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A) I'm not sure about Concealment specifically, but your henchman should be able to follow you through stealth without difficulty.|
Originally Posted by Turiel12345
A) does concealment work with minions? in other words can I go hidden with them out and will they still function (im guessing no)
B) first aid and leadership skills? how crucial are they both, if you could link or give me some numbers for each I would appreciate it C) For a travel skill Im thinking of picking up super speed, My other character has flight, are the two attack skills in this line useful for a MM? thanks D) this is not related to power pools but what MM secondary lines buff minions damage, I took forcefields but Im not loving it, considering a respec that's it, thanks in advance |
B) First Aid is up to you - most secondaries have a heal, or other forms of high-defence (like FFs) that make the need to heal your henchman directly with a pool power less pronounced, but with some secondaries it can be handy (and it can be a nice bonus on teams too.)
Leadership is generally considered a "must have" for MMs. Redside, they have one of the higher buff modifiers for it in the first place, and the fact that the "effective" bonus you get out of Leadership is multiplied by six thanks to your henchman makes it even more worthwhile. Assault and Tactics are particularly enjoyed for increased damage output, while Manoeuvres can often be the 3-4% more defence you need to soft-cap your pets.
C) Flurry and Whirlwind are considered some of the best-looking, but mechanically worst, powers in the game. You're better off taking attacks from your primary or patron pool.
D) You can't respec your secondary so you'd have to reroll, but I think Thermal Radiation and Pain Domination are the two secondaries with direct damage boosts in them. Poisons, Storm Summoning, Dark Miasma and Trick Arrow all have some resistance debuffs, which are as good (better, in many ways) as damage buffs, and Traps can provide its own damage with a couple powers.
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There are two different kinds of concealment: stealth and invisibility. If you want to command minions, you can't be INVISIBLE. However, if you combine multiple sources of stealth you can be very VERY stealthy, which has all the benefits of being invisible (at least in PvE) without the drawback of losing control of your minions.|
Originally Posted by Turiel12345
A) does concealment work with minions? in other words can I go hidden with them out and will they still function (im guessing no)
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Your minions can be invisible and still obey you, as long as YOU aren't invisible.
Phase shift cuts you off from absolutely EVERYTHING, even more so than being invisible. This is very bad for your minions, but might occasionally be useful for saving your own hide.
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Originally Posted by Turiel12345
B) first aid and leadership skills? how crucial are they both, if you could link or give me some numbers for each I would appreciate it
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Originally Posted by Turiel12345
C) For a travel skill Im thinking of picking up super speed, My other character has flight, are the two attack skills in this line useful for a MM? thanks
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That being said, air superiority does knock down fliers, which is nice.
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I have to respecfully disagree with points mentioned above - early on in an MM's career a heal is VERY nice for keeping your henchmen alive and aid other is one of the better heals in the game. Its only real drawback is the interrupt - it heals more than many of the single target heals offered in MM secondaries (specifically O2 boost and alkaloid which are fairly crappy heals) and has a very low end cost compared to MM secondary heals. I would almost always take aid other with the FF, TA or traps secondaries since the first two don't offer a heal and the third only has a stationary regen. I frequently take aid other even with storm summoning and then respec out of it later when I can slot up 02 boost enough to offset the low heal and high end cost. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
A) I'm not sure about Concealment specifically, but your henchman should be able to follow you through stealth without difficulty.
B) First Aid is up to you - most secondaries have a heal, or other forms of high-defence (like FFs) that make the need to heal your henchman directly with a pool power less pronounced, but with some secondaries it can be handy (and it can be a nice bonus on teams too.) Leadership is generally considered a "must have" for MMs. Redside, they have one of the higher buff modifiers for it in the first place, and the fact that the "effective" bonus you get out of Leadership is multiplied by six thanks to your henchman makes it even more worthwhile. Assault and Tactics are particularly enjoyed for increased damage output, while Manoeuvres can often be the 3-4% more defence you need to soft-cap your pets. |
As for leadership - MM's do NOT get the highest leadership mods redside - corruptors and VEAT's are the ones with the highest mods. MM's are second rank. Now, that doesn't mean that leadership is no good on an MM since you automatically get 6 times the benefit another AT would get. On an /FF mastermind I would definitely recommend assault since you don't have any other way to increase your pets damage on other secondaries it depends on what you can fit in - tactics is frequently nice but with a thugs primary you wouldn't really need it since the enforcers have their own tactics. I take leadership when I can fit it in but don't consider it a must have.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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I love aid other for my robot/ff mastermind, especially for it's almost-spammable refresh rate, but I can think of a few more minor drawbacks. |
Originally Posted by EricHough
I have to respecfully disagree with points mentioned above - early on in an MM's career a heal is VERY nice for keeping your henchmen alive and aid other is one of the better heals in the game. Its only real drawback is the interrupt - it heals more than many of the single target heals offered in MM secondaries (specifically O2 boost and alkaloid which are fairly crappy heals) and has a very low end cost compared to MM secondary heals.
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Firstly, it has a very short range that cannot be increased at all. Secondly, if you try to activate it when the power is on cooldown or the target is out of range, it doesn't enter a waiting-to-activate mode like most other powers, it just quietly fails. This means you have to always double-check that it fired properly, and try again if it didn't.
These minor quibbles are hardly the end of the world for a nice little healing power anyone can pick up as a hobby, but if you want "professional grade" healing powers go with pain domination as your secondary.
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To clarify, the power named "Invisibility" in the Concealment pool has an "Only Affect Self" restriction among its effects. That's the reason you can't command your pets while it's on, and that power is the only stealth-boosting power with that restriction, other than phase shifts.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Brainbottle
There are two different kinds of concealment: stealth and invisibility. If you want to command minions, you can't be INVISIBLE. However, if you combine multiple sources of stealth you can be very VERY stealthy, which has all the benefits of being invisible (at least in PvE) without the drawback of losing control of your minions.
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I just did some investigation on redtomax, and you're correct. There isn't an actual underlying distinction between stealth and invisibility in the game mechanics, it's just that "Invisibility" has the "only affect self" restriction.|
Originally Posted by Corebreach
To clarify, the power named "Invisibility" in the Concealment pool has an "Only Affect Self" restriction among its effects. That's the reason you can't command your pets while it's on, and that power is the only stealth-boosting power with that restriction, other than phase shifts.
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And this means that someone else could cast "Grant invisibility" on you, and you can continue to command your minions with a vastly superior stealth and defense buff that doesn't suppress when you attack, and doesn't have the annoying "only affect self" restriction. Interesting!
http://www.redtomax.com/data/powers/...&at=Mastermind
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Considering I specifically said it depended on your powerset, and with powersets without heals it was probably a power you should get, I don't think you disagreed as much as you think you did. |
Originally Posted by EricHough
I have to respecfully disagree with points mentioned above
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| As for leadership - MM's do NOT get the highest leadership mods redside - corruptors and VEAT's are the ones with the highest mods. |
That said, MMs and Corruptors are odd fish on the "which is better" scale. MMs get more out of Manoeuvres than a Corruptor, while the Corruptor has an edge with Assault and Tactics. Coupled with the fact that the powers also benefit henchmen, I think saying MMs get "one of the highest" benefits is a fairly accurate statement. They certainly get more than Dominators, Brutes, or Stalkers - top two is "one of the highest".
On any MM without a heal in the secondary I recommend Aid Other. I don't bother with Aid Self though; as long as you keep some henchmen in Bodyguard you don't really need it.
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That's not true; yes, you are buffing all six henchmen, but that doesn't mean you get six times the bonus another AT would because each individual pet is much weaker than another player.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Leadership is generally considered a "must have" for MMs. Redside, they have one of the higher buff modifiers for it in the first place, and the fact that the "effective" bonus you get out of Leadership is multiplied by six thanks to your henchman makes it even more worthwhile.
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Personally I no longer get Leadership powers on my MMs; there's always something else I want more.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Does the resistance to taunt and placate which comes with assault even matter? Seems like it would make it easier for challenge to keep hold.
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It would matter if you PvP. Though the placate resistance is nice for the few times you find NPC's doing it in PVE (like Succubi). It's not something I would go out of my way for though. |
Originally Posted by Mayax
Does the resistance to taunt and placate which comes with assault even matter? Seems like it would make it easier for challenge to keep hold.
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The value of the Leadership pool will depend greatly on your goals. MM's are really strong with just the 3 pet tiers, the upgrade powers, and a well thought out secondary (power picks, slotting, that sort of well thought out). Everything else is just icing on the cake.
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They won't typically be taking Tactics out of Leadership, but I regularly see other VEATs with Maneuvers/Assault. Both my VEATs double up on Maneuvers, and Assault. An extra 5% defense, and 15% damage are hard things to pass up! |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Partially true. VEAT mods are overall better than either MMs or Corruptors, but I don't count the VEATs for two reasons - first, they are EATs, and not available to all players, and secondly, they have their own powers that replicate the leadership pool to greater effect with lower cost, so they won't typically be taking leadership.
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How useful Leadership is comes down to what are you getting it for. Overall the weakest one for MMs would be assault. (supremacy is already +25%, assault is +10%)
Maneuvers can be excellent depending on whether or not you are building for defense (either personal or pet), it is very nice when stacked with the +def pet aura IOs and/or other defense powers (/FF /trap, /dark)
Tactics is useful if you dont have -def or any other form of +tohit for your pets, your tier 1 pets get hit hard by the purple patch by being -2 to you, so if you are fighting higher lvl enemies, their accuracy takes a plunge.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
How useful Leadership is comes down to what are you getting it for. Overall the weakest one for MMs would be assault. (supremacy is already +25%, assault is +10%)
Maneuvers can be excellent depending on whether or not you are building for defense (either personal or pet), it is very nice when stacked with the +def pet aura IOs and/or other defense powers (/FF /trap, /dark) Tactics is useful if you dont have -def or any other form of +tohit for your pets, your tier 1 pets get hit hard by the purple patch by being -2 to you, so if you are fighting higher lvl enemies, their accuracy takes a plunge. |
Supremacy is a given. It's not either/or. It has no place for comparison. 10% more is still 10% more with the 25%.
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Originally Posted by Mayax
Supremacy is a given. It's not either/or. It has no place for comparison. 10% more is still 10% more with the 25%.
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Except that you are burning endurance and a power pick for one, and not for the other. Assault is generally only good if you have NOTHING better to take.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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Not for the other? It's an f'n given, guy. Supremacy is baseline for all MM's. It doesn't even enter this discussion in any shape, form, or manner.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
Except that you are burning endurance and a power pick for one, and not for the other. Assault is generally only good if you have NOTHING better to take.
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So what if it burns end? I've got more end than I know what to do with. I've got excess end coming out of my ears. May as well take the 10% more damage. Slot it with an endurance reduction and it's negligible.
What am I going to take instead? Jumping?
It really depends on your primary/secondary. On bots/dark, you may as well kill crap faster while you sleep your way through the missions pressing one button every ten minutes.
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It is baseline, but there is a way you could legitimately bring it up as a deciding factor whether to get the leadership pool.|
Originally Posted by Mayax
Not for the other? It's an f'n given, guy. Supremacy is baseline for all MM's. It doesn't even enter this discussion in any shape, form, or manner.
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Let's pretend for the sake of simplicity that your un-buffed pets hit for exactly 100 damage per minute. It's easy to take supremacy for granted, and think your "effective" damage is 125 per minute because you always get the buff. But if a blaster who does 125 damage per minute without any buffs gets a +10% buff, they're going to be doing 110% of 125, which is 137.5. You're only going to get 135% of 100, which is 135.
In hindsight, now that I've done the math, 135 really isn't that much less than 137.5. But if we were talking about a brute who takes a full bar of fury for granted as his "effective" damage, the actual value of another +10% damage can be much smaller. That's why brutes should slot for end reduction and accuracy before they start thinking about damage enhancers.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Brainbottle
It is baseline, but there is a way you could legitimately bring it up as a deciding factor whether to get the leadership pool.
Let's pretend for the sake of simplicity that your un-buffed pets hit for exactly 100 damage per minute. It's easy to take supremacy for granted, and think your "effective" damage is 125 per minute because you always get the buff. But if a blaster who does 125 damage per minute without any buffs gets a +10% buff, they're going to be doing 110% of 125, which is 137.5. You're only going to get 135% of 100, which is 135. In hindsight, now that I've done the math, 125 really isn't that much less than 137.5. But if we were talking about a brute who takes a full bar of fury for granted as his "effective" damage, the actual value of another +10% damage can be much smaller. That's why brutes should slot for end reduction and accuracy before they start thinking about damage enhancers. |
You're comparing apples and oranges.
To say an MM should or should not take it because another AT gets better or worse benefit is irrelevant. Corruptors pull 15% from assault, it makes no difference to an MM. 10% more on the MM is still 10% more for an MM. Because corruptors get more benefit or brutes get worse because of fury is not an argument for taking it or not on a MM.
The boundary of this discussion is MM's. At least that's the forum this is posted in. If you want to debate the benefit of taking assault vs another pool power for an MM I'm all ears.
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No, that's PRECISELY what I just got finished explaining is not true. Forget I ever mentioned a blaster: the point is, an increase from 125 dps to 135 dps is only an 8% increase in the actual bottom line damage.|
Originally Posted by Mayax
10% more on the MM is still 10% more for an MM.
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Now, an effective 8% increase of actual damage might still be worth picking up, but it isn't the full 10% you might assume you're getting just by reading the big "+10%" advertised on the label.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Brainbottle
No, that's PRECISELY what I just got finished explaining is not true. Forget I ever mentioned a blaster: the point is, an increase from 125 dps to 135 dps is only an 8% increase in the actual bottom line damage.
Now, an effective 8% increase of actual damage might still be worth picking up, but it isn't the full 10% you might assume you're getting just by reading the big "+10%" advertised on the label. |
First, let's use the real numbers.
10% would be a 7.4% increase over supremacy.
As I said, 10% is still 10%. I don't see assault advertised as 10% over supremacy.
Now according to mids, assault is at 11.3%. In game, it's actually 11.25% or an 8.25% increase over supremacy.
Is that worth it? IMHO, 11.25% (in your eyes 8.25%) is worth it.
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Nope. 1.35 / 1.25 = 0.08|
Originally Posted by Mayax
First, let's use the real numbers.
10% would be a 7.4% increase over supremacy. |
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Originally Posted by Mayax
Now according to mids, assault is at 11.3%. In game, it's actually 11.25% or an 8.25% increase over supremacy.
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I have some MM's where I use the Concealment > Grant Invisibility on my minions. It works fine until they attack. So if you want to run around with them "stealthed", you need to make sure they are on "heel" mode.|
Originally Posted by Turiel12345
Ok I just had a few questions about power pools
A) does concealment work with minions? in other words can I go hidden with them out and will they still function (im guessing no) |
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| B) first aid and leadership skills? how crucial are they both, if you could link or give me some numbers for each I would appreciate it |
I may have a Leadership>Assault on one of my MM's as a test (low level). I haven't worked an mm up to a high enough level where I would even think about purchasing the whole set.
Having said that, as Leadership tends to multiply with the number of targets that are affected by it, it seems that Leadership would be a very useful power for MMs. Part of the problem, however, is that your henchmen have to be relatively close to you. Most mm's let their henchmen run all over the place, to it may not be as useful to some that let their henchmen run free.
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| C) For a travel skill Im thinking of picking up super speed, My other character has flight, are the two attack skills in this line useful for a MM? thanks |
Inside missions, your pets will generally be able to keep up with you regardless of what travel power you are using as they have a power to instantly tp to where you are when you get too far away (or at least they used to).
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D) this is not related to power pools but what MM secondary lines buff minions damage, I took forcefields but Im not loving it, considering a respec that's it, thanks in advance |
First off, you can't /respec to another secondary. Just make another character. We have plenty of slots! (well I don't any more, I'm full at the moment) I think that the Poison set as some great debuffs - and what debuffs the enemy - might as well be buffing you - as the effects turn out to be about the same.
My fear with power proliferation is the Thug/Kin. I can just see someone going wacko sb'ing Gang War henchmen now!
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Bad MMs. The leadership powers have approximately the same range as Supremacy, which means bots getting your inherent bonus and/or serving in Bodyguard mode should also be getting all your Leadership bonuses. |
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
I Part of the problem, however, is that your henchmen have to be relatively close to you. Most mm's let their henchmen run all over the place, to it may not be as useful to some that let their henchmen run free.
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Friends don't let friends keep their henchman in Aggressive mode.
Yes, minions that are allowed to run amok outside of supremacy range tend to lead to total party death... which I suppose is also a condition you aren't getting the full benefits of supremacy, but by that point it's the least of your problems.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Brainbottle
Nope. 1.35 / 1.25 = 0.08
Nope. 1.3625 / 1.25 = 0.09 |
125 is 90% of 136.25 as your math shows but 136.25 is not 9% more than 125.
If it was, a 9% decrease would work in reverse but 136.25 X .91 = 123.9875
You're doing it wrong.
Here's how you do it right:
125/135 = .9259
1 - .9259 = .0741 This is your actual percentage increase.
If you decrease 135 by 7.41% do you get 125?
135 * .9259 = 124.9965
Now, the same for 136.25
125/136.25 = .9174
1 - .9174 = .0825
Or, 8.3% Actual increase over Supremacy.
Ok I just had a few questions about power pools
A) does concealment work with minions? in other words can I go hidden with them out and will they still function (im guessing no)
B) first aid and leadership skills? how crucial are they both, if you could link or give me some numbers for each I would appreciate it
C) For a travel skill Im thinking of picking up super speed, My other character has flight, are the two attack skills in this line useful for a MM? thanks
D) this is not related to power pools but what MM secondary lines buff minions damage, I took forcefields but Im not loving it, considering a respec
that's it, thanks in advance