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Personally I thought it was over when we got to the [summon.shamwow] and [summon.zorbeez] lines on page 3. Then again, I already stated my opinion that Another_Fan isn't interested in reality on that same page when the thread was resurrected. I do have the admire the tenacity of whoever's at the keyboard. Reminds me of a Renault Clio clamped to the Vicar's leg.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
What thread are YOU reading? This one got dumb on page one.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
The animation system has clearly defined inputs and outputs. Someone should be able to write something that iterates over the input combinations and validates that it gives the correct output.
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Unfortunately, its not trivial to give a script the ability to tell when the animation system generates the "wrong" output. For any set of inputs, it always generates *some* output. Furthermore, because animations are reused often, its impossible to tell simply by name that a particular power or other action is calling the wrong animation simply because of a name mismatch.
It *is* possible, now that I think about it, to determine what every possible combination of inputs will generate in terms of sequencers, and then compare that to what a future build of the game generates to see if there are discrepancies in the way the sequencers are called. The complexity of the problem would be high, though, because you'd want to make sure you dealt with every possible mode and bit combination, plus all interruptible situations.
Hmm.
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I find it funny you ignored the first part of my post. Or predictable. Whatever.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/fea...nes/index.html
If you go with their first entry there, Cadillac V-8-6-4 and the unmentioned problem that it had with occasionally shutting down while on the highway, it kind of undercuts the idea that designing an automobile is less complex than writing a program. I am sure there are more. In GM's case they let a product go into production that wasn't fully tested and probably failed to listen to anyone that was saying so. Do I feel that automotive design is complex, yes. Do I feel that automobiles are complex systems with many interacting systems ? Yes. Was I driving a Cadilac then ? Yes that's how I know about this. Will I again ? No, These days I drive an Acura, I hear GM has its quality up to par again, ehh so what. Just another note, I see the new Fords incorporate a system from Microsoft these days. The jokes almost write themselves. If for whatever reason these cause significant difficulties do you think the software is difficult reason will hold water ? |
Anyway, I never said car making isn't complex. In fact, it just gets more complex. But you example didn't refute my remark about software coding vs. cars. Your example talked about an issue where modification to a part caused that one part to not work reliably. It didn't cause issues with parts whose only real connection is they are on the same car.
As for the architectural comparison - buildings in the real world fallow the same physics system, all of them. Not so with code in different programs.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Personally I thought it was over when we got to the [summon.shamwow] and [summon.zorbeez] lines on page 3. Then again, I already stated my opinion that Another_Fan isn't interested in reality on that same page when the thread was resurrected. I do have the admire the tenacity of whoever's at the keyboard. Reminds me of a Renault Clio clamped to the Vicar's leg.
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Its not a who but a what. Its an update to a variant of Eliza, that I wrote way back when. I used to let programmers type their excuses into it and let it reply. This was an upgrade to my earlier system of flash cards. Quite superior as it let me look at the resumes on my desk.
The funny thing is while hiring programmers has gone through ups and downs in terms of difficulty, hiring programmers you actually want to have on your project seems remarkably constant in terms of difficulty.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
I find it funny you ignored the first part of my post. Or predictable. Whatever.
Anyway, I never said car making isn't complex. In fact, it just gets more complex. But you example didn't refute my remark about software coding vs. cars. Your example talked about an issue where modification to a part caused that one part to not work reliably. It didn't cause issues with parts whose only real connection is they are on the same car. As for the architectural comparison - buildings in the real world fallow the same physics system, all of them. Not so with code in different programs. |
I didn't ignore it. It is just impossible to provide a meaningful response to, and I hardly dispute the gist of it. Your statement essentially said "automated load testing isn't perfect". Yes this is so. Should load testing have caught the issue ? Seems likely. The problem was well defined and clearly dependent on load as low volume servers weren't being hit. (That is anecdotal)
But given that Uberguy is apparently in possession of information that they don't do automated load testing in any meaningful way it seems responding to your statement would have been even more foolish than making it was for you.
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It is if the building owner is only willing to budget the time, money and personal of the cleaning staff for the job.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
So very true.
Of course if architecture operated on the same standards as software engineering, spontaneous building collapses would be excused by the complexity of the discipline. |
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Actually, we do know they don't have this sort of thing. They talked about it a little bit at the latest HeroCon.
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Are there any links to this ?
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
It is if the building owner is only willing to budget the time, money and personal of the cleaning staff for the job.
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And has tenants willing to forgo peaceable enjoyment of the facility.
I'll actually go ahead and take a stab at replying to this question, before I go ahead and lock the thread.
The questions "Do we have Any QA Left?" "Do we employ the proper forms of automated or manual testing?" and "Whats that growing between my toes, and why does it itch so much?" are all pretty irrelevant to you folks in reality. The bigger questions are "Are we making you happy, and if not what will make you happy?". That's the bottom line, how we get it done is our business and we need to keep focused on that.
Part of the issue is communication difficulties. A lot of times we keep certain communications vague, because the effect of communicating information is either non-useful and confusing or actually harmful to the community. Because of our communication priorities, certain assumptions are made on the part of our users as to what the problems actually are. These may or may not be valid, but most of the discussion in this thread is centered around these assumptions or logical outgrowths of these assumptions combined with the experiences relating to these assumptions. This is natural and is a constant area in which my team seeks to refine our practices to improve.
Technical communication is especially difficult because of the diverse nature of the community being communicated to. Similar to any other discipline that uses it's own form of jargon, the most severe miscommunications occur when any form of jargon is used with others with a different understanding of the jargon in question (related disciplines are the worst in this because they use specific technical terms that have differing meanings in two very close fields).
When we create messaging about what is going on with the game, we have to create it specifically to communicate the correct idea to the greatest number of people without confusing them or giving them information that will be misconstrued or have the wrong emphasis placed on it. We're not perfect at this, but don't expect detailed technical information to be generally available because of the wider audience we are communicating with.
I have a number of great anecdotes from working here that I'd love to share, but won't not because you guys wouldn't enjoy them but because without the larger context of knowing how Paragon Studios works internally you'd have no way of processing the information meaningfully and would get completely wrong ideas about how things work around here. Ideas that might lead to more threads like this.
I'll let you know that the last rollback wasn't caused by something that any automated test could have caught. What it was was so obscure it's almost mind-boggling. It happens, and makes people unhappy. We don't want to make people unhappy, it's our job to not make them unhappy, but we don't always succeed and this time we didn't. We'll work harder in the future, and that's about all we can say.
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