Round 3 P.P.

AT purity? Every AT that can use melee attacks has access to energy melee except scrappers. How is this AT purity? How is it not scrappish to punch things with or without energy?

Give SS and EM to scrappers.

Also, every AT that has buff/debuff powersets has access to Dark Miasma has it, except controllers.

That's my opinion. I'd like to see AT purity in sets, like I stated; Dark Miasma staying with Defenders. The difference between defenders and controllers are already just about negligible post 38.

Every AT except scrappers may have access to SOME individual energy melee powers, but not every AT has the energy melee set. If both tankers and scrappers each had the same power sets, the only reason I could think to chose a tanker over a scrapper is individual play style.

You port everything over then what's the reason for having ATs besides inherent power and caps?

Like I said before, I'd rather see proliferation stop altogether and a focus be turned to the other things I mentioned.

Anyone that knows me knows how bad I wanted SS and Energy for scrappers, but now that scrappers have been given Elec and Fire, I'd like to see some things stay with the original ATs. You have your opinion, I have mines. If they port them over I'll be one of the first to play energy melee, but I'd rather not have it at this point in the game. I'd much rather have something new.

In my humble opinion, AT "purity" died when Brutes and Tanks got Dual Blades.

There are already 3 ATs with Dark Miasma. What exact reason is there for Controllers not having it, when all the other support classes do?

There's a big difference between Scrappers and Tanks other than "play style." Besides, Scrappers started off with Dark Melee/Dark Armor, but all four melee ATs have it now. Is that to say nobody but Scrappers should be playing them? Because I could find a lot of happy Dark Melee Brutes you'd have to argue with first.

Energy Melee on a Scrapper would be something new. The way the set plays out is different for each AT that has it. There's a lot of stuff I still want proliferated.

I'm still against Super Strength being given to Scrappers because I always thought of Scrappers/Stalkers as "skilled, agile" while Brutes/Tanks were "brute force, power." That is to say it doesn't fit MY concept of a Scrapper, so I wouldn't make one. But ever since Brutes got DB and Claws, and Scrappers have Elec Melee now, the lines are more blurred. I'd rather let people make the decisions on what their character should be than have it be an arbitrary and forced decision by devs.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Electric buff set could have armors, some nice endurance and regeneration debuffs, definitely recovery buffs. Not sure what else though...

Lol I can see it now. I punched you so hard I made a hole, for assassins strike.

Which is all fine and good, I also understand Kali's point. But where and when does it end? And will the lines become so blurred that the entire AT system will be outdated?

I'd rather see development time be spent on entirely new sets rather than rehashing existing ones. There are no real shortage of ideas out there.

It's impossible for that to happen because no amount of proliferation will make a Scrapper and Tank so similar that either of the ATs should not exist, much less make Scrappers anything like Controllers.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

What more reason do you need?

Dark Miasma already exists across three of the four ATs that can use it. Energy Melee already exists across three of the four ATs that can use it. If you're interested in AT purity you picked some really poor examples to reinforce it.


And scrappers should get SS and energy, and controllers should get dark miasma. There's no reason to hold them back, and playstyle is distinctive among the ATs, and really is all you need.

It's not as if proliferating one set steals the work that would go into making one new set. It's not strictly an either/or situation, given that we've been getting new powersets and proliferated sets. You're presenting a false dilemma.

Why should it end?

Giving energy melee to scrappers won't make them more tankish or brutish or stalkerish than they are now. It'll just give you more options when making a scrapper. It won't destroy AT distinctiveness.

And again: It's not an either/or situation. They're making new powersets when they can, and they're proliferating existing powersets. One does not preclude the other, and pretending that proliferation takes up so much work that it prevents the creation of new powersets is highly misleading. The fact is that making new powersets is a lot of work by itself - designing the powers, the animations, the pets, etc. Proliferating powers across ATs hardly involves animations or graphics.

I never said I didn't want to continue the discussion. I merely stated that my opinion won't change. I'd rather see new power sets and ATs introduced instead of proliferation. I'd also love to see graphical changes to reduce redraw before anything else is ever proliferated.

In a way I also think proliferation is a lazy way of giving players "new" powersets instead of devoting the time and resources to create new ones from scratch.

In my first post I made a HUGE mistake because I based my opinion on heroside ATs. I totally forgot about villains as I really can't get into them and they are always left out of my reasoning; totally my fault (lash away).

Speaking purely from a heroic standpoint I can't agree with Dark Miasma going over to Controllers. The Defender AT was an afterthought, a combination of Blaster primaries and Controller secondaries. While it would make sense to give Controllers Dark Miasma because it is a Defender primary (where as Defender primaries=Controller secondaries). I would really like to see that stay unique heroside to Defenders.

I think every AT should have one or two sets that are unique to them. But that's just my opinion.

Erm, no. Dark Miasma is far better at hard control than Storm. A Cone Mez which affects Lieuts (and can also affect bosses), an auto-hit aoe stun and a hold. Plus a pet with a built-in hold and an aoe immob.

Storm has an AOE stun (which only affects minions) and an erratic stunning pseudopet (whioch often doesn't go down well on teams). Other than that it's just soft control via knockback, which doesn't work nearly as well.

Mind you Trick Arrow has tonnes of Control. But it's not quite the debuff monster that Dark is.

Fearsome Stare & Howling Twilight would be sick on Controllers. As would another pet who heals.

I suspect either a cut-down version of Dark Miasma might be replicated across or Traps will be instead.

Fear's a soft control, hence mobs attacking when subjected to it.

Howling Twilight is on such a long cooldown it's equivalent to a nuke. What else has a long cooldown? EM Pulse. EM Pulse has a longer cooldown, but has a higher magnitude hold that lasts 50% longer than HT's stun. What exactly would HT do that EM pulse doesn't already?

And what exactly would dark fluffies do for controllers that they don't already do for masterminds?

Edit: Immobilizes are soft too, plus the fluffy is not controllable. You can't expect it to apply its petrifying gaze to the target that would do the most good.

Actually I believe Dark MMs show exactly why giving Controllers Dark Miasma would be a bad idea. Dark is easily the most powerful secondary MM set for normal PvE play. A Dark Servant + Fire Imps in the middle of a spawn would be insane. As would the amount of AOE Fear and -ToHit a Illusion/Dark could stack (somewhere up to 48%, before Fluffy and Darkest Night are even used).

EMP does a hold, not a stun. Yes it is more powerful. Which probably explains why you've to wait until level 38 to get it, compared to level 10 for Howling Twilight. And 180 seconds is 60% of the recharge of EMP. Plus EMP & EMP Arrow have a -Recovery built into them.

I love Dark Miasma, it's my favourite debuff set in the game. So much so that I really think it should stay unique to Defenders Blueside, it's that good.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what here is actually more powerful than a controller with storm or rad and I'm just not seeing it.

I didn't say EMP does a stun. I said it was comparable to howling twilight as a long cooldown hard control. When you get them is pretty irrelevant, because if you level your character up, you'll be using them primarily in your 40s and at 50. It's not as if HT is some kind of awesome leveling tool. Ooh, a controller could use it once every three minutes pre-SOs to trigger containment, because that's so hard to pull off otherwise.

Also, all these arguments that "This powerset should be unique to one AT blueside" will be irrelevant when Going Rogue comes and corruptors and masterminds can swap sides (or in the case of scrappers, brutes and stalkers).

What will you do when corruptors are playing blueside?

I play all 3 (Storm and Rad as controllers, Dark as a MM and a Defender), I've given you plenty of examples. I can't help you any more. Dark would add much more support than Storm does to pets, plus in many cases give you ranged stacking stuns (and still equalling Storms big debuff). Rad / Dark is closer but Fluffy + you would be better at keeping things like Imps alive, add more constant ranged control (which 4 Controller sets can stack)

Of course I am of the opinion that Controllers should never have gotten Rad or Kin either, they should have stayed Defender only sets. They're too capable of creating edge cases like the GM soloers and the best farmers in the game. I'd be worried that Dark would cause the same sort of edge cases when combined with some control sets.

I don't care about uniqueness really. I'd be more worried about potential edge cases (Illusion/Dark, Fire/Dark, Earth/Dark, Mind/Dark most notably).

(and yes, sorry. I misquoted you on the EMP doing a stun thing. Soz)

This is nonsense though however. A Fire/Dark controller could have 2 Ranged AOE Stuns (one Autohit!) by level 12. Combine with Darkest Night, Tar patch, Hotfeet & Cages... HT is a superb (auto-hit) control power. One you could stack or stagger with Flashfire or Stalimites (and also does excellent -regen. Oh, and it'll also rez someone if they happen to die). Plus it's only one component of the awesome that is Dark.

Would I refuse to roll a Dark if it went to Controllers? Nope. I'd be all over it like a rash on someone who slept with Paris Hilton. But I would think Castle has lost it for allowing it

I've a feeling instead that Domis will get Dark Control & Dark Assault and that Dark Control will be proliferated to Controllers as well (along with maybe a renamed Poison and / or Traps at some point). That way things like Fearsome Stare can be copied across, along with the other controlling Dark Power animations. I've no idea if Fluffy would be though, I'd say a new Tier 9 would be made.

A Controller with Dark will be hands down more powerful than any other Controller combination. I can't imagine a Dark Controller ever getting hit, and even if he does his heal is much more powerful than Rad's (Storm's is non existent).

Dark also has more -To Hit than Storm or Rad as well as more control, and that's before factoring in the fluffie.

If Controllers do end up getting Dark Miasma, I for one will be retiring my Rad troller in lieu of a Fire/Dark.

Like I said earlier, I had left out Villains in my reasoning at first. But to answer what will I do when corruptors are playing blueside? I'll finally log onto my Fire/Dark corruptor...

This I very much doubt. I don't see Dark Controllers replacing Rad or Kin for farming or overall debuff potential. Or popularity, outside of the initial "new stuff" phase that all proliferation causes.

Do Rad Controllers ever really worry about getting hit? They can debuff ToHit as much as -40% with one power, plus have -20% damage and can debuff recharge and regen too. And they can debuff DEF and RES just as well. And that's just in a secondary. They still have a whole primary to lock down and mez enemies so that they don't get attacked.

The thing is, Controllers don't need that stuff. And it certainly wouldn't overpower them. Giving Controllers more control is like giving Tanks more taunt powers. Once you hit a point, there's no reason to have more.

So Dark has a ton of -ToHit, and an AoE fear, a single target hold, and an AoE stun. You really think that'll make it the only Controller secondary people will play...?

Want to know the most popular Controller combination? Fire/Kin. Guess how many ToHit debuffs, fears, holds, and stuns Kin has. Zero. Want to know how many AoE mez powers it takes to lock down a group of foes? One. A Fire Controller doesn't need extra mezzes. Neither does an Earth, Plant, or Mind Controller.

Dark is a good set, and there are nice uses for all of its powers. A Controller could cycle the powers to mez more than one group, or to stack over mag 3 when necessary. But Dark isn't the most popular set for Defenders, Corruptors, or Masterminds, so why would it automatically be the only set Controllers would ever play?

That's a valid decision. Dark would still be a powerful secondary. But you'd be losing out on DEF and recharge debuffs for the team. As well as recharge, recovery, and damage buffs for the team. Each set has things others don't. If you favor the things Dark offers, more power to you. I like Dark. I have a level 47 Necro/Dark MM. If it came to Controllers I'd probably do something with it too. But I enjoy my Ice/Cold Controller. It does things Dark can never do. And so does Rad. The opposite is also true, though.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Hmmm, I can't recall myself ever saying if Dark was given to Controllers that's the only set people will play, but I'll reread my comments in a sec.

You know why Fire/Kin is the most popular combo? Because Damage trumps everything else in this game. Debuffs, Buffs, controls etc are all means to the same end. A kintroller bypasses all of that with damage (and a huge heal). That's the reason I made mines and use him to PL newbie toons past the nauseating early parts of the game.

The reason Dark is not the most powerful set for Defenders is because Kin defenders can do more damage and Rad defenders recharge on EF is faster than Tar Patch. Rad's also get AM to slightly increase damage, where as Dark has no damage buffs. Defender's damage is already pitiful so they need to squeeze as much extra out as they can for soloing.

Controllers happen to be lucky enough to have a useful inherent and pets that do great damage (without the end cost of defender blasts).