Well, if I were to drop two powers from the secondary on an Ice/Ice, it would probably be the two sword powers. They are two of the weaker attacks, actually, in terms of performance, and since you're stuck with Frozen Fists, they'd be the two I'd go with.
That said, since you didn't mention the Primary, Permafrost can be dropped if you need it to be, as well. While it's a great IO holder, and the slow resistance can be nice at times, it doesn't do too much for you on its own, and can be dropped if you want one of the swords (and if you do take one of the swords, the normal Ice Sword tends to be the better choice over time).
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Build-up is an auto-drop. Job of a tank is to take damage, not dish it out.
I would also skip Ice Sword.
If I had to drop 2 from the offense it would be Ice Sword and Ice Patch but I am not a Guru so take that info as a pinch of salt. Might I ask what you would be dropping the two powers for?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
This is the build for mine. The PvP +3% Defense piece is superfluous. I don't actually have it or all of the purples at the moment. He's a Tanker, but I wanted to squeak a little more damage out of him, hence the bonuses from sets. Honestly, this build would be more accurately called an Ice Armor / Ice Blast Tanker.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Catharctic: Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Arctic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(3), LkGmblr-Def(3), LkGmblr-Rchg+(5)
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(7), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 2: Hoarfrost -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal(11), Dct'dW-Rchg(11), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 4: Chilling Embrace -- ImpSwft-Dam%(A)
Level 6: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 10: Taunt -- Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(13), Zinger-Acc/Rchg(15), Zinger-Taunt/Rng(15), Zinger-Dam%(17)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(17), LkGmblr-Def(19), LkGmblr-Rchg+(19)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Health -- Mrcl-Heal(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(21), Numna-Heal(21), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(23), RgnTis-Regen+(23)
Level 18: Glacial Armor -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(25), LkGmblr-Def(25), LkGmblr-Rchg+(27)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(29), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(29), P'Shift-End%(31)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 24: Ice Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 26: Energy Absorption -- Zinger-Dam%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(33), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(34), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(34)
Level 28: Boxing -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(36), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 30: Tough -- HO:Ribo(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(36), GA-3defTpProc(37)
Level 32: Hibernate -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(37), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(37), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(39), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(39)
Level 35: Weave -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(39), LkGmblr-Def(40), LkGmblr-Rchg+(40)
Level 38: Frozen Aura -- FtnHyp-Plct%(A), Oblit-Dmg(40), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(42), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(42), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 41: Block of Ice -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(43), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Lock-%Hold(45)
Level 44: Ice Blast -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(46), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(46), Apoc-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Ice Storm -- Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Ragnrk-Knock%(50)
Level 49: Icicles -- Oblit-Acc/Rchg(A), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(50), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
- 29% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 29% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 29% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 29% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 29% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 29% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 29% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 29% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 6% Defense(Smashing)
- 6% Defense(Lethal)
- 6% Defense(Fire)
- 6% Defense(Cold)
- 6% Defense(Energy)
- 6% Defense(Negative)
- 6% Defense(Psionic)
- 6% Defense(Melee)
- 6% Defense(Ranged)
- 6% Defense(AoE)
- 4% Enhancement(Heal)
- 65% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 51% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 15% FlySpeed
- 344.4 HP (18.4%) HitPoints
- 15% JumpHeight
- 15% JumpSpeed
- MezResist(Immobilize) 6.6%
- MezResist(Stun) 4.4%
- MezResist(Terrorized) 4.95%
- 14% (0.23 End/sec) Recovery
- 90% (7.04 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 3.78% Resistance(Fire)
- 3.78% Resistance(Cold)
- 15% RunSpeed
Code:
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Quote:
Just because the "job" of a Tanker is to take damage, doesn't mean that they can't dish it out.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Build-up is an auto-drop. Job of a tank is to take damage, not dish it out.
I would also skip Ice Sword. |
Especially because doing more damage helps build Threat. It's also good for helping with those pesky -ToHit debuffs.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Ice Patch is a great power for a Tanker. Adds a great amount of survivability to a Tanker. Sure, the cast time is kinda long, but it's still a good power. I'd probably go so far to say that if you're not going to take Ice Patch, you probably are better off going with another secondary. At that point, other sets have just as much control or more, and better damage.
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
If I had to drop 2 from the offense it would be Ice Sword and Ice Patch but I am not a Guru so take that info as a pinch of salt. Might I ask what you would be dropping the two powers for?
|
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
As shown in my posted build, Ice Patch and Frozen Aura were the only things worth taking for me (outside of the required Frozen Fists). Pretty much anything that doesn't have KB protection is falling if it's near me. Ice Patch covers it's maximum, and a lot of the rest are falling down from the Ragnarok Proc in Ice Storm.
|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Ice Patch is a great power for a Tanker. Adds a great amount of survivability to a Tanker. Sure, the cast time is kinda long, but it's still a good power. I'd probably go so far to say that if you're not going to take Ice Patch, you probably are better off going with another secondary. At that point, other sets have just as much control or more, and better damage.
|
Yikes, no, don't drop Ice Patch, nor should you drop Ice Sword or Build Up, but these two are debatable at least.
See the guide in my sig, but the tl;dr version:
Essential Ice Melee powers are Frost, FA, Ice Patch, Freezing Touch.
Should really have: Ice Sword
Forced to take, but optional to slot: Frozen Fists
Optional: BU & Taunt, depending on your style of play and if you want an easy/cheap IO set mule.
By all means skip: GIS. Horrible power.
If you want to do any damage at all, you'll take and slot (for damage) Frost, FA & Freezing Touch. Ice Sword is your filler, though it really becomes a bread & butter attack until an epic blast can be had. If you're really short on slots, you can just slot FF instead, but man, it's a crappy attack. IS isn't much better, but it *is* better. Your heavy hitters are Frost, FA & FT though, and by a long shot. W/those 3 and the correct style of play (AoEs, lots of them), you'll outdamage most of the other tanker sets, and with great mitigation to boot.
In the guid, I go into the mechanics of explaining the above points, so I won't repeat it here, but if you don't take the "essential powers" from above, there's almost no reason to even play Ice Melee unless you're really going for concept.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
I don't agree with that, but to each his own.
|
Originally Posted by dave_p
but if you don't take the "essential powers" from above, there's almost no reason to even play Ice Melee unless you're really going for concept.
|
Quote:
^^^^^^| Especially because doing more damage helps build Threat. It's also good for helping with those pesky -ToHit debuffs. |
damage =/= gauntlet
hit = gauntlet.
Damage amounts have no bearing on how much taunt is built. Actually hitting determines gauntlet. Yes, there are cases where a build up power would be nice, but for somebody whose playing a tank to tank, it's the first power to be dropped.
^^^^^^
Aett Thorn has it correct. - Castle
Quote:
This is wrong.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
damage =/= gauntlet
hit = gauntlet. Damage amounts have no bearing on how much taunt is built. Actually hitting determines gauntlet. Yes, there are cases where a build up power would be nice, but for somebody whose playing a tank to tank, it's the first power to be dropped. |
Threat = Damage * DebuffMod * AI Mod * RangeMod * AT Mod * (1000 * TauntDurationRemaining)
That is straight from Castle.
If you deal twice the damage to the enemy, you have twice the Threat rating.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Interesting. This is quite literally the first time I've ever heard of this. I've gone ahead and poked Castle to drop by the thread and comment on this. If what you say is true, it's not common knowledge for the game, and it's nigh impossible to track down and verify.
|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
This is wrong.
Threat = Damage * DebuffMod * AI Mod * RangeMod * AT Mod * (1000 * TauntDurationRemaining) That is straight from Castle. If you deal twice the damage to the enemy, you have twice the Threat rating. |
Quote:
This came out about two years ago, when Castle and I think Ghost Widow (mostly Ghost Widow, since she was new at the time) went diving through the data, and they found that the Threat mechanism worked completely different than what was thought at the time.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Interesting. This is quite literally the first time I've ever heard of this. I've gone ahead and poked Castle to drop by the thread and comment on this. If what you say is true, it's not common knowledge for the game, and it's nigh impossible to track down and verify.
|
At the time, it was thought that Taunt was a binary mechanism for the most part, where you needed twice the Taunt of another Tanker to pull aggro off of him. While this functioned in a great majority of cases, there were closet cases where it didn't seem to work right.
Many Tanker forumites (and some from other forums, too), took part in testing this when Castle brought it to my attention. I think I bugged Castle a lot with my questions on the subject at the time. It was found to work out pretty much as that formula describes. Tankers are so great at holding aggro due to two factors: 1) They have the highest AT mod, and more importantly, 2) They usually have much higher TauntDurationRemaining than other ATs at most points, giving them 1000s more Threat at a given time.
This knowledge isn't as common as it was when it first came out, and in normal gameplay, it doesn't matter. So I'm not surprised that you haven't heard of it. But it is how it works.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Castle sent me a PM back that you are correct. I therefor stand corrected.
Quote:
I do have Ice patch but I can live without it. I do use it but not if there is something more important to see to. The one power I don't have is tier 2. I have the rest. I chose /Ice to go with Ice/. With or without Icepatch the concept still remains.
|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Ice Patch is a great power for a Tanker. Adds a great amount of survivability to a Tanker. Sure, the cast time is kinda long, but it's still a good power. I'd probably go so far to say that if you're not going to take Ice Patch, you probably are better off going with another secondary. At that point, other sets have just as much control or more, and better damage.
|
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
i like the ice/stone idea..if u ever played one or saw them in action..the synergy of knockdowns and end recovery work nice together. i just wish tremor had faster activation..but hurl boulder is too fun. just choose clear wire frames for the stone attacks.
Quote:
Just to elaborate a little I guess. I usually plan my builds for long term, action at level cap. As far as needing to drop two powers from secondary, I have plans for adding some pool selection, and possible adding the Ice Blast Epic (requires one prereq IIRC)|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
If I had to drop 2 from the offense it would be Ice Sword and Ice Patch but I am not a Guru so take that info as a pinch of salt. Might I ask what you would be dropping the two powers for?
|
Been playing the tank at very low level just a little while ago, and I really am concidering my original idea of reskinning /stone. The only thing is I really plan on working Ice Patch in on the /Ice, just because I love it on my 50 Ice/Ice Blaster.
Still up in the air I guess. I love the look of Ice, but it looks very underperforming. Wish I knew a high level Ice X2 on Virtue to observe.
[Edit: Oh, my plan is full-bore tanking, not really a 'concept' character]
Quote:
I see, I didn't see before when you've already said:|
Originally Posted by Tyrantula
[Edit: Oh, my plan is full-bore tanking, not really a 'concept' character]
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tyrantula
I have a sweet concept for an Ice/Ice tank, but I need to lose two powers from the offense. I have been over Mid's doing different alternative builds, but I really need is a hands on player to tell me what I can lose just for the secondary.
I had some of my friends just tell me to go with a /Stone for concept/look using the crystal appearance but I love pairing sets. I have to do this with /Ice. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
My bad ND, when I say "concept" in my way, I just mean character look/costume/ect. Not necessarily overall. I should have clarified.
Thanks everyone for your help!
Quote:
This is the part to remember most, je_saist.
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Aett Thorn has it correct. - Castle
|
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Ive been working on my first Tanker after taking 5 Brutes to 50 and didn't want to repeat myself. So I made an Ice/Ice since brutes don't have either.
I have one question about Ice Melee. Why does everyone hate Greater Ice Sword? According to Mids this is the highest damaging attack. is it just the cast time and recharge that make people prefer ice sword? I skipped IS on my way up to 40 so Ive never experienced it.
Quote:
It's horrible for DPS, and DPA (I think). Basically, it is the highest-damaging attack in the set, barely beating out Frozen Touch. However, the Lethal component to it makes it a bit worse than FT, since it's a more resisted damage type. Also, the longer animation, and longer recharge time, and worse secondary effect, make it not that useful. Pretty much every other single-target attack in the Ice Melee line is better than GIS over time.
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Originally Posted by Von_Doom
Ive been working on my first Tanker after taking 5 Brutes to 50 and didn't want to repeat myself. So I made an Ice/Ice since brutes don't have either.
I have one question about Ice Melee. Why does everyone hate Greater Ice Sword? According to Mids this is the highest damaging attack. is it just the cast time and recharge that make people prefer ice sword? I skipped IS on my way up to 40 so Ive never experienced it. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I'm a vet of not-so-epic proportions, and no stranger to tanking. That said, here is my question to the tank gurus.
I have a sweet concept for an Ice/Ice tank, but I need to lose two powers from the offense. I have been over Mid's doing different alternative builds, but I really need is a hands on player to tell me what I can lose just for the secondary.
I had some of my friends just tell me to go with a /Stone for concept/look using the crystal appearance but I love pairing sets. I have to do this with /Ice.
So what really performs lackluster in the offense? I'm sure someone will say everything, hehe, but I just need to ex-out two powers.
Advice welcome, build layouts not necessary. Just tell me what I can drop without any problems.
Thanks guys/girls
~T