Quote:
First - with defense set bonuses you can soft cap to at least 2 positions with Dispersion Bubble and Manuvers which, if they are ranged and AoE, allows you to hover out of melee range and pretty much have the same defense values as you would in PFF but with the ability to attack out of it. You don't have the resistances provided by PFF but you still get the mez protection from dispersion bubble and so do your allies.|
Originally Posted by Bladedancer13
I have two questions about FF Defenders.
First, what are the pros and cons of making the personal force field something that can be attacked out of even with a reduced amount of defense and an amount of reduced accuracy similar to that of hover. Second, what would be the best build for a FF Defender. |
Second - It depends on what you envision your team roll to be. Forcefields is almost entirely a pro-active buff set. That means that you will get almost no benefit from the defender inherent, soloing is mainly time and endurance consuming, your damage is anemic, and your primary buff powers are useless without teammates to cast them on.
Energy secondary allows you to synergize it's knockback with the knockback in the primary.
Electric secondary allows you to pretty much ignore one of the main problems of the FF Primary which is the rate and amount of endurance use. Damage with this set is even more anemic though since it lacks a tier 3 hard hitting blast.
Sonic solves some of the low damage problems by stacking resistance debuffs from the blasts.
Dark's accuracy debuffs synergize well with the defense provided by the primary and dark has an AoE immobilize that has no -KB component. This means that all your positioning powers in FF and Dark aren't self nullifying. The dark secondary also has a ranged damage power that has a self healing component. It allows you to immediately compensate for the 5% of all attacks that make it through the defense and do damage to you. All of this while doing relatively decent amounts of AoE damage.
Radiation allows the slotting of the Achilles heal procs to increase damage (sonic does a better job of this though).
Archery and Assault Rifle are both primarily lethal damage and Assault Rifle is further hampered by lacking Aim. Both of these sets however, have a tier 9 blast that has no endurance crash so they can be used without the bubbles dropping.
Ice gives you 2 holds that can be stacked on bosses and the ability to keep the mobs at the slow movement cap and very near, if not at, the -rech cap.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
So your proposal is an altered Personal Force Field you can attack through, but with a reduction in defense from its current form, and at reduced accuracy. Before I can really comment on that, I wonder if you could elaborate on what kind of defense and -accuracy numbers were talking about? If any case, I don't think this is feasible without creating huge balance issues. Even at a reduced defense value, PFF would still be stackable with Dispersion Bubble and any other +Defense powers you have. Even a significant -accuracy penalty (which could be overcome with IO set bonuses easily) doesn't balance that out.
I think that ice, rad, sonic, and psychic blast are the front runners. I went with psy which made soloing nearly impossible due to robots (council hoverbots, skyraider jumpbots, council mech men resist psychic blast). At higher levels on larger teams, the combination of repulsion bomb and psionic tornado provides a lot of mitigation with the continual AoE knockdown. A balanced team has a variety of damage types to cover each other's holes.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Speaking as someone who has a 50 IOd out ff/rad I'm gonna say don't bother unless you're doing so for concept reasons, or you plan on lots of teaming. The damage from your secondary will leave you wanting.
That said, if you still want a bubble go traps. FFG is great at what is does, and traps/sonic is fairly easy to soft cap without gimping your damage. As a matter of fact I have a 40% damage boost on my build from set bonuses and assault. To give you an idea how good traps is, I soloed Maria Jenkins arch on my traps at +2/8 (until I got bored near the end of it). Bless my namesake, I hope she enjoys her retirement.
Frosticus posted a build that I modified to fit my needs. I check out this thread if you want defense and damage.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=191401
@MARTy McFly
Quote:
Hello Bladedancer,|
Originally Posted by Bladedancer13
I have two questions about FF Defenders.
First, what are the pros and cons of making the personal force field something that can be attacked out of even with a reduced amount of defense and an amount of reduced accuracy similar to that of hover. Second, what would be the best build for a FF Defender. |
With regards to PFF, you pretty much have a Bubble you can shoot out of (Dispersion Bubble), and I really dont think they are going to alter PFF at this point. One way to look at it (at least how I look at it), is that FF got their Tier 9 "Oh Sh*t" power at level 1.
Thats pretty neat.
I cannot offer you a good FF build, but I am sure there are many Vets here that could supply one. Since others have suggested secondaries to choose from, I would offer my opinion on that as well. I have PLayed FF/Nrg and FF/Rad. the former was much better, but was overkill on KB. Rad was not that great IMO. If I try a FF again, I would probably go Dark (To stack -ACC with +Def) or Sonic (to get what FF lacks in -RES).
Something to think about
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Since the game has launched, Force Field's role has been impinged on more than a bit by Sonic, Cold Domination and Traps, both of which cover the bare bones of FF and add a number of offensive boosts.
FF was originally the set you'd choose to maximise your team's defence at the expense of offensive boosts.
If I was in the driving seat, I'd make FF the set that provides you better personal protection than other Defender sets. I'd keep PFF's role as turtle mode, I think that adds a nice tactical element to the set which it wouldnt have if you could fire through it.
At the moment, FF-er's can achieve almost tank level defences through careful and expensive slotting (see my guide), but I'd rathert expand this to be the default mode for FF defenders rather than the province of a few rich freaks like myself.
I would add some extra personal Defence though, maybe an extra +10% vs Melee to Repulsion Field and +10% vs Ranged/AoE to Force Bubble.
Combined with Dispersion, slotting all of these, you're now sitting at 31% Defence just like a SR scrapper, and could reach the softcap with slotted Weave and Manouvers. If you wanted to softcap without having to run Force Bubble or Repulsion Field, both of which have their downsides, you could start going for set bonuses.
This would leave FF as the set that makes the whole team as well as you invulnerable, while Sonic, Cold and Traps remain good team protectors with excellent all-round utilities on top.
As for the best build, FF/Sonic hands down. Sonic Blast is numerically way above any other defender blast set, and FF is the primary that needs the damage boost the most.
FF/Rad using damage procs, Achilles Heel procs and Sands of Mu vet power (which hits with all that -Def) would come second.
[Edit]
PFF is currently outdone by both a pool power (Phase Shift) and a temporary power anyone can buy (Ethereal Shift) in that both of these let you become totally immune to damage, instead of just very hard to hit.
I would recommend PFF acting as a phase rather than just massive defence and some Resistance.
Quote:
I don't know that I'd say that. The pool power requires two other powers to take and doesn't quite offer the instant-on that PFF does. Additionally, PFF let's you go in and herd a room and keep aggro after you turn it on. It also doesn't turn off after 30 sec. Phase Shift may protect against all damage, but you've got to survive the turn-on. |
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
PFF is currently outdone by both a pool power (Phase Shift) and a temporary power anyone can buy (Ethereal Shift) in that both of these let you become totally immune to damage, instead of just very hard to hit.
I would recommend PFF acting as a phase rather than just massive defence and some Resistance. |
Ethereal shift is available to everyone, but still doesn't let you herd with it/keep aggro after it's on. You also have to keep recharging it.
Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
here is my build what i made for a special char:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1,601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Level 50 Technology Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery
Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1: Deflection Shield DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(3)
Level 1: Power Bolt Thundr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx:50(17), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg:50(19), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(33), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46)
Level 2: Personal Force Field DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(3), DefBuff-I:50(5)
Level 4: Force Bolt Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(5), ExStrk-Dam%:20(34)
Level 6: Hover DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(7), DefBuff-I:50(7), HO:Micro(9), HO:Micro(19)
Level 8: Detention Field RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(9), RechRdx-I:50(11), Acc-I:50(11), Acc-I:50(13)
Level 10: Swift Flight-I:50(A), Flight-I:50(13), Flight-I:50(15)
Level 12: Insulation Shield DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(15)
Level 14: Fly HO:Micro(A), HO:Micro(17), HO:Micro(40)
Level 16: Dispersion Bubble DefBuff-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(31), EndRdx-I:50(33), DefBuff-I:50(33), DefBuff-I:50(37)
Level 18: Health Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(21), Mrcl-Heal:40(21), Numna-Heal:50(23)
Level 20: Repulsion Field KBDist-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(29), EndRdx-I:50(31), KBDist-I:50(31)
Level 22: Stamina P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(25), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(25)
Level 24: Stealth DefBuff-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(27), EndRdx-I:50(27), DefBuff-I:50(29), DefBuff-I:50(40)
Level 26: Aim GSFC-ToHit:50(A), GSFC-Build%:50(40), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:50(43), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx:50(43), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx:50(46), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx:50(48)
Level 28: Grant Invisibility DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(34), Krma-ResKB:30(37)
Level 30: Kick Empty(A)
Level 32: Force Bubble EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(34)
Level 35: Tough RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), RctvArm-EndRdx:40(36), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(36), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(36), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(37)
Level 38: Weave DefBuff-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(39), EndRdx-I:50(39), DefBuff-I:50(39), DefBuff-I:50(42)
Level 41: Power Build Up RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(42), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 44: Sniper Blast ExtrmM-Acc/Dmg:50(A), ExtrmM-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), ExtrmM-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45), ExtrmM-Acc/ActRdx/Rng:50(45), ExtrmM-Dmg/ActRdx/Rchg:50(46)
Level 47: Temp Invulnerability RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), RctvArm-EndRdx:40(48), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(48), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(50)
Level 49: Conserve Power RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50), RechRdx-I:50(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
4,5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
4,5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
4,5% DamageBuff(Fire)
4,5% DamageBuff(Cold)
4,5% DamageBuff(Energy)
4,5% DamageBuff(Negative)
4,5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
4,5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
6,75% Defense(Smashing)
6,75% Defense(Lethal)
5,5% Defense(Fire)
5,5% Defense(Cold)
10,5% Defense(Energy)
10,5% Defense(Negative)
3% Defense(Psionic)
6,75% Defense(Melee)
10,5% Defense(Ranged)
8% Defense(AoE)
7% Enhancement(Accuracy)
14% FlySpeed
53,4 HP (5,25%) HitPoints
14% JumpHeight
14% JumpSpeed
Knockback (Mag -4)
Knockup (Mag -4)
MezResist(Immobilize) 2,2%
11% (0,18 End/sec) Recovery
12% (0,51 HP/sec) Regeneration
14% RunSpeed
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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Helge corr lvl 50 rad/cold
Helge2 corr lvl 50 ice/rad
Techbothelge MM lvl 50 robo/dark
Helge Mauz def lvl 50 emp/ele
illuhelge troller lvl 50 illu/rad
Wiederbelebter helge nk lvl 50 bs/reg
Maennerschreack nightwidow lvl 44
Quantenjaeger ws lvl 3
First of all, Hover has no tohit penalty associated with it being active. That's kind of the point: it's combat flight. The only power within the flight pool that has a tohit penalty is Group Flight, but that only applies to your nearby allies.
Second, Personal Forcefield isn't really going to be turned into a personal shield power in the vein that you speak of specifically because it would be so easy to circumvent (unless you're talking about a giant tohit debuff such a -75%, at which point it begs the question of why even bother allowing the ability to attack). It's not an issue of "pros and cons". It's a question of balance.
Third, the "best" FF build is highly debatable, especially if you're talking about a build or simply a powerset combination. Where builds are concerned, the question of what you're trying to accomplish is going to have a large enough impact on the state of "best" that it's impossible to simply state a single build is best. For powerset combinations, it depends on what kind of synergy you're looking for. */Sonic provides offensive advantage and has synergy in the sense that FF/* has very low animation time requirements. */Dark provides synergy in the form of -tohit to compliment FF/*'s +def (though, the -tohit isn't that spectacular against harder targets, nor is it particularly useful when you consider how easy it is for FF/* to softcap everyone with only Maneuvers).
Here's an IO build I've got for FF/Sonic. It's softcapped to range, can softcap all allies indefinitely, runs the Shriek>Scream>Shout attack string, and is infinitely endurance sustainable with WoC turned off. It's probably not going to be the best for soloing (though it will do so quite admirably), but it'll be an incredible force multiplier on teams (not to mention that it'll make everyone on your team nigh upon unkillable).
Code:
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Quote:
Don't sell the combination short. It's VERY handy in high defense debuff situations like ITFs and Ship Raids, it allows team members to roam outside of dispersion bubble and remain at the soft cap, and all the to hit debuffs self stack, which is different from many secondary power effects.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
*/Dark provides synergy in the form of -tohit to compliment FF/*'s +def (though, the -tohit isn't that spectacular against harder targets, nor is it particularly useful when you consider how easy it is for FF/* to softcap everyone with only Maneuvers).
|
It also puts out a respectable amount of AoE Damage (for a defender secondary) and can keep an entire spawn immobilized.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Thank you all very much for your answers.
*points to miniguide in sig*
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
One point to remember about being able to soft cap FF with IOs is that that's with IOs. It provides no benefit to the low level FF Defender, or the one that doesn't have tons of influence. 10-15% more Defense wouldn't break anything, and the IOs could be spent on other benefits.
Also, even if you soft cap Defense, you still have no Resistance, and you still have no healing. You still have to go to the Power Pool for Tough and Aid Self.
That being said, what FF Defenders need for themselves is offense more than defense.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
One point to remember about being able to soft cap FF with IOs is that that's with IOs. It provides no benefit to the low level FF Defender, or the one that doesn't have tons of influence. 10-15% more Defense wouldn't break anything, and the IOs could be spent on other benefits.
Also, even if you soft cap Defense, you still have no Resistance, and you still have no healing. You still have to go to the Power Pool for Tough and Aid Self. That being said, what FF Defenders need for themselves is offense more than defense. |
I agree Jade_Dragon.
Adding a -res debuff to Force Bolt would be really Nice
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
Well, except that encouraging people to knock foes around more often might not be in the best interest of teaming. |
Originally Posted by Biospark
Adding a -res debuff to Force Bolt would be really Nice
|
I don't think I'm going to worry about where the offensive boost should be at this point. I do think a +Damage is more in concept than -Res, if your power is "force" it makes sense you should be able to put more force behind your attacks, and -Res is the speciality of Sonic. But I would not be opposed to, say, having Detention Field (and Sonic Cage) radiate a -Res debuff around the imprisoned foe, (maybe a -Spd as well, as if the surrounding foes are partially restrained) in order to give its effect more usefulness to a team.
I can think of lots of other possibilities, though.
I have two questions about FF Defenders.
First, what are the pros and cons of making the personal force field something that can be attacked out of even with a reduced amount of defense and an amount of reduced accuracy similar to that of hover.
Second, what would be the best build for a FF Defender.