Ice Controllers Without Arctic Air

I know I'm the bad guy, but I often skip Arctic Air. I have had it in my builds before. It is a good power. I just dont enjoy playing with it. I dont enjoy thinking that way. I have an Ice/Storm (50) controller, and I'm in melee 90% of the time (I like to stack Thunder Clap, and I do a lot with Hurricane). I even have plenty of endurance to spare (25% or more to recovery from set bonuses, stamina, end proc in stamina, miracle, numina).

I simply dont enjoy the power that much. So, I dont use it.

My Ice/Kin (43) has it, and uses it, but only because I feel I "have to" on that build. My Ice/Empathy (37) does not use it. I seem to get by just fine. Would it be better if I had AA? Sure. Except I wouldnt be having fun. I just dont like manipulating foes that way.

Lewis
/call me stupid if you must

I have 2 ice controllers now. Whether they've got AA or not depends on my likely favoured position and that can be partly determined by my secondary.

Long lengthy reply lost by bad internet connection.

tl;dr version: Plenty of ways to play controllers from range effectively. To think otherwise is being narrow minded, much like saying Tankers must take Taunt.

I like AA fine, but can go through any number of missions w/o every turning it on, and wouldn't miss it. In fact, if I'm doing most of the damage (happens a lot w/Storm), AA's mostly an end drain I don't need.

Finally, AA + Hurricane (Ice/Storm being a popular combo) can play well together, but takes skill and situational awareness, lacking in a lot of ppl.

Not to get into that debate again, but yes, enjoyment > all else, just so long as you realize that, as the team leader, my enjoyment stems from taking down mobs as quickly as possible. If I believe that your enjoyment is hampering my enjoyment, I will politely explain this and then ask you to leave my team with no hard feelings. Most of the time, an Ice Controller not running Arctic Air will not significantly impede my enjoyment, but, should I feel that it does, I reserve the right to remove that Ice Controller from the team. I have kicked Stormies, though, for spamming knockback even when politely asked to not do so. MOVING ON.

I think the claim that Ice Controllers are the lowest-damaging controllers needs to be re-addressed. In making the climb, I won't disagree that Ice Controllers lack significant damage. My Ice/Kin, though, farms at a reasonable clip, thanks in part to Arctic Air. Even without Frostbite --> Fulcrum Shift --> Fissure, I can watch opponents die just by sitting in the spawn with Arctic Air on.

Disclaimer: Normal group settings apply, assuming a 5-8 man team tackling a full mob. I fully realize that Ice is lacking in single-target damage, though my Ice/Kin can and has solo'd AVs. It just takes patience. A lot of patience.

At this point, I'm reasonably certain that the lowest-damage Controller build is actually Earth, which has comparable single-target damage to Ice but no AoE damage at all (aside from Stalagmites, the AoE immobilize that does the same amount of damage as Ice's Frostbite). It is arguable, actually, the Earth's damage is lower than Ice from the get-go, as Ice can contribute to team damage through Arctic Air even without the Contagious Confusion proc. Earth has even more limited AoE options. Volcanic Gasses can contribute on occasion, but the recharge time on that power is so severely restricting that it does not make a substantial increase in DPS. The -defense is really the only thing that Earth has going for it, but that goes away in the SO levels when you not only get Accuracy SO/IOs but also tend to pick up or at least have a teammate with Tactics. Honestly, how often do any of you miss, out there? In comparing pets, Animate Stone does more damage than Jack, but not enough to make up for the large difference in AoE potential.

After that, I would argue that Gravity, while certainly beating Ice in the single-target damage department, once again has no significant AoE damage to bring it on par with an Ice Controller properly utilizing Arctic Air. As nice as Lift and Propel are, their single-target nature cannot allow them to compare to the AoE damage nor the endurance efficiency of Arctic Air. Unslotted and immediately activated upon recharge, Lift is a 1.16 end/sec power, while AA is a 1.04 end/sec power. Lift would deal 4 dmg/sec. While I don't have the damage numbers on AA (rather difficult to calculate, all things considered), I am sure they are considerably higher when accounting for their AoE nature. The single target efficacy of Grav is further mitigated when playing on a high-recharge Ice toon (such as Kin or Rad), which can spam Chillblain/Block of Ice far more quickly than a Grav toon can spam Lift/Propel. Singularity, while arguably a better pet overall than Jack, does not do as much damage as Jack.

Mind is also among the low-damage Controllers, because it largely falls into the same problem as Grav in that it is a single-target set. Yes, it has Terrify, but while both having a decent AoE-damage ability and being fully capable of dealing out single-target devastation with Mesmerize and Levitate, Mind has no strong method for establishing Containment and thus cannot synergize well with high-damage AoEs available in three of the five Ancillaries. Ice can. Oh, and Mass Confusion wishes it was Arctic Air. Also, no pet.

I would put Ice above Illusion, actually. In an 8-man spawn, you can expect to have roughly five enemies confused at a time, unslotted for confusion duration. Unslotted, an Illusion Controller averages 3.5 pets. When decked out with IOs, Illusion can keep out five pets, while Ice has the entire spawn confused. While the Illusion pets are more accurate and likely doing more damage per entity, and while Ice's pets tend to stop contributing damage when they die, Illusion suffers from the same problem as Mind in that it doesn't have a reliable way to set up Containment and therefore cannot synergize well with the AoE damage abilities available in the Ancillaries.

Ice is definitely below Plant and Fire, though. While Arctic Air actually does comparable damage to Hot Feet (Arctic Air doing more damage in burst, Hot Feet doing damage consistently), Imps are more damaging than Jack. Plant has Seeds of Confusion, which may be the best power in the game, as well as Carrion Creepers and Roots. Fly Trap also probably does more damage than Jack.

I'd put the hierarchy like this, then.

Earth
Gravity
Mind
Illusion
Ice
Plant/Fire (I actually think that Plant may do more damage, but that Fire/Kins are more popular because they require less buttons and a lower brain-thinky score).

The big thing that Ice has going against it is that the majority of its damage is confusion-based, which means that the party is getting reduced exp when compared to an actual AoE damage blast that could contribute the same thing. Plant and Mind suffer from this, as well.

I'd love to get a friend with a Fire/Kin to help me test Fire Cages + Hot Feet versus Frostbite + Arctic Air. I think that the Slow component from Arctic Air will cause a massive burst of front-end damage from AA but an eventually victory by the slow-but-steady Hot Feet. Though burst, though, is more useful in groups than a DoT.

TL;DR: Ice is not the lowest-damaging Controller primary. It is arguably in the top 50% of damaging primaries.

Thanks for the comments guys. I have a few assorted replies below.

RE: Ice as a heavy damage powerset at higher levels.

I agree in theory. Ice can deliver a heck of a punch once it reaches maturity.

Ice does have a challenge though. It has to endure significant amounts of return fire in order to use AA as a damage power. The confuse in AA is not reliable, and there is no way to ensure bosses in the stack are taken care of (not an issue on lt-only farms). This means that Ice normally has to combine AA with Ice Slick and (when enemies are a few levels higher than you) Shiver in order to survive the coming onslaught. Achieving containment cancels the knockdown effect, making it a gamble.

In controlled circumstances, though, where the character is built for farming a very specific type of enemy, it could work well. Particularly I am thinking of Ice/Cold/Fire. The -Resistance in Sleet would increase damage, the AoE immob would keep them from falling, the cold shields would protect the pet, and between Consume and Heat Loss your endurance bar should be overflowing. A total jackpot would be finding an enemy that does s/l damage and has natural recharge resistance. That may be quite a challenge. Ice/Kinetics would also be monsterous, as you said.

Truth. Only if you have some other method of damage mitigation can Ice truly shine as a damage dealer. I am speculating upon Ice in a vacuum in which it cannot take damage. In such a situation, Ice can shine over even Illusion as far as damage is concerned. When thrown into a real situation, however, Ice has a choice between Lockdown or Damage. It cannot have it both ways, as Fire can occasionally (via Flashfire) or Plant can for most spawns (via Seeds of Confusion). Ice is either a Lockdown build or it is a damage build. It cannot be both.

It doesn't just have to be in controlled circumstances, though. So long as you have maxed Range defense (and, to a lesser extent, max Aoe), you can do this in uncontrolled environments (I agree, though, that the easiest way to accomplish this is to max S/L defense and to control for bosses. It is with a build like this that I am testing this theory [against Council], though I intend on maxing Range/AoE defense and testing in non-controlled environments).

That said, if you spec Ice/Kin/Fire or Ice/Cold/Fire a certain way, you can use set bonuses plus Maneuvers/Weave/Combat Jumping to obtain the soft defense cap for at least range and possibly AoE (I know /Kin can do both by slotting Zephyrs in CJ/SJ/SS/Speed Boost/Inertial Reduction, but I have yet to attempt a /Cold build that can also do this), and therefore personally take a very small amount of damage in the vast majority of situations, which would then allow one to use Arctic Air as a damage power instead of a mitigation power. Arctic Air's "Afraid" component thus actually works to your advantage, as it removes threats that would deal melee damage and thus bypass your range/AoE defense. Such a build would have to be willing to give up the other forms of mitigation that Ice offers, but could still theoretically take Ice Slick for adds. Keep in mind, though, that the ultimate mitigation is a dead opponent.

All that said, if one decides to mitigate even a small amount of damage via control or debuff, one then -also- mitigates Ice Control's damage potential via Arctic Air. It's the main reason that I'm thinking that Ice/Kin/Fire would be a better farmer than Ice/Kin/Stone, as //Stone's Fissure greatly disrupts the damage output of Arctic Air.

In any case, damage mitigation for such a build should come from buffs, not controls and not debuffs. Should controls and debuffs exist, then Ice's damage will fall relative to other sets, though at minimum it will almost definitely contribute more damage than an Earth or Mind Controller (AA and Containment, respectively), and possibly more damage than an Illusion Controller (due mostly to Containment and less to AA). Grav may be able to at least equal if not outperform Ice when such debuffs are present (due to excellent single-target damage plus the ability for consistent Containment).

If I do decide to write my guide to Ice Control, Arctic Air will almost certainly be the linchpin. Depending on how you want to use it, you can create a lockdown build -or- a damage build, but not both. With all of the toggles, Ice/Rad would be a ridiculously awesome soft-control lockdown build, while Ice/Kin or Ice/Cold could substantially contribute towards a team's damage.

It creates a sort of binary methodology towards the Ice Controller. One can choose damage or defense, but not both. I like it, as it contributes to the versatility of the set and creates different situations in which different combinations could excel. Based on what you want, I think Arctic Air synergizes in the following ways.

Arctic Air lockdown synergy (+lockdown, -damage):

Radiation (toggle lockdown: AA, CC, EF, RI. Can deal significant damage through procs.)
Trick Arrow (all around debuffs + confusion/slow)
Storm (added knockback creates lockdown mitigation but removes damage, -to-hit on top of confusion for lockdown, Freezing Rain -def, -res contributes to AA damage when confused enemies actually hit)

Arctic Air neutral synergy:

Force Field (doesn't effect enemies in any way aside from occasional and usually unused knockdown)
Empathy (doesn't effect enemies in any way)

Arctic Air damage synergy (+damage, -lockdown):

Thermal Armor: (Arguably the best synergy with AA. Melt Armor = -def, -res)
Sonic (also pretty good from an AA perspective, as the only debuff provided is -res)
Cold (slows make confusion less valuable, though -def and -res from Sleet are good)
Kinetics (-damage from Fulcrum Shift makes confusion less valuable though adds damage to Ancillaries)

In any case, I would agree that the damage in Ice Control comes at the price of the sacrifice of most other forms of mitigation available to the Ice Controller. However, Arctic Air mitigates a strong amount of damage on its own. With 60% (more with Contagious Confusion) of the mob confused at any point during the fight and with the entire mod slowed, most incoming damage shouldn't substantially impact the team.

TL;DR: The damage output of an Ice Controller depends on how you implement Arctic Air. How you implement Arctic Air largely depends upon your secondary.

I'm excited that someone is writing a new guide.

For kicks I just rolled a new Ice/Radiation troller and took him through the sewers. I picked up Arctic Air at level 6 and by level 10 had 5 slots in it, all endurance reduction.

The result? First, people asking "who keeps confusing the mobs?" And then one of the tankers got upset because he said I was outtanking him. I was easily keeping one half to one third of the mob confused. Added on top of the slow and on top of the fear effect I'm quite sure this is the most effective level 10 Controller possible.

That's not good enough? Well I'm now reasonably certain AA also auto-interupts interuptible powers. Those exploding Vazhilok zombies would run into range, start their animation, stand up again, start again, etc. I will need to test this some more to see if its true.

BTW, Ice/FF and Ice/Sonic have considerable synergy as both of them patch Ice's major weakness, which is getting mezzed. If you could solve Sonic's endurance issues and find a way to self heal, it would be a great pairing. Force Field is great with anything, but especially with Ice, because the FF has very low slotting requirements, which allows you to 6 slot everything else with no loss in effectiveness.

I wasn't really saying anything about overall synergy so much as I was about direct synergy between Arctic Air and different secondaries. I'll agree with you that /Son and /FF cover a significant hole in Ice Control, though. I just don't think that they synergize well with AA, aside from the fact that you very rarely have to retoggle it.

Perhaps I'm looking at it in the wrong way, though.

As for your Ice/Rad, just wait until you pick up Ice Slick. The combo will get even more evil. The more and more I think about it, the more and more I come to the conclusion that Ice/Rad is actually the best lockdown Controller out there (in most situations). Hell, I can't even name another Controller that I'd rather have on AVs, either, except maybe for Ill/Rad. Lingering Radiation + Shiver spam + all of the toggles would probably floor an AVs damage potential.

To further that argument, I'd say that FF -needs- to be at range to grant mez protection to those that really need it. Ice/FF should likely be more of an Ice Slicking, Shivering kind of build than an Arctic Air kind of build.

Perhaps I should change my "neutral" synergy to "lack of" or even "negative." If I were Ice/Emp or Ice/FF, which should likely stay at range to be closer to the squishies and thus provide maximum mitigation where it will be maximally effective, I might skip out on AA. The other secondaries, though, can hang in melee rather well and thus leverage AA to its maximum potential.

Of course, there's an argument to be made that a secondary not synergizing well with AA is not a good secondary for Ice... but it's not one I'm willing to make at this time. It is a thought I'll tumble over for a little while, though, and one upon which I'll expond in the upcoming guide.