effect. Lingering bitterness?
(I kid, I kid!)
Nowadays I run an SS/fire brute, allowing me to immobilize spawns with my patron power so they stay in the Burn patch and die like the good old days. But even with my IOs and Rage stacked up Burn really isn't all that impressive. In fact unless the mobs are packed up tight I tend not to use it, just because I hate chasing down stragglers (that 5% miss chance adds up over the course of an entire map). The question for me is always "will chasing after one or two panicked mobs take more time than waiting for Foot Stomp to come back?" Very often the answer seems to be yes.
I wholeheartedly agree that Immobilize protection needs to be in a toggle, not in Burn. Fire is already a weak tanking set, and if a team tank gets immobilized at the wrong time it can cause real trouble. After all, the scatter effect makes it easier for the tank to lose aggro, but being stuck in one spot could do the same if mobs are out of melee/taunt range. SHOULD that happen? No, of course not. But I'm all for making fiery aura PuG-friendly!
As far is Burn is concerned, I really like the knockback idea posted earlier. Make it do a respectable chunk of damage (perhaps 4 ticks of damage over time?) and give it a knockdown effect. Lose the fear and keep the recharge rate near where it is (it's still a longer cooldown than similar powers like Fault, Foot Stomp, and Frozen Aura). This way Burn will do less damage than it does now, but will make fire tanks a bit tougher via an offensive form of mitigation (knockdown + damage). And my brute will use it too!