Lacrimosa
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Quote:Signature worthy.Originally Posted by brophog02
I'm just hoping these PUGs with the Empath dying enducing wipes come with a warning sign.................. -
The argument that is being made, however, is not whether an Ice Controller not weilding AA is less effective, which I believe that Memphis Bill would concede. The argument being made is really -how- less effective. I can't speak for Bill, of course, but I think he would agree with you on a vast majority of your decisions. A Kinetics user without Fulcrum Shift or a Plant Controller that skips Seeds would likely not be invited, or at least not be invited -back-, to a team. I think that 95% of the boards would agree with that.
The argument Bill is making is not that an Ice Controller is less effective without Arctic Air, but rather that the effect of Arctic Air on certain builds is far less significant than the effect of Fulcrum Shift on Kinetics. You and I disagree, Tex, but I can see his point.
It really boils down to how comfortable one feels in melee. I would argue that an Ice Controller is among the safest melee toons, secondary provided. The little damage that I take can be made up for with Kinetics. Bill, however, is arguing that, as an Empath, the risk of dying in melee (which would cause a wipe) is far greater than the net benefit provided by Arctic Air. Simple math will show his argument.
Let us assume that Ice Slick mitigates 75% of incoming damage and that Arctic Air air mitigates an additional 75% (rough figures). In this case, if Ice Slick is used first, then Arctic Air can only mitigate 75% of the remaining 25%, or, in this case, 18.75%. The rest is overlap. If Shiver by itself can mitigate half as effectively as Arctic Air and we assume AA/Shiver are mutually exclusive (which they tend to be, given that they function in different mediums), then AA only stands to mitigate about 9% of incoming damage. This is not gamebreaking. If mitigation is your only concern, are you really going to risk melee death for what can, in normal situations, easily be mitigated via healing from range?
This, of course, is only a functional equation if mitigation is one's only concern. Tex and I believe it is not, but damage is not so important for a Controller in a proper team of 8. To be honest, in a proper team, the damage provided by AA will be at best minor, as enemies will tend to be so debuffed or so dead that their damage barely contributes. At range, Bill can not only mitigate damage but also keep the team rolling via the psychological comfort created in having everyone at full health (try it sometime. Watch and see if your PUG Tank will jump into a spawn at half health the same way he would at half, regardless of his actual safety). If Bill is in the thick of things, perhaps he'll become distracted and miss something or, worse yet, die and cause meltdown for his team.
I see his argument. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. -
I'd also like to point out a minor squabble: if you're dutiful in getting your +HP accolades, you don't need a heal IO in Earth's Embrace. Give it a recharge. Better yet, give it three.
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You raise a good point, and really all I'm doing right now is throwing out ideas when they first come to my mind for the purposes of debate (without taking the time to myself carefully consider their merit). And perhaps synergy is overrated, anyways - there's something to be said for being okay at two tasks instead of great at one.
You're right in saying that Empathy doesn't synergize well with -any- Controller set. As a matter of fact, I would even argue that a Controller choosing Empathy is looking for his Controller set to synergize with Empathy and not the other way around. This may be why we see so many Illusion/Empathy Controllers, as Empathy is an extremely active defense set and Illusion is very fire-and-forget.
But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about Arctic Air, and I am once again guilty of getting off on a tangent. -
To further that argument, I'd say that FF -needs- to be at range to grant mez protection to those that really need it. Ice/FF should likely be more of an Ice Slicking, Shivering kind of build than an Arctic Air kind of build.
Perhaps I should change my "neutral" synergy to "lack of" or even "negative." If I were Ice/Emp or Ice/FF, which should likely stay at range to be closer to the squishies and thus provide maximum mitigation where it will be maximally effective, I might skip out on AA. The other secondaries, though, can hang in melee rather well and thus leverage AA to its maximum potential.
Of course, there's an argument to be made that a secondary not synergizing well with AA is not a good secondary for Ice... but it's not one I'm willing to make at this time. It is a thought I'll tumble over for a little while, though, and one upon which I'll expond in the upcoming guide. -
I wasn't really saying anything about overall synergy so much as I was about direct synergy between Arctic Air and different secondaries. I'll agree with you that /Son and /FF cover a significant hole in Ice Control, though. I just don't think that they synergize well with AA, aside from the fact that you very rarely have to retoggle it.
Perhaps I'm looking at it in the wrong way, though.
As for your Ice/Rad, just wait until you pick up Ice Slick. The combo will get even more evil. The more and more I think about it, the more and more I come to the conclusion that Ice/Rad is actually the best lockdown Controller out there (in most situations). Hell, I can't even name another Controller that I'd rather have on AVs, either, except maybe for Ill/Rad. Lingering Radiation + Shiver spam + all of the toggles would probably floor an AVs damage potential. -
Truth. Only if you have some other method of damage mitigation can Ice truly shine as a damage dealer. I am speculating upon Ice in a vacuum in which it cannot take damage. In such a situation, Ice can shine over even Illusion as far as damage is concerned. When thrown into a real situation, however, Ice has a choice between Lockdown or Damage. It cannot have it both ways, as Fire can occasionally (via Flashfire) or Plant can for most spawns (via Seeds of Confusion). Ice is either a Lockdown build or it is a damage build. It cannot be both.
It doesn't just have to be in controlled circumstances, though. So long as you have maxed Range defense (and, to a lesser extent, max Aoe), you can do this in uncontrolled environments (I agree, though, that the easiest way to accomplish this is to max S/L defense and to control for bosses. It is with a build like this that I am testing this theory [against Council], though I intend on maxing Range/AoE defense and testing in non-controlled environments).
That said, if you spec Ice/Kin/Fire or Ice/Cold/Fire a certain way, you can use set bonuses plus Maneuvers/Weave/Combat Jumping to obtain the soft defense cap for at least range and possibly AoE (I know /Kin can do both by slotting Zephyrs in CJ/SJ/SS/Speed Boost/Inertial Reduction, but I have yet to attempt a /Cold build that can also do this), and therefore personally take a very small amount of damage in the vast majority of situations, which would then allow one to use Arctic Air as a damage power instead of a mitigation power. Arctic Air's "Afraid" component thus actually works to your advantage, as it removes threats that would deal melee damage and thus bypass your range/AoE defense. Such a build would have to be willing to give up the other forms of mitigation that Ice offers, but could still theoretically take Ice Slick for adds. Keep in mind, though, that the ultimate mitigation is a dead opponent.
All that said, if one decides to mitigate even a small amount of damage via control or debuff, one then -also- mitigates Ice Control's damage potential via Arctic Air. It's the main reason that I'm thinking that Ice/Kin/Fire would be a better farmer than Ice/Kin/Stone, as //Stone's Fissure greatly disrupts the damage output of Arctic Air.
In any case, damage mitigation for such a build should come from buffs, not controls and not debuffs. Should controls and debuffs exist, then Ice's damage will fall relative to other sets, though at minimum it will almost definitely contribute more damage than an Earth or Mind Controller (AA and Containment, respectively), and possibly more damage than an Illusion Controller (due mostly to Containment and less to AA). Grav may be able to at least equal if not outperform Ice when such debuffs are present (due to excellent single-target damage plus the ability for consistent Containment).
If I do decide to write my guide to Ice Control, Arctic Air will almost certainly be the linchpin. Depending on how you want to use it, you can create a lockdown build -or- a damage build, but not both. With all of the toggles, Ice/Rad would be a ridiculously awesome soft-control lockdown build, while Ice/Kin or Ice/Cold could substantially contribute towards a team's damage.
It creates a sort of binary methodology towards the Ice Controller. One can choose damage or defense, but not both. I like it, as it contributes to the versatility of the set and creates different situations in which different combinations could excel. Based on what you want, I think Arctic Air synergizes in the following ways.
Arctic Air lockdown synergy (+lockdown, -damage):
Radiation (toggle lockdown: AA, CC, EF, RI. Can deal significant damage through procs.)
Trick Arrow (all around debuffs + confusion/slow)
Storm (added knockback creates lockdown mitigation but removes damage, -to-hit on top of confusion for lockdown, Freezing Rain -def, -res contributes to AA damage when confused enemies actually hit)
Arctic Air neutral synergy:
Force Field (doesn't effect enemies in any way aside from occasional and usually unused knockdown)
Empathy (doesn't effect enemies in any way)
Arctic Air damage synergy (+damage, -lockdown):
Thermal Armor: (Arguably the best synergy with AA. Melt Armor = -def, -res)
Sonic (also pretty good from an AA perspective, as the only debuff provided is -res)
Cold (slows make confusion less valuable, though -def and -res from Sleet are good)
Kinetics (-damage from Fulcrum Shift makes confusion less valuable though adds damage to Ancillaries)
In any case, I would agree that the damage in Ice Control comes at the price of the sacrifice of most other forms of mitigation available to the Ice Controller. However, Arctic Air mitigates a strong amount of damage on its own. With 60% (more with Contagious Confusion) of the mob confused at any point during the fight and with the entire mod slowed, most incoming damage shouldn't substantially impact the team.
TL;DR: The damage output of an Ice Controller depends on how you implement Arctic Air. How you implement Arctic Air largely depends upon your secondary. -
Quote:I'll address those generally, and then point-by-point.Originally Posted by Local_Man
Interesting argument -- don't agree with it, but an interesting argument.
Let's compare the two sets that are generally Considered to have the lowest damage, Earth and Ice. Both sets have ST (single target) Hold and Immobs that do the same damage. Contrary to the above, Frostbite and Stone Cages also do the same damage (You didn't mention Stone Cages). Quicksand and Earthquake do no damage, but Stalagmites and Volcanic Gasses do small amounts of AoE damage. Compare this to no damage from Ice Slick, Shiver or Glacier and no direct damage from AA. And Rocky pretty clearly outdamages Jack. (I don't count the Sleeps because everyone usually skips them.) So the question is whether Arctic Air outdamages Stalagmites, Volcanic Gasses and the difference between Rocky and Jack. Also, don't forget the -Defense in the Earth set -- which means that all of the Earth powers are hitting more often, adding up to more damage. Frankly, I think it is pretty difficult to come to the conclusion that Ice does more damage than Earth, especially since the foes in AA are slowed, reducing the damage they do to each other.
Grav has a lot of single-target damage, plus some minimal AoE damage. I know that I can solo my Grav/Storm faster than my Ice/Storm. That may be different when you talk about larger groups, but I think it is hard to judge the effect of Arctic Air.
I really haven't been able to compare the damage from a high level Mind controller, as my highest is 35. Terrify certainly does more direct AoE damage than anything from Ice Control. Even if Mass Confusion is on a long timer, Mind may get more damage from its AoE confuse because (a) the foes are not slowed, (b) the confuse lasts longer, and (c) Mind can add in a single target confuse to confuse a boss or more foes. Plant has less of a problem with reduced damage from confusion because of the high damage in Roots.
And I strongly disagree that Illusion does less damage than Ice. Illusion has four pets doing damage (with one of them using a cone attack), plus Blind-Spectral Wounds. And if you know how to leverage the Illusory damage to get its benefit, you get even more damage. Plus, Illusion has its own single target confuse power that can target a boss, resulting in a lot of damage done by the confused foe.
I think I stated in my argument somewhere (and if I didn't, the apologies) that Ice Control's damage is rather pathetic in the grind from 1-50, and I especially meant to accentuate pre-SO levels as problematic, damage-wise (though I definitely neglected to say this). Post-SO and especially once you can slot purples (one purple, to be precise), AAs damage clearly outclasses at least Earth and Grav.
Point-by-point, now.
Earth: I did in fact mention the -defense provided by Earth. I just pointed out that it's a relatively useless secondary effect. Post-22, almost everyone slots at least one accuracy, which is good enough to deal with most enemies. Throw even one Tactics on there, and you're hitting 95% of the time. The -defense becomes irrelevant because everybody is hitting at the 95% cap anyways. In a PUG, sure, maybe you'll get the occasional person who didn't know how to slot his build, in which case, yeah, earth-control is noob- or PUG-friendly and possibly helping the team deal more damage than Ice. Or perhaps you're fighting Nemesis or Vampyri, and the party's to-hit is in the crapper or the defense is ridiculously buffed. Sure, in those specific circumstances, Earth may help the team deal more damage. In most situations, though, -defense is relatively useless.
Stalagmites deals .08 DPS, unslotted for damage (which it usually is). Volcanic Gases deals .05 DPS, again unslotted for damage (which, again, it usually is). I don't know if Volcanic Gases procs its own Containment, but my guess is that it doesn't. Either way, though, those two powers cannot make a dent in the damage that Arctic Air provides.
I won't argue against you that Animate Stone does less damage than Jack Frost (I wish Ice had a better pet... I feel like we need two Jacks to make up for the awesome that is Imps or Singularity), but, again, he from single-target syndrome, whereas Arctic Air not only is AoE, but then can cause its confused enemies to themselves perform an AoE.
Ice clearly has the advantage here.
As far as Grav goes, I won't content and even pointed out in my post the fact that Grav has strong single-target damage. In fact, under most situations and coupled with most secondaries, Grav's ST damage outperforms Ice's ST damage by leaps and bounds. My argument, however, was about AoE damage, of which Grav has -none- that Ice itself does not have. Crushing Field does exactly the same amount of damage as Frostbite, but Grav doesn't have a single AoE aside from that, while Ice has AA. Simply by virtue of having an AoE power (that then often spawns multiple AoE powers), Ice beats Grav by default.
As for your evidence, I'd like to know how many enemies you fight with your Grav/Storm versus your Ice/Storm, and what level those enemies are (please don't take my calling for evidence as a personal attack, as so many would on these forums. I'm genuinely interested in the numbers.). If you're soloing +3 enemies set for one, then yeah, Grav/Storm is definitely going to do better than Ice/Storm. I stated in my argument that Grav has superior ST damage unless Ice is combined with a fast-recharge set like Kin or Rad, in which case the two start to gravitate towards the mean as Ice has two fast-recharging attacks while Grav is saddled with the long animation time of Propel.
I might even argue that, due to the knockdown and to-hit debuff of Storm, your secondary is contributing towards your negative perception of Ice's damage abilities. Your argument that AA somewhat neuters itself due to its powerful slow effect is even more applicable to a Stormy that debuffs to-hit and causes knockdown. The only thing that a Confuser wants to debuff is the enemy's resistance. All other mitigation, ideally, should come in the form of buffs.
I'm thinking about writing up a guide to Ice and specifically Ice/Kin, and I'd love to have input from your Ice/Storm. I'd especially like to know if you think that my theory of Storm's debuffing your enemies could play a part in your perception of Ice's lack of damage, as I'm going to devote an entire section to Arctic Air and how it enhances different playstyles, as well as which secondaries are best for which playstyles (for example, an Ice Controller wishing to use AA as a damage power should never take Rad as a secondary due to the strong to-hit debuff of the set, but an Ice Controller wishing to use AA as a lockdown power absolutely should consider Rad because of the synergy of AA and RI/EF/CC for lockdown purposes).
As far as Mind goes, again, I won't argue against the strong ST damage of the set. Mind wins. As far as AoE damage goes, Mind has a stronger AoE potential with Mass Hypnosis + Terrify until the Ancillaries, when Mind doesn't have any way of consistently creating AoE damage. Mass Hypnosis --> Fireball --> Terrify is likely to do less damage than AA --> Frostbite --> Fireball. Even if it doesn't, Ice can throw another Contained Fireball to make up for it, while Mind can't. Terrify does 30 damage out of the box, 60 slotted. That's 1/4 of a second contained Fireball, which Mind cannot launch.
And this is in a vacuum. Try using Mass Hyp to set off your Containment in a team. Try using Mass Hyp at all. It's a waste of endurance.
Mass Confusion is extremely limited by its recharge time. I believe it has a ten target cap (correct me if I'm wrong), and has a 3-slotted recharge time of 120 seconds. It is therefore affecting at most one enemy every 12 seconds, averaged. AA effects 30% (lets say 12) of its spawn every 2.5 seconds, or 4/2.5 = 1.6 enemies every second, or 19.2 enemies in the same time that it takes Mass Confusion to confuse one (it doesn't work out like this, but these are averages). Yes, the length of the confuse is stronger on Mass Confusion; generally, however, enemies are still confused when they die. More realistically, MC works on every 4th or 5th spawn, or 25% of the map population. AA works on 66% every spawn (30% with a [slotted] 5 second duration processing every 2.5 seconds), or 66% of the map population. This doesn't count the added benefit of Contagious Confusion, which is definitely more useful in AA than it is in Mass Confusion and which itself has a 30% chance (per enemy) of applying a 10 second confusion to 5 enemies every 20 seconds. Put that in Mass Confusion and you'll confuse the boss. Put that in AA and you'll confuse the spawn.
Mind would be the most damaging set if it has a reliable means of Containment. The fact that it doesn't automatically causes it to slip to the bottom rung.
Illusion is the same way. Even if I grant you that the pets do more damage (debatable, and I'd like to test this) and that the single-target is superior to Ice's (it is), Illusion again has no reliable method for creating AoE containment and therefore does not benefit as strongly from the Ancillaries as Ice.
I had neglected the single-target confuses of Mind and Illusion, which do increase damage. Thank you for pointing that out. It is difficult for Ice to confuse a boss, though, with Contagious Confusion and Overpower, possible. Certainly not as consistent as Mind/Illusion, but then, the confuses of those sets tend to be applied several seconds into a fight, after most of the minions and LTs are dead anyways (in a group, anyways).
Perhaps my argument needs a clarification. I'm not arguing that Ice Control itself does more damage than these sets (well, in the case of Earth and Grav, I am. Possibly with Mind, as well - I'm not sure that Terrify can do as much damage as AA.), but there is certainly a case to be made that the damage -potential-, especially AoE, is significantly higher in Ice than with Earth, Grav, Mind, or Illusion. When you consider the fact that Mind and Illusion have such trouble with consistent Containment, I think that Ice comes out on top. Arctic Air, in these cases, is just gravy.
Again, I'm wondering if your argument stems from the fact that you're playing solo with low spawn-counts, in which case the ST damage of Grav, Mind, and Illusion will come out on top, or if the debuffing nature of your secondary somehow skews your results. I'd ask you to try turning the spawn count up and not using your secondary just to test the difference in speed between Grav and Kin, at least for one or two spawns each. I'm confident that Ice will out-perform.
To summarize/TL;DR: When soloing against small spawns, Ice will likely be slower than all but Earth. Pump up the spawn size, though, and Ice will begin to shine. Add in the higher-level ancillary damage powers, and Ice climbs the tiers significantly. -
I wonder how many mezzes will actually get to you if you cap out S/L defenses. Looking at it, I'd say that S/L provides mitigation against a good amount of groups, but not to the level of the psi APP.
If you were willing to blow, say, 400 million influence, you could cap out your Range/AoE defense and go //Fire. Five sets of Zephyr will run you about 250m if you take your time shopping. The Steadfast Protection +3% defense will be about 50m, and the rest shouldn't cost you more than 100m to push you over the Ranged/AoE cap. This would give you the best of both words, as you'd be virtually free from mez (barring Dominate/Mesmerize and any +to-hit, say from Nemesis), but capable of tossing out that extra damage.
400m is actually pretty easy to come across, now, if you save your money. You wouldn't have to grab any purples, so the build would actually be relatively cheap. Free from Mez and tossing out ridiculous loads of damage? I'd say it's worth it.
Then again, you said that this character is largely casual and that you're not up to min-maxing her out. If that's the case, I'd go //Psi. You can get a decent amount of damage out of it, and mez protection is especially important if you're constantly hopping from toon to toon. Going from a scrapper to a controller and forgetting that your new toon doesn't have mez defense is a total pain in the butt.
The largest thing I'm always concerned about with my Kin in groups is that I never feel I'm getting my full use out of Fulcrum Shift because the squishies never come into melee and the melee toons don't have high-radius AoEs or are largely single-target oriented. When I can actually throw out the damage, that mitigates the futile feeling, somewhat. -
Quote:Bind your emergency power (Hibernate, Phase Shift, or even a Break Free if you're playing a squishy) to your middle mouse button. Clicking it becomes second nature.Originally Posted by Local_Man
And Hibernate is great if I remember to activate it in time.
As far as an ancillary for Plant/Kin, you can't go wrong with //Stone. Sure, the visuals are ugly, but you can always dual-build into Psi or Ice, if that's your thing. The big thing is that Kin is built to augment a high-damage playstyle, so Stone or Fire come in handy. Stone wins out over Fire because of the armor, but Fire can work, too, if you have enough influence to cap both range and AoE defense (I can be done). With seeds of Confusion, you won't be taking too many melee attacks, anyways.
Keep in mind that defense counts as a layer of mez protection. That which isn't hitting you isn't mezzing you. Bind a Break Free to some slot in your power tray or to your middle mouse button and click that when you get mezzed. You'll be back up and running with the group in no time. The toggle change from a year ago makes mez more of an annoyance than an actual problem. -
We already have Electric Controllers. They're called Elec/Energy blasters, and they're sorely underrated for the job they can do. PB --> Short Circuit can almost eliminate most mobs' endurance (-96.4%, according to Mids, against an even-con), while Ball Lightning, which has an enhanceable -recovery element, spam can kill of the rest and keep them grounded. The largest problem is that Short Circuit doesn't completely eliminate the blue bar on higher-level mobs, meaning that Electric Blasters tend to absorb an alpha if they're attempting to lead off. One well-slotted PB --> Ball Lightning can destroy the rest of the endurance bar, but by then the Electric Blaster may very well be dead.
Regardless, we don't need Electric Controllers.
Then again, I might be bitter. I was really hoping the next Control set would be Time Control. -
Not to get into that debate again, but yes, enjoyment > all else, just so long as you realize that, as the team leader, my enjoyment stems from taking down mobs as quickly as possible. If I believe that your enjoyment is hampering my enjoyment, I will politely explain this and then ask you to leave my team with no hard feelings. Most of the time, an Ice Controller not running Arctic Air will not significantly impede my enjoyment, but, should I feel that it does, I reserve the right to remove that Ice Controller from the team. I have kicked Stormies, though, for spamming knockback even when politely asked to not do so. MOVING ON.
I think the claim that Ice Controllers are the lowest-damaging controllers needs to be re-addressed. In making the climb, I won't disagree that Ice Controllers lack significant damage. My Ice/Kin, though, farms at a reasonable clip, thanks in part to Arctic Air. Even without Frostbite --> Fulcrum Shift --> Fissure, I can watch opponents die just by sitting in the spawn with Arctic Air on.
Disclaimer: Normal group settings apply, assuming a 5-8 man team tackling a full mob. I fully realize that Ice is lacking in single-target damage, though my Ice/Kin can and has solo'd AVs. It just takes patience. A lot of patience.
At this point, I'm reasonably certain that the lowest-damage Controller build is actually Earth, which has comparable single-target damage to Ice but no AoE damage at all (aside from Stalagmites, the AoE immobilize that does the same amount of damage as Ice's Frostbite). It is arguable, actually, the Earth's damage is lower than Ice from the get-go, as Ice can contribute to team damage through Arctic Air even without the Contagious Confusion proc. Earth has even more limited AoE options. Volcanic Gasses can contribute on occasion, but the recharge time on that power is so severely restricting that it does not make a substantial increase in DPS. The -defense is really the only thing that Earth has going for it, but that goes away in the SO levels when you not only get Accuracy SO/IOs but also tend to pick up or at least have a teammate with Tactics. Honestly, how often do any of you miss, out there? In comparing pets, Animate Stone does more damage than Jack, but not enough to make up for the large difference in AoE potential.
After that, I would argue that Gravity, while certainly beating Ice in the single-target damage department, once again has no significant AoE damage to bring it on par with an Ice Controller properly utilizing Arctic Air. As nice as Lift and Propel are, their single-target nature cannot allow them to compare to the AoE damage nor the endurance efficiency of Arctic Air. Unslotted and immediately activated upon recharge, Lift is a 1.16 end/sec power, while AA is a 1.04 end/sec power. Lift would deal 4 dmg/sec. While I don't have the damage numbers on AA (rather difficult to calculate, all things considered), I am sure they are considerably higher when accounting for their AoE nature. The single target efficacy of Grav is further mitigated when playing on a high-recharge Ice toon (such as Kin or Rad), which can spam Chillblain/Block of Ice far more quickly than a Grav toon can spam Lift/Propel. Singularity, while arguably a better pet overall than Jack, does not do as much damage as Jack.
Mind is also among the low-damage Controllers, because it largely falls into the same problem as Grav in that it is a single-target set. Yes, it has Terrify, but while both having a decent AoE-damage ability and being fully capable of dealing out single-target devastation with Mesmerize and Levitate, Mind has no strong method for establishing Containment and thus cannot synergize well with high-damage AoEs available in three of the five Ancillaries. Ice can. Oh, and Mass Confusion wishes it was Arctic Air. Also, no pet.
I would put Ice above Illusion, actually. In an 8-man spawn, you can expect to have roughly five enemies confused at a time, unslotted for confusion duration. Unslotted, an Illusion Controller averages 3.5 pets. When decked out with IOs, Illusion can keep out five pets, while Ice has the entire spawn confused. While the Illusion pets are more accurate and likely doing more damage per entity, and while Ice's pets tend to stop contributing damage when they die, Illusion suffers from the same problem as Mind in that it doesn't have a reliable way to set up Containment and therefore cannot synergize well with the AoE damage abilities available in the Ancillaries.
Ice is definitely below Plant and Fire, though. While Arctic Air actually does comparable damage to Hot Feet (Arctic Air doing more damage in burst, Hot Feet doing damage consistently), Imps are more damaging than Jack. Plant has Seeds of Confusion, which may be the best power in the game, as well as Carrion Creepers and Roots. Fly Trap also probably does more damage than Jack.
I'd put the hierarchy like this, then.
Earth
Gravity
Mind
Illusion
Ice
Plant/Fire (I actually think that Plant may do more damage, but that Fire/Kins are more popular because they require less buttons and a lower brain-thinky score).
The big thing that Ice has going against it is that the majority of its damage is confusion-based, which means that the party is getting reduced exp when compared to an actual AoE damage blast that could contribute the same thing. Plant and Mind suffer from this, as well.
I'd love to get a friend with a Fire/Kin to help me test Fire Cages + Hot Feet versus Frostbite + Arctic Air. I think that the Slow component from Arctic Air will cause a massive burst of front-end damage from AA but an eventually victory by the slow-but-steady Hot Feet. Though burst, though, is more useful in groups than a DoT.
TL;DR: Ice is not the lowest-damaging Controller primary. It is arguably in the top 50% of damaging primaries. -
Quote:Ice/Rad doesn't get enough respect. It is the ultimate soft-controller. Ice Slick, AA, RI, EF, CC... gg... Of course, it'll play absolute hell on your endurance bar, but I'm pretty sure it's completely impossible (AVs excluded) for one to sustain enough damage to die in such a situation. Especially if one is using the Lockdown/Contagious Confusion procs.Originally Posted by Melancton
I have an Ice/Rad in his 20s, and I am anxious to see what he can do now that he has Stamina.
On top of those, though, you also get EM Pulse and Glacier.
As far as the AoE immobilize --> Fireball --> Fireball game goes... Eh. Fire/Kins. Whenever I have an immob --> fb --> fb user, it's usually one of them. Fulcrum Shift is nice, but I generally don't like them on my teams. Maybe it's my pathological hatred of Fire Control, though. Aside from Flashfire, which can't realistically be used on every mob, can a Fire Controller really be called a Controller? I'd rather have an Ice/Earth/Plant Controller any day. Even Grav would be more welcome.
Anyways, that's a tangent that I'd rather not further explore. AA is awesome, and has my vote as the set-defining power in Ice Control. Take that, Ice Slick. -
I've had the opposite experience with my Ice/Kin. 8-man spawned Council, no bosses... sea of purple dots. It feels like the entire spawn is confused at times.
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I'm pretty sure the devs have no way of limiting the Contagious Confusion proc to only fire off of the Confusion aspect of Arctic Air... and since Arctic Air is auto-hit, that means that the Contagious Confusion proc is going off on 30% of the spawn for ten seconds every twenty seconds, according to Red Tomax. The thing is that it has a radius of 20 feet and a max target cap of 5... which essentially means that, in a spawn of 14, Contagious Confusion will proc on almost the entire group about 4-5 times. With the way that target caps work, if Contagious Confusion misses one target, it will move on to another, until it runs out of targets within its radius or hits its five target cap. Basically, the first ten seconds of a fight out to see almost everyone confused.
The actual confusion proc from Arctic Air is also limited at 30%, but it's not actually as important as Contagious Confusion, which not only procs an AoE but also actually lasts longer than the confuse from Arctic Air (even if you've maxed out confusion duration slotting, actually...).
Wow. Looking at the actual power stats on Red Tomax makes me think that the Arctic Air + Contagious Confusion combo is actually more overpowered than I'd thought. Yet, Contagious Confusion itself is actually pretty well balanced outside of AA. In a single target confuse like Deceive, Contagious Confusion is actually pretty balanced. In an AoE power like Mass Confusion or Seeds of Confusion, it really only succeeds in catching the misses or nailing bosses. Arctic Air, though... I mean, it is totally overpowered, but I don't know how they fix it without destroying its usefulness in the other situations.
Sorry for getting off an a rant about Contagious Confusion in an AA thread, but I think it's relevant. Contagious Confusion completely changes the name of the game for an Ice Controller. The first ten seconds of every battle (minus resistances), everything is going to be confused. That's substantial. -
I don't understand why nobody farms Council Empire anymore. Set to 8, the only mezzes come from the occasional jump kick.
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Storm. Freezing Rain ups the Scrapper's damage, and he doesn't need the extra defense when he can soft-cap himself very easily. You both will hand end issues, though. I'd say Ice/Kin would be ideal, but I'm biased towards Kinetics.
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A lot of people think that Ice Slick is the set-defining power of Ice Control. Up until 50, I would perhaps agree with them: Ice Slick is, after all, the power that made me decide to make an Ice Controller. Since I've hit 50, however, I find myself having specced out of Ice Slick in favor of the ridiculous damage that is Arctic Air. Simply put, I don't want my enemies knocked down when I have a sea of purple dots floating above their heads. I don't even have Ice Slick in my build, anymore. I never use it. All that said, I agree with what has been said so far: Arctic Air is a late bloomer, and poorly placed in the power tree.
Arctic Air, out of the box, is mediocre at best. It is a terrible endurance hog, and, up until recently, had no really discernible effect due to the fact that the confuse animation was not displaying properly. I believe that this animation problem has contributed greatly to AA's lack of respect, as nobody could really tell that it was doing anything. Indeed, even as a Kin, I spent my entire 1-49 career spamming Shiver instead of AA. Even now, when it is easily distinguishable, the history of the power keeps people from seeing the sheer amount of awesome that the power emits.
AA begins to shine in SO levels, when you can slot it with three confuse durations. This allows for the confusion to at least absorb one attack. Coupled with the slow, most minions and LTs effected by the confuse won't be doing any damage before they are annihilated by the damage coming in. With Arctic Air and Ice Slick, melee range becomes A-OK for squishies and a cakewalk for your more durable ATs. Still, Shiver keeps Ice Controllers safer, as it keeps them at range. I can see the argument for Shiver vs. Arctic Air until 50.
Here's the kicker, though. Arctic Air gets gets better, while Shiver stays the same. When you hit level 50, Arctic Air gets so much better that it blows Shiver out of the water. A well-slotted AA will become the set-defining power of an Ice Controller's post-50-ding career. The key, like the key to making most powers completely overpowered, is invention sets.
The first and less important aspect of Arctic Air is the fact that it can accept three damage procs, those being Cacophany: Change for xxx Damage, Malaise's Illusions: Chance for Psionic Damage, and some slow set (I think it's Tempered Readiness). Three damage procs plus the confusion already prevalent in the set creates a significant amount of damage from the "least damaging" Controller primary.
AA really shines, though, when you add the Contagious Confusion proc. It costs a mere 15 million, which should be affordable to anyone that has been using IOs since level 35. And it changes the power in a fairly ridiculous fashion. I swear, it is like having Mass Confusion in toggle form. There is a sea of purple dots, which, depending on the enemies that you're facing, add up to more damage that Hot Feet does for the Fire/Kin. Walking into an 8-man minion/LT Council spawn, I can usually see minions start going down after about 5-7 seconds just from AA alone - I am not pressing buttons at all (Okay, one non-Fulcrum'd Frostbite at the beginning of the fight for the -knockback). This, in addition to your proc madness.
Based off of this idea, I've been fooling around with an Ice/Kin farmer build. I cheaply soft-capped my S/L (about 30-50 million if you make your own IOs), gave myself a luxury Zephyr Knockback resistance, and opened up a high-AoE farm map (Council Empire, with tons of rocket-AoE minions and LTs). Utilizing Arctic Air, generous applications of Frostbite (for the -knockback, as rockets tend to scatter mobs), and Fissure, I can farm a mission almost as fast as as a Fire/Kin. If I ignore fringe leftover mobs (usually fringe LTs, as Jack can take down fringe minions in two hits) and just go from group-to-group, I can farm at an absolutely ridiculous speed. All at a greater level of safety than a Fire/Kin, as enemies rarely ever throw an attack my way.
The largest problem with Arctic Air is the terrorize aspect, which causes mobs to flee. It makes grouping a pain, and sometimes I need to turn off Arctic Air to get the a scattered mob to gather on me. But AA doesn't have a significant activation time, so it's not a significant hassle. And Hot Feet has this same problem, IIRC.
I'm working on a new build for this farmer that's going to push me in the 300-500 million range. The idea is to cap my AoE/range defense so I don't need Stone Armor. Then I can move over to the Fire Tree and pick up Fireball, which doesn't stun enemies and thus doesn't remove the added AoE damage that confused rocketeers provide. I also get Rise of the Phoenix, which I will never use but is one of my favorite powers based on sheer Look I'm Awesome factor.
I don't think it will be Fire/Kin or IO-Warshade fast, but it will at least approach those levels.
I'll be posting more about this as my experiment continues, but right now I'm incredibly pleased with how well this is working. My attack chain is Frostbite --> Fulcrum Shift --> Siphon Speed --> Transference --> Fissure --> Frostbite --> Fissure. By allowing a little bit of time before Fissure, I maximize the amount of damage that AA does. Many mobs fall to the first Fissure, and even more are killed by the second Frostbite.
By the way, here's my AA-slotting of Awesome. Coercive Persuasion: Con/End, Coercive Persuation: Con, 3 Damage Procs, Coercive Persuation: Contagious Confusion. It costs about 20-30 million, as CPs are cheap aside from Contagious Confusion.
TL;DR version:
1) Slot AA with 3 damage procs and a Contagious Confusion.
2) Walk into a high-AoE mob (Council, Family would likely be good).
3) ????
4) PROFIT.
PS: To the poster asking about AA detecting Stalkers in PvP: You must damage a Stalker in PvP in order to break their hide. If you slot your AA with damage procs, you have an okay chance. Still, never stand still in PvP unless you're around like seven Force Field/Sonic buddies. -
Right, so I realize that the Ice/Kin will never beat the Fire/Kin as far as efficiency goes, but I happen to already have a 50 Ice/Kin with a spare build slot. I figure that, with Arctic Air as well as Fissure and Containment, I'll be close enough to the damage that a Fire/Kin can put out (though slow enough to show a difference).
I've decided to go the easy route and soft-cap my S/L defense, but I have no idea where to go from there. I considered also soft-capping my range defense so that I could farm other missions when I got bored, and made a build for that, but somehow don't find it the most efficient use of resources. My question is, what should I spec for after my S/L are soft-capped?
Money isn't particularly an issue, though I don't want to go all-out with purples. I've already got the required enhancements for soft-capping, so the farm-build will function regardless. I can farm easily enough now to pick up the necessary influence for whatever is suggested.
Here's my current build. Anything anyone can do to suggest an alternate build would be really useful.
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Selectable maps
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Flight Not Viable -
Name: Die Zeitritter
Currently Recruiting: Yes.
RP Level: Medium RP. All OOC communication is marked with brackets or some other method.
Theme/Concept: Time Warriors, or, if you prefer, Ouroboros own little army. Before it came back to the present time, Ouroborus assembled a task force to deal with any issues that the general 2007-2008 Paragonian hero population might not be able to fix. In order to facilitate the strength of the team, Ouroborous traveled through time and recruited only the best and the brightest to serve. Every member of Ouroboros Zeitritter is exceptional in some way, or has some sort of specialty that contributes to the team beyond combat abilities. This could manifest itself as some sort of leadership trait, or perhaps an exceptional resourcefulness. All origins are welcome.
What, you didnt think Ouroboros came all the way back here without an army, did you?
Activity: As its based on I11 content, its just getting started.
Requirements for Membership: A character must be from a different point in the timestream. This could be in the future; this could be in the past. A character must also have been an exceptional hero during that time, and willing to leave his of her part of the timestream in order to stop The Coming Storm. Finally, a character must have a unique specialization beyond combat prowess that somehow adds to the team, perhaps as an intelligence officer, perhaps as a leader, perhaps as a hacker, or something along those lines.
Indoctrination into the supergroup can be RPd as an actual meeting or as the character having been part of Ouroboros for a period of time up to the creator of the character. The organization is supposed to be at least somewhat assembled prior to arriving in the present, so it would be helpful if several applications decided that their characters had been part of the Zeitritter for awhile.
Leadership: Alluring Onyx is the Wotan Knight, and leader of the Zeitritter. Heavenly Diamond, her sister, functions as a recruiting officer.
Contacts: Contact @Seigyoku or @Zandock.
Official Website: None, at the moment.
Coalitions: None, at the moment.
Please feel free to make contact with any other questions you might have. -
Save yourself a slot by putting your stealth IO in sprint. Put it in your tray, click it on, click it off every thirty seconds or so. Not that difficult. If you've been around for awhile, you can even put it in one of your prestige sprint powers if you really want to slot sprint with an end/run HO. Or vice versa.
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((Seig's been living in Siren's Call ever since the authorities tried to arrest her. She could conveniently happen along in order to give Clobber more of a fighting chance... If you want.
Would be pretty interesting, actually, since Seig's slated to join FUTURE within the next month. She'd obviously butt heads with Vicegrip over this.)) -
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Y'know, I'm not going to bother. Shinsektor wins.
He hasn't even posted here, and I already know that. -
I think that one of us is misunderstanding the way that the AoE cap works (heck, it could be me). To my understanding, the AoE cap means that a power will hit a maximum of ten targets, not attempt to hit a maximum of ten targets. In your case, so long as you have over ten targets in your target group, every miss will generate another to-hit roll, until ten to-hit rolls have been made successfully.
It's the main reason why I pulled an accuracy out of Shiver in I5. I don't want it to hit the same mobs consistently - I'd rather it hit a scattered array of various mobs, so that, the next time I fire it off, it has a better chance of less redundancy.