I'm running +2x4 frankenslotted at 43, and while Arachnos missions are more dificult than most, and I am using occasional inspirations, I can't imagine that +2x8 would be so much harder as to require a seriously IO'd build. I could be wrong, of course, and if so, there are two more levels of difficulty to go.
Still, one of the big problems with Arachnos is that they're packing what seems to be a much higher than average amount of defense debuffs. I think that will unfairly play to Super Reflexes and to a lesser extent Shield Defense. But that's just theorizing. I suppose I should go try it with a bunch of characters and see, but I'm too focused on leveling up. Just my initial thoughts.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Just for giggles, try Longbow through Architect on that same setting.
Uh... that sounds painful. 
Reminds me of the WMD challenge, which was to run Gaussian's arc on invincible (+2x1), no temps, no inspirations, no deaths. Doable, but tougher than it may sound on the surface. Probably suicide on +2x8, but there has to be someone out there that can do it.
(Edit: Wait, no, it wasn't even invincible, because then Sefu whathisface spawned as an AV, so it was the next difficulty down, which today is +1x2. I've done the whole thing on invincible EXCEPT for him, though.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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That's the exact arc I was thinking of when I made the suggestion. I turned it all the way up with a team a couple weeks ago. Wow. That's a challenge.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Uh... that sounds painful.
Reminds me of the WMD challenge, which was to run Gaussian's arc on invincible (+2x1), no temps, no inspirations, no deaths. Doable, but tougher than it may sound on the surface. Probably suicide on +2x8, but there has to be someone out there that can do it. (Edit: Wait, no, it wasn't even invincible, because then Sefu whathisface spawned as an AV, so it was the next difficulty down, which today is +1x2. I've done the whole thing on invincible EXCEPT for him, though.) |
You basically have to depend on your attacks being mitigation, so it'd be all about the primary (imo).
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Maybe try those tests with a build you haven't seen beat it?
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Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
So, I have some issues with the RWZ Challenge as a stress test, just because it stresses certain builds more than others and doesn't give an acurate portrait of your character's capabilities, at least in my opinion.
I propose using a Arachnos Radio, set for +2/x8 as a new Stress test, using no temps/inspirations. I find that Arachnos at the high levels is a group that is punishing to all secondaries and is less weighted versus a certain secondary. |
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Been there, done that, yes, yes it does.| Still, one of the big problems with Arachnos is that they're packing what seems to be a much higher than average amount of defense debuffs. I think that will unfairly play to Super Reflexes and to a lesser extent Shield Defense |
If you end up with two tarentula mistresses and one fortunata mistress in a spawn, without DDR, you're going to get hit by 2 -30% defense debuffs (and the softcap won't help, as these debuffs recharge in 20s base and the fortunata buffs tohit).
The RWZ challenge is much more "balanced" than this, in my opinion - that is to say, still not enough to be a valid stress test. Different builds have different strengths and weaknesses and to accurately gauge performance each build should run his own stress tests. If the issue is comparing builds to other builds then doing a wide variety of tests is what you'd want to do, not just one.
Ignoring inspirations still would make all those tests invalid outside of a specific "no insp" scenario, seeing as the ingame reality is that insps drop, a lot, and considering insps reward faster kill speed while ignoring it means survivability is the only thing that matters.
Another issue with running an Arachnos Radio is that there is a BIG difference in the difficulty you'll face depending on the map. Keep trying until you get one of the cave maps that annoy me so much in game where you only kill a couple spawns and poof, you're done. I hate them because they're not even worth the travel time in zone, but they would make this challenge much easier.
That suggests to me that ANY mission-based challenge will have to be a specific map that everyone can access easily and quickly, which means either Ouroboros or AE.
On a different note, I'm going to back off on my "+2x4 is close to +2x8" comment, paraphrased from earlier. I briefly cranked up to +2x8 on a defense debuffing group and got owned hard (well, I ran away instead of dying, but I had to run away twice against the very first group, so I gave up and went back to +2x4, lesson learned).
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Oh, another weakness of most +2x8 missions - you can almost certainly plow through a single spawn in 3 minutes. That means unless there ARE defense debuffers, which give a couple secondaries an "unfair" advantage, then Invunerability + patience for the win. Unstoppable isn't an auto-win in the RWZ challenge. Unless you have HUGE damage output, you're going to have to deal with the crash during the fight. And if you DO have huge damage output, well, good job.
For comparison, notice how Arcanaville's challenge, despite being against low level enemies (designed for +2x1 maximum), will probably still give a lot of trouble to Invulnerability. The main boss is psionic, which is your weakness. But you can't just kill the main boss, or you'll get owned by multiple challenge spawns at once. I'm guessing you could pull it off by first clearing the map, then doing Unstoppable through each spawn, then running to the opposite side of the map to lose boss aggro, rinse and repeat. But at least there's a LITTLE bit of strategy involved other than patience. And it wouldn't surprise me if it still isn't as easy as I'm suggesting, since Arcanaville seems to have one of the best understandings of, well, everything in this game.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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When I told my friend about the Arcana challenge he immediately tried it on his invuln scrapper, and died just by fighting the psi boss. He didn't even get to spawn the first wave. It was hilarious.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Oh, another weakness of most +2x8 missions - you can almost certainly plow through a single spawn in 3 minutes. That means unless there ARE defense debuffers, which give a couple secondaries an "unfair" advantage, then Invunerability + patience for the win. Unstoppable isn't an auto-win in the RWZ challenge. Unless you have HUGE damage output, you're going to have to deal with the crash during the fight. And if you DO have huge damage output, well, good job.
For comparison, notice how Arcanaville's challenge, despite being against low level enemies (designed for +2x1 maximum), will probably still give a lot of trouble to Invulnerability. The main boss is psionic, which is your weakness. But you can't just kill the main boss, or you'll get owned by multiple challenge spawns at once. I'm guessing you could pull it off by first clearing the map, then doing Unstoppable through each spawn, then running to the opposite side of the map to lose boss aggro, rinse and repeat. But at least there's a LITTLE bit of strategy involved other than patience. And it wouldn't surprise me if it still isn't as easy as I'm suggesting, since Arcanaville seems to have one of the best understandings of, well, everything in this game. |
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LOL! Good to know that Invuln isn't an exception to the rule of getting owned by Arcanaville's challenge. |
Originally Posted by Kahlan_
When I told my friend about the Arcana challenge he immediately tried it on his invuln scrapper, and died just by fighting the psi boss. He didn't even get to spawn the first wave. It was hilarious.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Ok, I understand how defense debuffs would automatically lopside the challenge towards Shield and SR (though, my level 41 SS/Shield was getting owned pretty hard, even on +0/x8, but he isn't slotted for DDR yet and he doesn't have Weave/Grant Cover yet...). So, if someone was going to make a challenge that would be challenging yet not impossible, what types of debuffs would I look for? Are there any auto-hit debuffs that would be a good place to start for an /SR that wouldn't cripple builds without DDR?
I want to make a mission using mostly in-game enemies from different groups to help stress-test builds. Something that can be scaled to +0/x8 or +2/x8 and be runnable by well-built Scrappers so we could go by judging time as well as completion. I also want to create something where the different builds would have priority targets within the spawn. Invul, SR, Shield and... well most everything but /Elec would want to take out a Sapper first, etc.
I'm willing to make the mission, I just need suggestions.
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Just combine Arachnos with Longbow in a single mission. The irritation of multiple defense debuffs with those hideous -res grenades.
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Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
Ok, I understand how defense debuffs would automatically lopside the challenge towards Shield and SR (though, my level 41 SS/Shield was getting owned pretty hard, even on +0/x8, but he isn't slotted for DDR yet and he doesn't have Weave/Grant Cover yet...). So, if someone was going to make a challenge that would be challenging yet not impossible, what types of debuffs would I look for? Are there any auto-hit debuffs that would be a good place to start for an /SR that wouldn't cripple builds without DDR?
I want to make a mission using mostly in-game enemies from different groups to help stress-test builds. Something that can be scaled to +0/x8 or +2/x8 and be runnable by well-built Scrappers so we could go by judging time as well as completion. I also want to create something where the different builds would have priority targets within the spawn. Invul, SR, Shield and... well most everything but /Elec would want to take out a Sapper first, etc. I'm willing to make the mission, I just need suggestions. |
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Ran it with my kat/SR at +2/x6/bosses/no AVs when i16 launched, to test her capabilities and see how the new system looked and it was very challenging. Definitely had to use green inspirations (no Accolades as she doesn't have Magus) since I haven't gotten the Aid Self route on her (only time I've kinda regretted that decision since I don't solo AVs). |
Originally Posted by Werner
Uh... that sounds painful.
Reminds me of the WMD challenge, which was to run Gaussian's arc on invincible (+2x1), no temps, no inspirations, no deaths. Doable, but tougher than it may sound on the surface. Probably suicide on +2x8, but there has to be someone out there that can do it. (Edit: Wait, no, it wasn't even invincible, because then Sefu whathisface spawned as an AV, so it was the next difficulty down, which today is +1x2. I've done the whole thing on invincible EXCEPT for him, though.) |
Sefu was long and boring but not that difficult (yet close, of course)since you have retreat routes in that mission, giving you some measure of breathing room.
Not sure if Aidself would have been useful given how the 3 deaths happened (trying to pull and getting 2 groups in the face with a vanguard wizard getting lucky) but you never know.
Can't imagine how it'd be at x8, except super painful.
@Viper Kinji
Currently working on:
Turtle Snapper - SD/MA/Ice Tanker
There's plenty of methods to move and pull and use tricks to divide spawns. Normally we don't talk about them on this forum because we're all gung-ho stand and fight type players... but that other stuff is certainly not illegal. Prior to IOs, I used to play a dark/regen scrapper with teleport foe, air superiority, touch of fear, and a bag full of hit-and-run tricks to basically attempt to never get hit. There's no reason we can't employ those same guerilla tactics now with more sturdy toons. It's actually a lot of fun. A good understanding of mission geometry and NPC pathing and agro is a very powerful tool.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
I ran my DM/SR through the entrance to cimerora arc (rikti) at +4/+8.
It was a lot of fun, and required me to pay attention rather than mindlessly mash my attack chain and watch the numbers fly. Every single spawn can now be a rwz challenge!
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If it will make your friend feel better, show him this.|
Originally Posted by Kahlan_
When I told my friend about the Arcana challenge he immediately tried it on his invuln scrapper, and died just by fighting the psi boss. He didn't even get to spawn the first wave. It was hilarious.
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I wish I had a better video, but to be honest I spent most of my time laughing my butt off and wasn't paying attention to camera angles. Back in I14 beta, version 1.1 of the scrapper challenge had computers instead of the psi boss that you would click to spawn the challenge waves (a change to the MA forced me to use ambushes on bosses instead).
The challenge used to have three computers called "medium" and "high" and "ultra." I ditched "low" to save resources. "Medium" was comparable to the first wave of the current challenge, but a bit harder. "Hard" was comparable to the second wave of the current challenge, but definitely twice as hard and included nasty things like perception debuffs (which I removed a couple iterations ago after go-live).
Then there was Ultra. Hard was meant to challenge the best of the best. Ultra was meant to challenge the best of the best who cheat. Which is to say, under Ultra you were supposed to see if *anything* would let you beat it: inspirations, temp powers, invisible buffing friends - it was actually meant to challenge devs running signature AV-class characters with everything but The I Win button or Power Suppression running.
I got pohsyb to take a shot at it with his test server cheating-******* controller, which had every single primary and secondary controller power, including every set of controller pets. Honestly, in retrospect I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did: even with all of his controller powers he still only had controller health. I think if he had tanker health or AV health, it would have been different.
True story: initially pohsyb thought I was helping him. I was actually watching him to see how well he did: it didn't occur to me to help him, because I thought he had a decent chance to beat it solo with his super-controller. Actually, I don't think helping him would have changed the outcome: I drop dead about five seconds after the point where the video ends: even under Elude I barely last thirty seconds, and keep in mind the aggro cap is preventing everything from attacking me simultaneously.
Oh, and when the leading edge of the attack wave enters the picture, you see me get pushed off the container. That's not attackers with repel, that's attackers with confuse. Yeah, it used to be really nasty. The current version is actually quite a bit toned down from its psychopathic ancestor.
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I'm so jealous of his super controller
but stoked that I could complete it as intended with even a normal character 
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Not really, but SRs are more vulnerable to tohit buffs than most other things, and tohit buffs aren't resistable by SR scrappers. Pets have a base 75% chance to hit, so they are all effectively running +25% tohit buffs. Things with tactics or Aim are also going to cause much more hardship for defense-oriented player builds than most other things. If you wanted to make something that was explicitly designed to reduce the effectiveness of softcapping, that's where I would go (my scrapper challenge mission has pets for precisely that reason).|
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
Ok, I understand how defense debuffs would automatically lopside the challenge towards Shield and SR (though, my level 41 SS/Shield was getting owned pretty hard, even on +0/x8, but he isn't slotted for DDR yet and he doesn't have Weave/Grant Cover yet...). So, if someone was going to make a challenge that would be challenging yet not impossible, what types of debuffs would I look for? Are there any auto-hit debuffs that would be a good place to start for an /SR that wouldn't cripple builds without DDR?
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One comment on defense debuff resistance. I've always believed it shouldn't have been fully slottable as it currently is, but even so one way to reduce DDR to make it more "fair" as mitigation goes is to simply reduce the DDR cap from 0.95 (95%) to 0.9 (90%). The absolute *worst* that a defense debuff can do so something with no defense is to just about double incoming damage (because after that the attacker hits the tohit ceiling and it doesn't matter any more) and that occurs after about -50% debuff (really -45% debuff, and if the attacker has any accuracy than its a bit less than that). If the absolute best DDR that SR could slot for was 90%, then the amount of defense debuffing that would double incoming damage would be -5% (from an effective 45% defense to 40% defense)** and that would be reached after -50% stacked defense debuffs. That's at least within the realm of possibility (speaking about PvE here) and the high strength of that level of debuffing is compensated for somewhat by the still possible effect of cascade debuffing and by the fact that tohit buffs are out there as a completely separate and unresistable effect.
** this is an oversimplification for discussion purposes: it would take a very involved discussion to account for overstacking defense (which would put you above 45% defense - for which there is no damage mitigation benefit but a significant debuff protection benefit) and the effects of debuff avoidance vs cascading at high defense levels. I'm not ignoring those issues so much as I'm setting them aside here for simplicity for the moment.
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So, what my limited intelligence is taking from this is in designing a challenge that would be able to challenge all Scrappers more-or-less equally, I'd probably look at trying to balance for a small to-hit buff combined with a small source of defense debuff. Throw in a bit of to-hit and resistance debuff to taste.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Not really, but SRs are more vulnerable to tohit buffs than most other things, and tohit buffs aren't resistable by SR scrappers. Pets have a base 75% chance to hit, so they are all effectively running +25% tohit buffs. Things with tactics or Aim are also going to cause much more hardship for defense-oriented player builds than most other things. If you wanted to make something that was explicitly designed to reduce the effectiveness of softcapping, that's where I would go (my scrapper challenge mission has pets for precisely that reason).
One comment on defense debuff resistance. I've always believed it shouldn't have been fully slottable as it currently is, but even so one way to reduce DDR to make it more "fair" as mitigation goes is to simply reduce the DDR cap from 0.95 (95%) to 0.9 (90%). The absolute *worst* that a defense debuff can do so something with no defense is to just about double incoming damage (because after that the attacker hits the tohit ceiling and it doesn't matter any more) and that occurs after about -50% debuff (really -45% debuff, and if the attacker has any accuracy than its a bit less than that). If the absolute best DDR that SR could slot for was 90%, then the amount of defense debuffing that would double incoming damage would be -5% (from an effective 45% defense to 40% defense)** and that would be reached after -50% stacked defense debuffs. That's at least within the realm of possibility (speaking about PvE here) and the high strength of that level of debuffing is compensated for somewhat by the still possible effect of cascade debuffing and by the fact that tohit buffs are out there as a completely separate and unresistable effect. ** this is an oversimplification for discussion purposes: it would take a very involved discussion to account for overstacking defense (which would put you above 45% defense - for which there is no damage mitigation benefit but a significant debuff protection benefit) and the effects of debuff avoidance vs cascading at high defense levels. I'm not ignoring those issues so much as I'm setting them aside here for simplicity for the moment. |
Seems like a bit of a daunting challenge.
So, I have some issues with the RWZ Challenge as a stress test, just because it stresses certain builds more than others and doesn't give an acurate portrait of your character's capabilities, at least in my opinion.
I propose using a Arachnos Radio, set for +2/x8 as a new Stress test, using no temps/inspirations. I find that Arachnos at the high levels is a group that is punishing to all secondaries and is less weighted versus a certain secondary.