I've only taken Aid Other on one MM, a Mercs/Traps, which obviously doesn't have a good heal in the primaries (Beacon is... well, slow and sessile). I took it for him at something like 36th and OMG did it make a huge diff for him!
My other two MMs are /Storm and /Dark. Each has a heal and didn't really need any other. I did take Repair on the /Storm (she's a Bots/Storm, yes) and it does see some use here and there but if I was min/maxing a build and needed a power pick I probably wouldn't miss it much.
I sometimes take the Leaderships and sometimes don't, although I'm thinking I probably should. I'm not much of a min/maxer though and sometimes I made contrarian picks just because I want to play differently; don't tell me to stop that until I roll a petless MM. 
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Actually, my Bots/Traps MM can take even-level missions petless. I haven't tried her on higher difficulties petless, but even the basic accomplishment is somewhat impressive to me. |
Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
[S]ometimes I made contrarian picks just because I want to play differently; don't tell me to stop that until I roll a petless MM.
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Soft-capped defence and the ability to use Trip Mine to boost damage output is a large part of this, of course.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Brainbottle
+9% means on top of your usual 100% base damage, you add another 9% base damage, for a total of 109% base damage.
1.25 x 1.09 = 1.3625 here's a web site you can use to calculate "percentage increases". Try it! http://www.marshu.com/articles/calcu...calculator.php Nope, that's the percent decrease from 135 to 125. |
That's a calculation for 109% of 125.
Go get an 8th grade math book and look up percentage increase or more commonly known as "percent markup" in business. It's not the same thing.
Let me explain it another way because a lot of people are confused by this.
Let's say you run a store and you sell everything at 25% more than your cost.
You're selling a toaster that costs you $100. You increase the price by 25%.
1.00 *1.25 = 1.25 or $125
Using your math, you would sell it for $125. Now let's say it's four years later, that toaster is still sitting there and you forgot how much it cost you. You know you sell everything at 25% more so you should be able to find your cost. You want to mark it down to your cost to hopefully break even and off your shelf. If we increased it by 25% then 75% of the price tag should get us back to our cost. $125 * .75 = $93.75
What happened? You didn't increase the price by a true 25% to begin with.
Let's do it again with a true 25% increase.
$100 / .75 = $133.33
Get back to your cost:
$133.33 * .75 = $99.9975
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I don't have any 8th grade textbooks conveniently lying around, but I do have a web browser, and I know how to google. That's how I found that very helpful web page I linked to in my previous post, which agrees with MY interpretation that a nine percent increase means a total of 109% of the original value.|
Originally Posted by Mayax
Go get an 8th grade math book and look up percentage increase
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Originally Posted by Mayax
or more commonly known as "percent markup" in business. They're not the same things.
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I've been talking about percentage increases the entire time, and doing so correctly. Get over it.
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Here's your logical error. 3/4ths is not the same as 5/4ths. I'm using fractions because it should be easier to see where you went wrong doing so. |
Originally Posted by Mayax
You want to mark it down to your cost to hopefully break even and off your shelf. If we increased it by 25% then 75% of the price tag should get us back to our cost. $125 * .75 = $93.75
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125% of something is 5/4th of something. To turn 5/4ths back to 1, you want to multiply by 4/5ths, not by 3/4ths. Therefore, to get back to 100% from 125%, you want 80%, not 75%.
Try it. You'll see that the math works.
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You are the one who must have failed algebra in school - if you multiplied all costs by 25% (i.e. multiplied by 1.25) you don't get back to the base by multiplying by 0.75 - you get back by dividing by 1.25. |
Originally Posted by Mayax
That's a calculation for 109% of 125.
Go get an 8th grade math book and look up percentage increase or more commonly known as "percent markup" in business. It's not the same thing. Let me explain it another way because a lot of people are confused by this. Let's say you run a store and you sell everything at 25% more than your cost. You're selling a toaster that costs you $100. You increase the price by 25%. 1.00 *1.25 = 1.25 or $125 Using your math, you would sell it for $125. Now let's say it's four years later, that toaster is still sitting there and you forgot how much it cost you. You know you sell everything at 25% more so you should be able to find your cost. You want to mark it down to your cost to hopefully break even and off your shelf. If we increased it by 25% then 75% of the price tag should get us back to our cost. $125 * .75 = $93.75 What happened? You didn't increase the price by a true 25% to begin with. Let's do it again with a true 25% increase. $100 / .75 = $133.33 Get back to your cost: $133.33 * .75 = $99.9975 |
In other words if 1.25 * X = Y, then X = Y / 1.25, pretty basic algebra. In this case X != 0.75 * Y because increasing something by 25% does NOT mean that the original number is 75% of the new value.
I think you are confusing percentages and how they relate to multiplication/division. How a retailer figures a price increase and the language they use to describe that is inconsequential - the math stays the same. In your second case I would describe the retail markup as a 33% increase (i.e multiplying the wholesale cost by 1.33) which means to find the wholesale value you would once again divide by 1.33. Since 1/1.33 = 0.75 this means that the wholesale cost is 75% of the retail cost - not that the retail cost is 25% larger than the wholesale.
EDIT: Dont' get sidetracked by my use of retail vs wholesale - I am using the term retail to specify the final sale value to the customer and the term wholesale to specify the cost to the retailer - it is possible these terms may mean something different but for the purpose of understanding my above post, use them this way.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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Originally Posted by EricHough
You are the one who must have failed algebra in school - if you multiplied all costs by 25% (i.e. multiplied by 1.25) you don't get back to the base by multiplying by 0.75 - you get back by dividing by 1.25.
In other words if 1.25 * X = Y, then X = Y / 1.25, pretty basic algebra. In this case X != 0.75 * Y because increasing something by 25% does NOT mean that the original number is 75% of the new value. I think you are confusing percentages and how they relate to multiplication/division. How a retailer figures a price increase and the language they use to describe that is inconsequential - the math stays the same. In your second case I would describe the retail markup as a 33% increase (i.e multiplying the wholesale cost by 1.33) which means to find the wholesale value you would once again divide by 1.33. Since 1/1.33 = 0.75 this means that the wholesale cost is 75% of the retail cost - not that the retail cost is 25% larger than the wholesale. EDIT: Dont' get sidetracked by my use of retail vs wholesale - I am using the term retail to specify the final sale value to the customer and the term wholesale to specify the cost to the retailer - it is possible these terms may mean something different but for the purpose of understanding my above post, use them this way. |
Yes, let's bring in algebra to solve basic math.
While we're at it, how about a little calculus? We need to know just how fast that percentage is increasing.
Basic percentage is not the same thing as true percentage. As for the business example, how I just showed you is how it's done every day across the business world despite your disagreement.
Go have a chat with a math teacher.
TOO MUCH MATH!!! 
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Wow - just a little defensive? Your math was wrong - whatever the language you want to use to describe it. If I increase a value by 25% I don't get BACK to the original value by multiplying the result by 0.75 - its that simple. You can pretend you understand what you are doing all you want but you screwed up the math. |
Originally Posted by Mayax
Yes, let's bring in algebra to solve basic math.
While we're at it, how about a little calculus? We need to know just how fast that percentage is increasing. Basic percentage is not the same thing as true percentage. As for the business example, how I just showed you is how it's done every day across the business world despite your disagreement. Go have a chat with a math teacher. |
125 is 25% larger than 100, 133 is 33% larger than 100. 100 is 75% of 133 and if that is the way a sales person calculates profit then fine - but your original arguement worked from an invalid premise. If I originally calculated my "25% profit" by multiplying my costs by 1.25 I would be an idiot to reverse the process by the method you desribed. I will remind you of the section that I specifically found to be incorrect:
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You're selling a toaster that costs you $100. You increase the price by 25%. 1.00 *1.25 = 1.25 or $125 Using your math, you would sell it for $125. Now let's say it's four years later, that toaster is still sitting there and you forgot how much it cost you. You know you sell everything at 25% more so you should be able to find your cost. You want to mark it down to your cost to hopefully break even and off your shelf. If we increased it by 25% then 75% of the price tag should get us back to our cost. $125 * .75 = $93.75 |
I certainly wont' claim to be an expert in business - my degree is in physics, math and computer science, but no math I have ever studied suggested that a 25% increase in X meant that X = 0.75 * Y.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Ok - my previous reply was a bit harsher than it should have been so if you feel offended, my apologies - however the reason I brought algebra into the issue is that the operations you where describing are basic algebra. Removing any 'business' practices from the example, look at the following two problems:
1) Joe and I both have some money. I have 25% more money than joe. If I have 125$, how much does joe have.
2) Joe and I both have some money, joe has 25% less money than I do. If I have 125$, how much does joe have.
The correct answer to 1 is 100$, the correct answer to 2 is 93.75$. The reason the answers are different depends on WHICH value to which we apply the 25% modifier. In the first problem I am applying the 25% modifier to the amount JOE has (X), in the second problem I am appying the 25% modifier to the value I have (Y). In the original, incorrect example you calculated Y using the first method, then tried to go back to X using the second which is incorrect.
As I noted above if anyone asked me to figure out 25% profit on value X I would pretty much always assume that you multiplied X by 1.25 and if someone asked me to reverse the process I would do exactly that and divide the result by 1.25. I seriously doubt even the weirdest business math assumes that a 25% profit means that the cost to the seller should be 75% of the retail price - I would amost always decribe this as a 33% profit. If you can produce some authoritative source (like a business math reference) that works differently, I will stand corrected on how a seller describes their profit margin - but not on how the math works.
EDIT: Corrected typo
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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There is a time and place for talking about profit margins as a percentage of retail price, but this isn't it. We're talking about power enhancing effects in City of Heroes now, which uses percent INCREASES. For example, when supremacy gives you a "plus twenty five percent increase", that means you get the usual base damage (100% of it) plus another 25% of your base damage, for a total of 125% base damage. |
Originally Posted by Mayax
Basic percentage is not the same thing as true percentage. As for the business example, how I just showed you is how it's done every day across the business world despite your disagreement.
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Here's a little sanity check: When I slot three level 50 enhancements into my assault bot, after ED that works out to about a 97% increase. How much has my total damage multiplied?
By my way of calculating percentage increases, the power is multiplied by 1.97, so it's about twice as powerful. Not bad. But by YOUR way of calculating percentage increases as if it's a profit margin, a 97% profit margin means that 97% of the retail price is pure profit, so the original wholesale cost was 7% of the retail price. that means you're multiplying the original cost by 1/0.07, which is about fourteen. Do you really think my assault bot is FOURTEEN times more powerful after I slot those enhancements?
But wait, silly me, I forgot supremacy. which adds yet another 25%, for a total of 122%. By my way of calculating things, that's the same as multiplying by 2.22. But how would you calculate it your way, as a profit margin? What does a 122% profit margin even MEAN?
1.25 x 1.09 = 1.3625
here's a web site you can use to calculate "percentage increases". Try it!
http://www.marshu.com/articles/calcu...calculator.php
125/135 = .9259
1 - .9259 = .0741 This is your actual percentage increase.