I don't know about your math, but I believe the reason AV's don't run out of your burn patch is because Burn's terrorize mag isn't high enough to overcome their resistances to it.
I'm pretty sure, anyway.
If Mids' is right, you're averaging 341.8 damage in (roundup(2.03/.132)+1)*.132 = 2.244 seconds for 152 DPS.
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Thanks Werner. I see the problem I had. Forgot to turn off tactics (which had Guassion's in it).
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Originally Posted by Werner
If Mids' is right, you're averaging 341.8 damage in (roundup(2.03/.132)+1)*.132 = 2.244 seconds for 152 DPS.
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Heh. I always remove that IO unless I'm factoring def numbers.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Thanks Werner. I see the problem I had. Forgot to turn off tactics (which had Guassion's in it).
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I think the use of burn on Bosses/EBs/AVs is a smart use given your primary (ELM) as the ST damage is lacking a little bit, the DPE for Burn is nice.
Burn isn't auto-hit and can't be enhanced for accuracy, so you have to keep that in mind when calculating DPS. Not sure if tohit buffs or global accuracy affect it.
Global accuracy and tohit buffs will affect Burn. Considering this, Claws'/ Follow Up will be very beneficial for Burn.
I feel like making a Kat/Fire all of a sudden.
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But it can take PBAOE sets that have ACC as part of the IO |
Originally Posted by Galactiman
Burn isn't auto-hit and can't be enhanced for accuracy, so you have to keep that in mind when calculating DPS. Not sure if tohit buffs or global accuracy affect it.
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Plus I'm taking tactics, and the build I have planned has +ACC as well.I was just trying to figure out how I add in the DPS of Burn to the ST DPS of Electric Melee.
Havok Punch (note: Charged Brawl here would increase the DPS by 2-4 DPS, but I can't make it nonstop with CB on my build) -> Jacob's Ladder -> Chain Induction -> Fire Blast -> Repeat
According to mids, gives better DPS than, CB -> JL -> CB -> CI -> Repeat (Electric Melee's best DPS chain without using outside attacks).
I'm hoping the 32-35% Melee Defense & 20% Range/AOE Defense will be enough to do all the fun things I never hear about /Fire Armor Scrappers doing
And with Burn, make it pretty fast.
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yes and no. Burn occurs over 10 seconds. If we assume only a single burn active at a time it is |
Originally Posted by Werner
If Mids' is right, you're averaging 341.8 damage in (roundup(2.03/.132)+1)*.132 = 2.244 seconds for 152 DPS.
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2.244+10 = 12.244
346.8/12.244 = 28.3 dps
Additionally if you had a build that was producing 150 dps from your single targets you interrupt that for 2.244 seconds meaning you need to make up 2.244*150 = 336.6 lost damage.
If your burn is doing 346.8 damage it isn't until the very last couple ticks that you are even gaining anything and what you do gain is pretty small.
If you have an attack chain gap then burn is great for that. Burn also has tremendous dpe if that is a concern for your build. While FE is up, burn is a much more attractive interjection into your attack chain.
*If your st attack chain is seamless and produces 154 dps or less then burn can be beneficial. If you produce more dps than that you need to weigh the pros and cons.
*154 is just based on the example numbers given for burn.
Edit: whether you resolve burn's damage in its cast time or over the life doesn't really make much difference for whether or not you'd use it in a scenario where a static target is present, but looking at it over the lifetime does help clarify what is occurring.
When talking about a single attack, I believe the consensus is that DPS means "damage per Arcanatime second". So that's what I report for single attacks. I'm not saying that Burn adds 152 DPS to your chain's DPS. Obviously you understand that. But I would hope that it was also obvious to anyone interested in DPS discussions. I suppose it might need to be clarified occasionally for people unfamiliar with our terminology. But hopefully if they were interested but confused ("What the hell is Arcanatime???"), they would ask.
As far as adding or subtracting from the damage of your chain, Burn and other DoTs aren't special cases. If you have ANY attack that does 152 DPS, and you have a chain that does over 152 DPS, using that attack is unlikely to increase your overall DPS. Buffing attacks are a notable exception.
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I wasn't intending to contradict what you posted and that's why I edited as it came across like I was. I was just expanding on what was happening because it could potentially be misleading. ie burn does 150 dps and burn lasts for 10 seconds so does 1500 damage... but that isn't the case.|
Originally Posted by Werner
When talking about a single attack, I believe the consensus is that DPS means "damage per Arcanatime second". So that's what I report for single attacks. I'm not saying that Burn adds 152 DPS to your chain's DPS. Obviously you understand that. But I would hope that it was also obvious to anyone interested in DPS discussions. I suppose it might need to be clarified occasionally for people unfamiliar with our terminology. But hopefully if they were interested but confused ("What the hell is Arcanatime???"), they would ask.
As far as adding or subtracting from the damage of your chain, Burn and other DoTs aren't special cases. If you have ANY attack that does 152 DPS, and you have a chain that does over 152 DPS, using that attack is unlikely to increase your overall DPS. Buffing attacks are a notable exception. |
I of course used the correct arcanatime as well, that is standard these days. All I actually did was help show at what point burn would become beneficial rather than just a yes/no state.
OK, gotcha, and I agree with what you're saying. It highlights one of the many differences between DPS and actual damage output while playing the actual game. Better DPS is definitely not always the same thing as better damage output when you can have multiple targets and those targets can die.
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Wait. So if I read this right. Using Burn isn't helpful at all on a Single Target when your DPS is 154+?|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
yes and no. Burn occurs over 10 seconds. If we assume only a single burn active at a time it is
2.244+10 = 12.244 346.8/12.244 = 28.3 dps Additionally if you had a build that was producing 150 dps from your single targets you interrupt that for 2.244 seconds meaning you need to make up 2.244*150 = 336.6 lost damage. If your burn is doing 346.8 damage it isn't until the very last couple ticks that you are even gaining anything and what you do gain is pretty small. If you have an attack chain gap then burn is great for that. Burn also has tremendous dpe if that is a concern for your build. While FE is up, burn is a much more attractive interjection into your attack chain. *If your st attack chain is seamless and produces 154 dps or less then burn can be beneficial. If you produce more dps than that you need to weigh the pros and cons. *154 is just based on the example numbers given for burn. Edit: whether you resolve burn's damage in its cast time or over the life doesn't really make much difference for whether or not you'd use it in a scenario where a static target is present, but looking at it over the lifetime does help clarify what is occurring. |
Or it only becomes useful when using it with FE?
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Well, maybe that's what we said, but we're oversimplifying. We're assuming no global sources of damage and just looking at the power. But a good amount of your DPS in practice will be from global sources that would buff Burn as well, be that Build Up, Fiery Embrace, Assault, IO bonuses, or whatever. So you can't just compare your current DPS (including all those things) to Burn's DPS (excluding all those things).
In YOUR build, Burn will do more than just 152 DPS, possibly much more. How much more depends on your global damage bonuses and on how fast your Build UP and Fiery Embrace recharge, and probably on other factors as well.
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Well with the slotting you gave it does ~154 dps so if you happen to do more than that with your attack chain then it will be subtracting from your output. Though worth mentioning is that it has extremely good damage per endurance and is pure fire damage, which may be worth factoring into your scenario as your primary is smash/nrg.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Wait. So if I read this right. Using Burn isn't helpful at all on a Single Target when your DPS is 154+?
Or it only becomes useful when using it with FE? |
FE certainly helps it because FE boost fire damage by 125% for 20 seconds and all other damage by 100% for 10 seconds, so with FE up burn will be doing 247.5 dps, which you'd need to see if your dps generated from your attacks while FE is up is higher or lower than to determine if burn would be worthwhile casting during the first 10 seconds.
During the second half it will likely be much better than your normal attacks because FE will no longer be boosting them, but will still be affecting burn.
Unfortunately this kind of examination goes a bit deeper than just looking at avg dps because you are having to make critical decisions during short buff windows about what benefits your output most.
It's kind of neat when you get right down to it. I remember looking at one version of sonic/cold I made for a corruptor and casting aim was actually causing a decrease in my sustained dps vs hard targets because it was taking away from the -res stacking and proc occurrences only to add a relatively small damage buff. Not really relevant to you of course, but it was neat.
One thing to be careful of though (if I'm remembering this correctly) is that damage bonuses from IO's only last ~2 seconds and they just keep pulsing and pulsing. However, once that initial pulse fades it will no longer be affecting burn, which is an pretty big issue for brutes with fury.
Same with assault, it is only a 0.75 sec buff, it just pulses without any gaps. But after the first pulse it will no longer buff burn.
Hopefully you don't have to calculate this to the nth degree and the decision will be clear. ie your attack chain deals noticeably less or more dps than burn. When it is close and you are trying to squeeze out a bit more is when you find out how deep the rabbit hole really goes.
For some reason I recall reading somewhere that pets inherit buffs from their casters, but the time left on the buff does not matter. For example you could cast a pet with hasten active and it would get a 70% recharge buff for the pets duration instead of just 120 seconds.
I'm probably wrong though.
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Originally Posted by Lohenien
For some reason I recall reading somewhere that pets inherit buffs from their casters, but the time left on the buff does not matter. For example you could cast a pet with hasten active and it would get a 70% recharge buff for the pets duration instead of just 120 seconds.
I'm probably wrong though. |
pets no longer inherent any recharge, but no afaik buffs have always expired on them when the caster buff falls off (by always I mean since they have inherented caster states).I know old Lightning storm which used to inherent everything used to slow down when hasten dropped (or you were hit with -rech) and it used to hit harder while aim or other +dam buffs were up and hit less hard when they expired.
Burn definitely drops off with your buffs, just use it when rage crashes
...okay, so far, on the AVs I've gone up against (on teams), none of the AVs have ran out of the Burn patch.
FP TF AVs
Katie Hannon TF AV
Sciricco AV in bank mission
All on teams, and even when the AV wasn't held/immobilized, the AV wasn't running out of the patch.
Now maybe my math is wrong...but Burn slotted with lvl 50 set of Obiliteration is 240 DPS (with no build up or firey embrace).
So my question is, is my math wrong?
And if it isn't, and you can keep Burn patch up every time it recharges, would you just add it's damage to your attack chains to figure out your DPS?
Either way, having fun with my Elec/Fire, just trying to figure out how I'm going to slot her, and what she might be capable of doing once done.
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