Mentor Project - Discussion

I would say no to powerleveling, and keep them out of farms until they reach a high enough level that it wouldn't be PLing and that they already have an understanding of the rest of the game.

There's no reason to farm before the high 40's/level 50 anyhow, unless you're actively working on IOing a build with some of the more expensive stuff, which is not an absolute necessity in this game.

Farm are a part of the game yes.

So what's wrong with just "telling" the new player what exactly a farm is, why they are run, and such? Then if they want to eventually run them themeselves, so be it. I know plenty of people who run farm missions who can still play the game just fine.

I understnad the goal of this project to be to teach new players how the game works. How powersets mesh, how to play a toon to it's most effective. That's good. I don't think we should shy away from letting the new players know what a farm is, but I concur that we shouldn't be actively showing them what one is.

Completely agree with you Willli1, Panzer, Kyo, and Rasta. Farms are a part of the game, and they have their uses/benefits, as Kyo pointed out. As for learning the game though, i second Rasta. TELLING them would be sufficient enough.

Would telling someone how to run a mission or a TF/SF be sufficient enough? How about telling someone how an AT works instead of showing them?

If you're willing to set the precedent that "no, you can't do this at all", then best of luck to you.

I don't see how even telling them HOW to do a farm is important this early on in their CoH "career", if you will. I think the most important thing would be teaching them what is to be gained from them [farms]. (i.e. drops, infl, prestige and such), and yes, that is rather easy to explain. Any by telling them the benefits to be gained from farming, I mean placing emphasis on farming AFTER certain other understandings have been accomplished. Even going into detail as much as which missions are ideal and which AT's/Builds can do what, but I think even that isn't important at this stage.

So, the two things you suggest are completely separate. Telling someone how to run a mish and/or TF or how an AT works oppose to farming. I don't know many people that think they'd be "skimping" on teaching someone if they didn't show them how to farm, but rather taught them the basics of the game and which AT's help to do this or that....making them a better team player and helping them understand the uses of certain powers would enrich their play more and send them in the right direction.....imo

Furthermore, it doesn't sound like too many rules are going to be placed on this. I think it's just the general synopsis that teaching someone the other things I, and others, have suggested would be more beneficial than teaching farming.

All this, of course, is just MY opinion. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong...just providing my thoughts

Farming/PLing is kind of a grey area anyway. The devs have been pretty clear that they don't like it, and often "fix" exploits and missions that are farmed a lot.

I think if you are taking in a truly new player and trying to help him learn to play this game... he should be made aware that farming exists, but... no... I don't think this project should including PLing/Farming.

Besides, it really doesn't take all that much skill to door camp. I think when the time comes, they can probably figure it out.

Read my stories!

Look, players who KNOW how the game works, are the ones who figured out farming. They realized what powersets blended well, gave the right amount of buffs or whatever, and figured out farming.

So if we can TEACH a new player how the game works, and they are aware of farming, then they can decide for themselves if it's something they want to do.

And bear in mind. 7 out of 8 people on a farm mission just have to log in. At least if the person doing the farming is doing right. So, for over 80% of farming teams, all we have to do is teach someone how to log in. I think they already have that covered.

I'm not arguing anymore, and I'm the only one that had a dissenting view. You guys made your decision, there's no reason to try and justify it. Specially trying to justify it to someone who learned concepts that expanded to other portions of the game from farm teams.

You all agree; go on to another subject. I'm sure there are plenty left.

This ongoing discussion is actually helping cement the idea in my mind that mentors - if we keep going with a primarily (but not exclusively) one-to-one ratio with neophytes - will be able to broach a variety of topics, or refer the player to another mentor if they're unfamiliar or uncomfortable with it some of them.

If we don't like badgehunting, we can refer to someone else's experience. If a mentor has strong PvP knowledge, perhaps he/she can be sought out to answer questions (perhaps even run events) even if the neophyte isn't assigned directly.

As a matter of fact, this could open up a new area to cover before we launch:


Would the new players benefit more from a "global community" type organization, or a more direct one-to-one approach, albeit one that is open, perhaps even to switching mentors as needed?


I think we were already looking at a hybrid of this in effect if not in theory, with the direct attention some neophyte players will want from a personal mentor, and the availability of a larger crew of experienced players to offer even further support. It would also allow graduates to ask/answer further questions down the road, or for those neophytes / mentors not wanting a one-to-one deal to still benefit / be of service from it.

Here's what we have so far:

• No official committee or leadership roles would be needed.
• No particular incentives proposed to mentors at this time to take on their role.
• Set up a global channel to help coordinate things, and provide another layer to the support network for neophytes.
• Stay in close contact with our server's P.E.R.C. and PVPEC reps, if only to let them know how things are working out in their areas of interest.
• SG will be available for experimentation on base building / SG management.
• Allow neophytes to "graduate" and in turn be offered a role as mentor after their contract has ended.
• Within any SGs created for/by neophytes, the tier 1 role would be that of the Advocate (official name to be determined). This role will concentrate on hearing issues between mentors and neophytes, and propose solutions. A villain-side equivalent will be required if I take hero-side (good for consulting with as well). Other ranks for tier 2 reserved for mentors / graduates. All other ranks used for neophytes.
• Propose mentoring contracts between more experienced player and less experienced player that are:
• 1. Limited in duration, unless mentor decides otherwise.
  2. Not enforced, but open - Either party can opt to leave at any time if it doesn't work out for whatever reasons. Mentors will have 100% control over how they can assist the newbie in their care.
  3. The mentor has no duty towards the newbie except to act as guide. As such, he/she could answer questions, help the newbie find a supergroup or start one, team up if schedules permit, etc. The (initiate / proselyte / newbie?) will be made to understand that the mentor is not responsible for his/her enjoyment of the game.
  4. The newbie will not expect undue assistance from the mentor. He/She will be expected to make a "best effort" when teaming with the mentor (no leeching) and not to expect gifts from the mentor (which would be at mentor's discretion)
  5. Neither mentor nor newbie will expect that the other be available at all times and will respect the other's need for personal time and other commitments.
  6. Mentors will be free to cover areas of CoH gaming they want with the neophytes, in private, using their judgement about the pertinence to neophyte's game style. This should cover questions re: farming and powerlevelling. To avoid un-needed discussions in the global channel we should keep these talks private. We don't want to impose our own likes / dislikes to them, yet they should be free to learn (or at least find out about) about all aspects of the game.

I'm not sure proselyte is one hundred percent appropriate, but I like that. I'ma start using that.

There will most likely come a time when one proselyte finds that another proselyte is getting more "stuff" (stuff in this sense being items, money, concepts, what-have-you) from their mentor and will probably become jealous. What do we do when that happens, or what can we do to prevent that from happening?

Or do we do anything at all?

If it's at the mentor's discretion whether they give gifts to their proselytes or not, then the other mentors/advocate should stay out of it.

What good are you doing by this whole initiative?

If I'm understanding this correctly, the assumption is that mentors are going to help "proselytes" by sharing their knowledge and/or acting as guides in the game when its convenient for them.

On one hand the entire thing strikes me as completely redundant given that there are many avenues to ask for information and a wealth of information on the forums that covers pretty much everything. I frequently get questions from complete strangers asking about my builds or how to do things. Also I think that pretty much everyone who considers themself to be a vet learned the game the traditional way: play it, try things out, ask questions, and make friends.

Stalemate's comments above suggests that a primary concern is neophyte's who are too timid to do so. How numerous are these people? Is it enough to justify this growing bureaucracy? Why not just a thread describing individuals and sgs/vgs interested in helping less experienced players?

Another thing to note is that this is entertainment. As such, the question of right or wrong hinges on the player's enjoyment. If they are having fun, the game is a success, whether or not they are fulfilling the potential of a certain AT. When I look back on the game, the funnest times where when I was new at something. I didn't know what to expect or what was the best way to solve a problem. I tried different things and sometimes came up with funky solutions that worked for me but maybe weren't standard for other people. Pvp was a blast when nobody knew what they were doing, because you could get away with so many tactics. No longer.

Eventually, if you stay with it you learn the game and how things work. And you get an idea of what the optimal solutions are for different problems. Then standard gameplay starts to become dull. And, despite the antipathy to farming, everyone is farming. The whole game becomes a farm--repetetive tasks to achieve certain goals. Only some farms are based on efficiency and some aren't.

You don't want to shortchange that period of blissful ignorance. Once you learn how to play things "well" you can't really go back to thinking you're a god wiping out badguys with your all powerful jump kick.

I hated this game for the first several months I played it. I sucked. That my main's build (which has remained mostly unchanged since I created him) is decent (post level 28) was a complete accident. The only reason I kept playing was because my brother played, same reason I played WoW.

If he had quit before I got good (and if i recall correctly, the timetables were damn close), I wouldn't be here. I got "lucky".

Not everyone can get enjoyment out of being thrust into a new environment. And if people like that don't get good fast enough, they give up.

I assume that's the people we're going after. People that want to learn beyond reading a guide, but don't know where to go, or who to ask.

Though, perhaps we should see how much attention a project like this would actually get from new players before completely organizing and launching it. As Frozen implied, people might just generally not care.

Absolutely, Demon. There are a lot of people, once harangued once or twice in Atlas (or Mercy or Cap) don't ask again... yet still struggle.

This was my first MMO and I played for months and often had a hard time, until I met my first experienced players and got in a really good SG. These people mentored and guided me. Taught me how to enhance my toon. Show me little tricks and taught me about the different ATs. Yes, there is a lot I learned on my own and just by playing, but these people made the game SO much more enjoyable. Enough that I'm still here 4 years later.

There is definately something to be said for "personal service". Having someone or a group of someones you can go to and ask questions and not be made to feel stupid. Which happens often enough with the general populace (broadcast) in the game (and most games).

Offering a newbie SG and VG and offering a GROUP* of mentors to help you just reminds me of those early days when I had help and how much fun it was.

* I think there should be a POOl of mentors and not "assigned" one-on-one. I do agree with FD in that we need as little beauracracy (sp?) as possible. A group of mentors to help and advise with the superleader advocate (1 each red & blue side)... but that's just me.

So, Protector.

Do we need this, or not?

Is this worth the time and effort?