To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Stalemate would not be perfect for the role, as he is extremely active in and familiar with the Protector community. However, this is an extremely ambitious project, and will probably require massive amounts of time and effort to coordinate-at least as much as running a successful supergroup; possibly more. My concern is that it may be the straw that breaks the camel's back, as it were.
Maybe if the leadership duties could be split up? There are six ranks in a SG, so maybe something like:
Leader: Stalemate (or whoever)
Commander: Leader's appointed assistants
General: Mentors w/over 1 year of vet rewards
Captain: Mentors w/under 1 year of vet rewards
Lieutenant: General's newbies
Member: Captain's newbies
I'm not saying that number of vet rewards is any kind of good measure for how well someone knows/plays the game; I'm only using it as an example for how the lower four ranks could be filled. We've all met six month vets who knew exactly what they were doing and 54 month vets without a clue. Also, a system where the Leader position has good backup that they trust means that if something did happen (something comes up in RL, for example) there would be people who knew what was going on who could take over if necessary.
Of course, that's just my humble opinion. Since this thread was started for discussion, though, we might as well discuss.
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@MissKyo, Leader of the Teamsters coalition on Protector
However, in my mind, the SuperLeader's role is simply that of being a new player advocate between the mentors and newbies. His or her only requirement being to make sure everything is running smoothly, and to be there for the newbies until they aren't newbies anymore, to advocate if there is some disagreement or problem.
So the people in the Commander position (mentors) would be the actual SG leadership? I could see how that would work, but again, they should be either volunteers or people agreed on by the rest of the group (or both). Actually, everyone's a volunteer in this, so I guess that part's a nonissue, but to clarify, I mean people who are specifically volunteering for the mentor program but who are willing to also take on a leadership role.
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@MissKyo, Leader of the Teamsters coalition on Protector
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I think this is a great idea, and I've seen similar things implemented in other MMO's. For example, EVE has a corporation (their equivalent of an SG) called EVE University that fulfills this type of function. Something along the same lines could be done here, with a similar theme even. A university, college or academy themed SG, with a easily recognized name so word would get around rapidly. |
Originally Posted by willli1
My major concern of the NPWN and now of this are of predatory sgs and vgs snatching up new players only to earn prestige. I see this phenom often on virtue where a large coalition snatches up new players and then forgets them as long as the work in the salt mines of prestige earning. So I put this forward to you, what of creating a new player vg/sg that is led by your mentor volunteers. As the group matures, the leadership would be handed down to them. Coalitions could be created with larger groups to allow for base access until the group could stand on its own and to enlarge the mentor pool. I have a base that is rarely used redside that could be coalied with them or maybe even just give it to them. The best times I have had were learning the game with people in the same boat as me. Advice was welcome but demands were not. Giving them their own group could be a solution.
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I'm more than willing to help with a project like this, whether spending time helping new players, or contributing influence to the cause. I've always enjoyed mentoring new players, so if we can get anything worthwhile off the ground, I'll help as much as possible.
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I think for a new-player SG to be successful, you've got to have some more room in the ranks for promoting the new players. Most of the eager new players I've seen like the little reward of getting bumped up in SG rank. I'd suggest leaving the 3 bottom ranks open for newbies, so that promotion potential is there.
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Originally Posted by DJKyo
Maybe if the leadership duties could be split up? There are six ranks in a SG, so maybe something like:
Leader: Stalemate (or whoever) Commander: Leader's appointed assistants General: Mentors w/over 1 year of vet rewards Captain: Mentors w/under 1 year of vet rewards Lieutenant: General's newbies Member: Captain's newbies |
Good morning everyone.
Nice to see all the feedback this idea is getting, and good constructive stuff too.
My evenings were a bit busier this week so I'm catching up this morning.
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Originally Posted by bamaWolfie
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Yet, Stalemate volunteered to take NPWN over again, because he had time to devote to it. I think Stalemate would be the PERFECT person to be the SL and be the New Player (not mentor) advocate. |
Thanks for the vote of confidence everyone for thinking of me for this role.
I quoted the ladies above only to confirm that yes, I do have more time for this kind of project. Since it's an extension of The-Group-Formerly-Known-As-NPWN, it's not going to be much more involvement on my part - and I was already considering this when willi1 suggested the idea of a dedicated SG. Besides my semi-solo SG, the new player stuff is all I'm involved with. The Protector Vigilance channel doesn't really require anything else to work - it's gathering its own speed now.
I have no ambition to lord over the Mentor Project or call it my own and am already appreciative of everyone's involvement so far - regardless of whether or not you have made plans to volunteer for this. This is exactly the kind of challenge I thought Protector could rise to meet.
On the topic at hand, I think the Tier 1 role should be named Ombudsman, or perhaps Diplomat, and have no other role in the SG than 1) Public Relations with Protector's community of players and 2) mediating situations where unresolvable conflicts arise between mentors and neophytes.
This is similar to what the Phantoms of War did with its tier 1 position a few months ago. All 3 SG leaders at that time wanted to step back, and so became semi-retired while remaining available for advice when sought, but taking no active role in SG management.
That actual day-to-day SG stuff, including bases and how to work them out as an experimental sandbox while still being useful, would fall onto the Tier 2 people - the actual SG leaders (with ability to kick lower ranks).
For the last 4 ranks, I like how Kyo worked it out simply for the sake of having it broken down in easily recognizable groups that don't necessarily refer to skill. Panzerwaffen's idea may fit our end goal better though. We can discuss this, and the naming of these roles (like Mentors, Team Alpha, Team Beta, Team Charlie, etc.).
I'll try to post a recap later of the ideas that struck a chord with us, to have them listed more concisely.
So far, so good.
█ Players Guide to the Cities
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
.... A university, college or academy themed SG, with a easily recognized name so word would get around rapidly...
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This is one of those ideas that you read and then initially react by saying "why didn't I think of this?!"
Anyone else like this, or is it just me and my caffeine deprived brain?
█ Players Guide to the Cities
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I agree with this Panzer. |
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I think for a new-player SG to be successful, you've got to have some more room in the ranks for promoting the new players. Most of the eager new players I've seen like the little reward of getting bumped up in SG rank. I'd suggest leaving the 3 bottom ranks open for newbies, so that promotion potential is there.
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The SuperLeader would be the new player advocate and champion. His solel purpose is simply to oversee how things are going and to champion the new players/lowbies.
Then the leaders would be the mentors.
The bottom three ranks could be reserved for the new players, giving them the reward of promotion as they learn and come up through the ranks until such time as THEY are willing to be mentors and help players newer than themselves. Paying it forward, so to speak.
I think building a brand spankin' new SG & VG for this is wise as well. The new players will have an investment in their group this way, which would also give them an investment to moving up to the mentor position whent he time comes. As stated, these groups could coalition with established groups for use of base teleporters, etc.
I look forward to seeing how this works out.
Let's not overlook the fact that by having these SGs/VGs full of new players eager to learn / do more, that there will be those who will simply wish to join an established SG / VG.
What better way to attract these than by coalitioning with these new players and showcasing your own groups as a model?
We haven't talked about how to end the "contract" yet.
Would this be a "thankyougoodbye+patontheback" with perhaps a "grad ceremony"?
Do we give them, in turn, the opportunity to help others while remaining in the group? Anyone who has done teaching or tutoring will know that you never learn as much about a topic as when you have to teach it to someone else. 
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...or maybe simply Mediator? |
Originally Posted by Stalemate
...Tier 1 role should be named Ombudsman, or perhaps Diplomat, ...
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█ Players Guide to the Cities
I've overlooked this, but... since I don't play villains, we'll need someone to take up that mediator role redside.
█ Players Guide to the Cities
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A "graduating ceremony" where they go from student to mentor, perhaps?| Would this be a "thankyougoodbye+patontheback" with perhaps a "grad ceremony"? |
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Do we give them, in turn, the opportunity to help others while remaining in the group? Anyone who has done teaching or tutoring will know that you never learn as much about a topic as when you have to teach it to someone else.
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And I think it's needed, both red side and blue side. Red side, particularly, seems to have predatory VGs who do little to assist new players. There are more people blue side, it seems to me.
I'd be happy to offer up Age and Treachery on the red side as a coalition for use of base teleporters. You'll probably be over run with offers blue side... but will offer Hostile Justice if needed.
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Originally Posted by Stalemate
Do we give them, in turn, the opportunity to help others while remaining in the group? Anyone who has done teaching or tutoring will know that you never learn as much about a topic as when you have to teach it to someone else.
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Originally Posted by bamaWolfie
This is an EXCELLENT idea.
And I think it's needed, both red side and blue side. Red side, particularly, seems to have predatory VGs who do little to assist new players. There are more people blue side, it seems to me. |
Ok, may be I am getting to carried away with this. I ws thinking of the base and the ranking structure. What if both were malleable? The lower tier ranks were considered as seperate platoons for lack of a better word. Red white and blue platoon and make all the permissions the same for all with one exception. The base editor permission would be shifted among platoons monthly or bi-monthly or whatever to give all a chance to play with it. This would require strong coalies for necessities but could be fun to see what they all come up with. One of the reasons i have never been a big sg supporter is that the only person who gets to play with the base is the leader. After the porters and storage are in place, with the exception of pvp bases, all else is just fluff for the leadership to play with. This forum stuff is actually kind of fun. I lurk no more!!!
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This.|
Originally Posted by Stalemate
I think the Tier 1 role should... have no other role... than 1) Public Relations with Protector's community of players and 2) mediating situations where unresolvable conflicts arise between mentors and neophytes.
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But what about people that don't want to join an SG/VG? I'd be happy to mentor, if it was nothing more than being someone to talk to, but I'm not joining a SG/VG to do it. I have a home.
Edit: And I'm sure there will be new players in the same boat, though possibly for different reasons.
I like the ideas that Panzerwaffen posted.
Are mentors going to be bringing their 50s into this group or creating a new too0n to play up through the levels with their newbies or what? I don't want to shift any of the toons I already have in the Teamsters, but I would very much like to mentor, and I know this is a concern for others as well (as Demon Shell mentioned).
City of Heroes taught me that when the world is burning, you don't just stand by and watch, you grab a fire extinguisher and do whatever you can to stop it-even if it's not much at all. Sign the petition to keep City of Heroes alive HERE.
@MissKyo, Leader of the Teamsters coalition on Protector
I think that 50s should not be brought in except as possibly the overlord. The presence of 50s would do several negative things. One would be the overpowered nature of malfactoring down a 50 on a lowbie team. Secondly it would make the temptation to power level too easy. In that line of thought the goals of this group need to be set. Is it to teach new players to play or to level them quickly? The two are not compatible in my eyes. I would hate for a "graduate" of this program be unable to adequately play because of PLing and not learning the game.
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Good points. Plus the potential presence of heavily-IO'd 50's may give new players the wrong impression that IO'd builds are 'required' to enjoy the game.|
Originally Posted by willli1
I think that 50s should not be brought in except as possibly the overlord. The presence of 50s would do several negative things. One would be the overpowered nature of malfactoring down a 50 on a lowbie team. Secondly it would make the temptation to power level too easy. In that line of thought the goals of this group need to be set. Is it to teach new players to play or to level them quickly? The two are not compatible in my eyes. I would hate for a "graduate" of this program be unable to adequately play because of PLing and not learning the game.
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As far as the PL'ing issue, while I have no issues with players who PL, farm, etc., I'd like to suggest that any PL'ing of newbies be 100% prohibited for any mentors involved in this.
A friend has offered up his Villain Group, Coma White, as a coalition group on the red side. 
I disagree, for the simple matter that it exists.
These aren't children we're talking about (at least, not necessarily). If a side of the coin exists, they need to see it.
"This is a regular team. This is what is expected of you; this is what you can expect from others."
"This is a Task Force/Strike Force. This is what is expected of you; this is what you can expect from others."
"This is a farm. This is what is expected of you; this is what you can expect from others."
As far as a new person to the game, it's just a side of the coin. It's not (or shouldn't be) our job to tell them "no, this is bad, you shouldn't do this." It's up to them to make that distinction for or against on their own.
I say we shouldn't play in just one way. We need to do duo teams, larger organized teams (of other mentor/new players), PUGs, Task Force/Strike Force, Trials, long arcs, short arcs, Ouroboros, AE, Holiday events. They need to be exposed to normal characters, IO'd characters, SK'd characters, Extemp'd characters, every AT (particularly how to work with a tank and/or without a healer) everything we, as mentors, can possibly include as is available to us from our own resources.
But, that's just my side of the platform. That's what I intended to do.
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Keep in mind, I was not suggesting anyone EVER tell another player "no, this is bad, you shouldn't do this." I simply don't want to see brand new players being PL'ed to 50 overnight, out of someone's misplaced idea of 'helping' them.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
As far as a new person to the game, it's just a side of the coin. It's not (or shouldn't be) our job to tell them "no, this is bad, you shouldn't do this." It's up to them to make that distinction for or against on their own.
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Exactly Panzer, if the goal of this is to teach new players how to play and enjoy cox then the goals of Pling and farming will be adverse to this project. If a newbie asks to farm or pl, simply tell them that is not what this group is about and politely point them to the prestige engines on the server if they insist that is what they want to do.
Just to throw my name in the pot, I don't mind helping mentor at all. I, like a lot of you have already advised, find myself already doing this often.
I'll promise to go easier on drinking and to get to bed earlier, but not for you, fifty thousand dollars, or two-hundred and fifty thousand dollars will I give up women. They're too much fun! - Babe Ruth
Yes, because no one can learn anything from a farm, right?
For those of you who haven't done farms as much as I have, farm teams are a different set of rules for this game. You cannot successfully (the level of which is determined by xp(or influence or tickets)/time) run through a farm mission the same way you run through a normal mission. If you're stance is "no, never, not even a few times so they can learn how they work", then you're saying no to a portion of this game that, whether you like it or not, exists.
If the point of this project is to help players understand more intricately "how to play", then it needs to be a "how to play" every aspect of this game.
Obviously, nothing but farming would, generally speaking, leave an individual with a very abstract view of this game. Same with only missions, same with only TF/SF/Trials. But to deny any area completely, should be up to the mentor in question.
If this is going to work, we need to keep it loose. Let teachers make up their own lesson plan.
Yes demon shell, I am saying exactly that farming teaches a player nothing. That is my opinion of course but it is developed from a year of strike forces ruined from PL'd 50s who had no clue. It would of course be up to the Director of this project whether or not to support farming but I would hope that we would aspire to a bit more on Protector. If farming needs to be taught then let the experts on Freedom do it.
Stale's a big boy, and has ALWAYS been active in promoting server events on Protector. AND... he has demonstrated more than once that he is fully capable of stepping back when it's time for him to do so.
If Stale feels up to the task, I think he'd be perfect.