There seem to be a lot of bugs with this issue and the XP issues aren't the only thing stopping people from using the MA. I'm sure people like me who are experiencing this with their custom groups aren't inclined to do much either. Use custom mobs their XP sucks, use standard mobs and they don't spawn at the right level.
Quote:
To set Hard as the "baseline" difficulty, then pack it with powers that no or very few dev-created critters have (Aim, Build-up, Auto-hit end drain, Rage, "toggle" debuffs that can't be shut off through mezzing, the list goes on) and therefore player powersets aren't balanced against, would indicate that the devs are completely out of touch with the design of their own game.|
Originally Posted by LaserJesus
This also sends the message that Hard is the baseline, which doesn't fly with me. If the "Hard" setting is the baseline, then that implies two things:
A) The difficulties should logically go Easy, Standard, Hard if that were the case. B) The developers think Hard Lieutenants are roughly the same challenge as a Vortex Cor Leonis Adjutant. Some may be, but if I were to make a Battle Axe/Illusion Control lieutenant with both on hard, they would have 3 melee attacks, a PBAoE attack, build up, two ranged attacks, a hold, and spectral terror. Terrorize is pretty much the least resisted attack type, and it has two powers that do it that also have a -15% tohit debuff, one of which is an aura. Extreme example, but you can see how hard enemies can easily get stupidly powerful. |
You chose to use an example of a very extreme custom critter (high-damage primary, little-resisted secondary) to compare to one of the wussiest lieutenants in the high-level game. I don't think you need to go that far to prove the disparity between standard and custom critters.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Because I think the number of people who stopped using it because they were "simply doing other things" is negligible.
I don't, since that's the reason I haven't been around so much.
I could not possibly care less how much XP a player gets from an MA arc. Frankly, it should have been zero from the beginning.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
Frankly, a very small minority agrees with you, not nearly enough to make the feature worth the development effort put into it.
|
Originally Posted by Venture
I could not possibly care less how much XP a player gets from an MA arc. Frankly, it should have been zero from the beginning. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
/nod. Well put.
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Frankly, a very small minority agrees with you, not nearly enough to make the feature worth the development effort put into it.
|
Frankly, a very small minority agrees with you, not nearly enough to make the feature worth the development effort put into it.
I'm sure a no-reward AE model would be at least as popular as PvP, which still has enough of an audience to be worth continued developer attention.
I'd rather the system was used only by people who care about content and not by people looking for yet another Easy Mode. If that meant restricting it to a niche I'm OK with that.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I agree with Eva that the number of people that think MA should be rewarding zero XP is quite small, if not "negligible." That said, I agree with Venture and some others that think there are other factors drawing people away from MA (and the rest of the game, for that matter) right now. Again, CO is punching CoH in the face at the moment - that should have been expected. Of the folks I know that are playing it, my guess is somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 will return eventually, but right now there are a bunch of people playing the new shiny superhero MMO.
Arkam Asylum has drawn of a bunch of folks for the moment as well. Now whether or not the people that are off consoling at the moment are the people that are abandoning our story-based arcs (as opposed to the farms), I have no idea. But once they burn out on AA, they'll be back.
There are other new shinies that have been released in relatively close proximity to the release of I16, too. How any of these will ultimately affect our MA is anyone's guess. Having a *fixed* MA would certainly be a better draw to get them back, but you can bet it doesn't matter at the moment - I16 didn't have anything to do with their being gone, for now.
The SOLUS Foundation - a Liberty and Pinnacle SG
"The Consequences of War" - Arcs # 227331 and 241496
Quote:
All those posts from people "looking for lowbie-friendly arcs 'cause I'm sick of Mercy and papers," as well as arcs advertised as such do show that it is being used by people who care about content. The fact that I see arcs with opposite-of-easy mode enemies such as Malta and Rularuu with over 100 ratings shows that it isn't just used as an easy mode.|
Originally Posted by Venture
I'd rather the system was used only by people who care about content and not by people looking for yet another Easy Mode. If that meant restricting it to a niche I'm OK with that. |
It is also being used by people who care about content as well as advancing their character. I have said this before and I will say it again: The two are not mutually exclusive. People who don't care about content can go level off papers or the same Dev-created arcs they've played 15 times already. People who do care about content need new avenues of progression, or they will get bored and quit.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
How many friggin' times does this have to be said before the "it's all about story and rewards shouldn't matter" crowd get it through their thick skulls?|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
It is also being used by people who care about content as well as advancing their character. I have said this before and I will say it again: The two are not mutually exclusive. People who don't care about content can go level off papers or the same Dev-created arcs they've played 15 times already. People who do care about content need new avenues of progression, or they will get bored and quit.
|
Unfortunately the answer is probably: infinite.
Honestly, I play for content but I also play for advancing my character. If there were no rewards for AE, I would not play it. My time is too valuable to play something, no matter the content, without some kind of advance for my character.
On the other hand, I really don't see how in any form of reality, AE and PVP can be compared as the same. It's like comparing apples and guitars.
But really this is all moot, the devs have already stated they want to have rewards for AE. Period. No amount of "pvp and AE are the same" will change that.
Unfortunately the answer is probably: infinite.
That's because it's false.
If the system can be used for reward then it can be abused for reward. This is exactly what happened, and exactly what lots of people on these forums saw coming right from the announcement. It is extremely unlikely that the devs are going to magically find a way to have AE give standard levels of rewards while simultaneously preventing it from being abused. The only way to stem the tide of abuse is to lower the reward level below the norm, possibly greatly so. And if that's what it takes then I'm OK with it.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
That's different from what you originally said. Don't start back peddling.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Unfortunately the answer is probably: infinite.
That's because it's false. If the system can be used for reward then it can be abused for reward. This is exactly what happened, and exactly what lots of people on these forums saw coming right from the announcement. It is extremely unlikely that the devs are going to magically find a way to have AE give standard levels of rewards while simultaneously preventing it from being abused. The only way to stem the tide of abuse is to lower the reward level below the norm, possibly greatly so. And if that's what it takes then I'm OK with it. |
Now, I am stating the obvious when I say that any system can be abused in the game. For example, inf sellers didn't show up until the auction house and IOs. There are people who are abusing it to a make quick money to sell to players. IMO this is by far a greater crime than if the entire AE were farms/PL arcs.
Fortunately some of the farm/pl problems have been addressed and there has already been result. Super SK was the best thing they could think of, PLers even agree that it has greatly decreased their xp rewards. And it has the great side effect of encouraging people to team up more.
Quote:
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Everyone else on the other hand wants to see their characters advance and experience new content, not have to choose between one or the other.
|
Originally Posted by Venture
Unfortunately the answer is probably: infinite.
That's because it's false. |
Everyone else on the other hand wants to see their characters advance and experience new content, not have to choose between one or the other.
I'm sure that's true, but what people want and what's good for the system are, as is almost always the case, two entirely different things.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
Considering that "the system" in this case relies entirely on keeping people happy to remain viable, no, they're not two different things.
|
Originally Posted by Venture
Everyone else on the other hand wants to see their characters advance and experience new content, not have to choose between one or the other.
I'm sure that's true, but what people want and what's good for the system are, as is almost always the case, two entirely different things. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
Really? I hadn't noticed.|
Originally Posted by Venture
I don't, since that's the reason I haven't been around so much.
|
What I did notice was the precipitous drop in AE activity immediately after I16's launch, which has persisted ever since. And will, I have no doubt, continue until the XP situation is addressed.
If you'd like to predict when all these people--the great numbers who just coincidentally decided to go do other things the same day I16 went live--are going to be coming back to the feature, feel free.
As a marketeer, I'd be particularly interested in this prediction.
Quote:
| I could not possibly care less how much XP a player gets from an MA arc. Frankly, it should have been zero from the beginning. |
I understand you don't think their model can work. But that's you and, again, this isn't about you. Apparently, the developers aren't willing to throw in the towel just yet.
It is still currently a design goal for the feature to be a leveling alternative. The developers have good reason for it to be one. If it's going to be successful in that regard, I believe the rewards need to be at least comparable to regular content. I think I16 has demonstrated that.
Quote:
| I'd rather the system was used only by people who care about content and not by people looking for yet another Easy Mode. If that meant restricting it to a niche I'm OK with that. |
So what you want, in terms of the present model, is completely and totally irrelevant. You're talking about an entirely different model altogether, one that was apparently abandoned in development. Everyone else is discussing the existing model, and whether or not it can survive and thrive in the game.
You don't think it can. Okay. Duly noted.
I and others believe it can function as a leveling alternative and would like it to be so. So, if it's all the same to you, I'd like to discuss the current model and design goals, not yours. I really don't care about yours at all. Mostly because, if that's all I wanted MA to be, well, I have that now. I'd like it to be more than that.
Oh, and yes, players can care about content and advancing characters. I happen to be one of them. As are, I suspect, many people posting in this thread. It is precisely because I care about content that I'd like MA to offer a viable leveling alternative.
And I also think it's important to note that the nerf most people here are complaining about--the custom critter nerf--didn't really impact the AE abusers at all. The custom group nerf and SSK did that. So, no, I disagree that these reductions were necessary. That I think they were entirely unnecessary is one of the reasons why I continue to be against them.
The group nerf I'm fine with, because, yes, I think it directly impacted abuses, while still allowing me to create a group without all the ranks included, should I ever have a reason to do so (and I've had reason in the past).
----
Re: CO
CO launched well before I16 went live. The dramatic drop in AE activity I'm citing happened immediately after I16 went live, many days after CO launched. So... the drop in activity I'm referring to has nothing to do with CO's launch. Anyone who went off to play CO probably did so before the AE activity drop occurred. Even if that weren't the case, they most definitely did not all suddenly decide on the same day, September 16th, to go play CO. Anyone continuing to assert this notion is being ridiculous.
Furthermore, judging by market shifts, the players didn't leave the game itself. They simply left AE and returned to regular content. If all those people had got up and left to play another game, the effect on the market would've been dramatic.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
Quote:
Conveying the fact that people don't find it viable as a leveling alternative is very different than helping them to get it to a point where it is. It's incredibly easy to say "I hate this. Fix it." If the developers knew how to please everyone, they would have done it already. The only way they're going to have a chance at getting this right is if they're able to look at reward rates without widespread abuse being involved. And now, they can do that.|
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
Now you're suggesting I should continue to use the AE as a leveling alternative... to send the message that I don't find it usable as a leveling alternative?
Noop. Ain't gunna do that. That sounds bass-ackwards to me. Here's all the hard data the devs should need: after I16 was launched, MA usage went into the gutter. It ain't rocket science. If they can't see that in their data, we have bigger problems than having one feature on the ropes. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
To set Hard as the "baseline" difficulty, then pack it with powers that no or very few dev-created critters have (Aim, Build-up, Auto-hit end drain, Rage, "toggle" debuffs that can't be shut off through mezzing, the list goes on) and therefore player powersets aren't balanced against, would indicate that the devs are completely out of touch with the design of their own game.
|
Quote:
I don't think anyone is saying I16 is the only thing responsible for the giant drop off in MA activity, just that is the biggest factor.|
Originally Posted by Dalghryn
I agree with Eva that the number of people that think MA should be rewarding zero XP is quite small, if not "negligible." That said, I agree with Venture and some others that think there are other factors drawing people away from MA (and the rest of the game, for that matter) right now.
|
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
The developer's entire approach to solving the "farming problem" was entirely wrong and overblown. Ignoring the fact that much of the criticism of farming came to resemble elitist snobbery by the traditionalist crowd (Cain't have them sod-busters messin' up the open range!) what is inescapable about MA was the excitement exhibited by the large numbers of players regularly using the system.
The xp nerfs have been disastrous....like swatting a fly with a sledge-hammer. I've been to AE on a number of servers since I16 went live and without exception each of the sites has been dead...kaput...prostrate...LIFELESS.
This was unnecessary. The simplest solution was what should have been done from the beginning: give normal xp for each critter created, based on arch-type and power sets, and require that each arc created have minions, lieutenants, and bosses. Allow creators to pack some extra bosses onto each map (within limits of course) to add some extra xp and a little spice and excitement and ...VOILA....you have a viable and exciting system again.
What I don't understand, and what no one else seems to have mentioned, is why the developers can't simply make an arc unpublishable if there aren't the proper balances of minion/lieutenant/bosses and custom villain group power levels instead of nerfing XP.
It seems to me that, since you can't even publish an arc if there isn't text in an appropriate field, or if you haven't selected the proper map for the number of activities you've written into a mission, that they could do the same with the creation of custom villain groups that are used as spawns in a mission.
Since my arcs don't use custom villain groups, and are thus not affected by the latest nerfs, maybe I'm missing something. If so, I'm sure someone will explain it to me. In any case, there has to be a fix to their perception of the problem that doesn't involve crippling XP.
The SOLUS Foundation - a Liberty and Pinnacle SG
"The Consequences of War" - Arcs # 227331 and 241496
Quote:
In answer to the first thing: There are often reasons for an author to create an enemy group, usually for limited use, that is missing a rank due to file size constraints. Since these groups, when used for story purposes, nearly always contain minions, a better solution to the xp reductions would be to only apply them to groups that don't contain minions.|
Originally Posted by Dalghryn
What I don't understand, and what no one else seems to have mentioned, is why the developers can't simply make an arc unpublishable if there aren't the proper balances of minion/lieutenant/bosses and custom villain group power levels instead of nerfing XP.
|
The ability to create a group that doesn't contain all ranks can be useful, even with diminished xp. Speaking as a player, and one who is interested in rewards, I really don't care too much if that one all-Lt ambush gives reduced rewards.
And as for the custom group power levels, go create one that is set to all Hard/Hard, and see how you do against them. Use your toughest 50, on whatever difficulty you normally play on, and be sure to give them a nice variety of power sets, to simulate an actual story-based custom group. Go ahead. I'll be waiting when you get back from the hospital.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
^^^|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
In answer to the first thing: There are often reasons for an author to create an enemy group, usually for limited use, that is missing a rank due to file size constraints.
|
This.
Anyone who puts together a 5 mission arc with custom mobs is going to run into this problem... Should I cut missions or cut ranks? The best answer is to cut ranks. I have a 5 mission arc that I was working on that has 2 custom groups. For a while I only had minions before I found another work around for some of size limits. I still don't have bosses in either custom group. At this point I think I'm going to give up on it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dalghryn
What I don't understand, and what no one else seems to have mentioned, is why the developers can't simply make an arc unpublishable if there aren't the proper balances of minion/lieutenant/bosses and custom villain group power levels instead of nerfing XP.
It seems to me that, since you can't even publish an arc if there isn't text in an appropriate field, or if you haven't selected the proper map for the number of activities you've written into a mission, that they could do the same with the creation of custom villain groups that are used as spawns in a mission. Since my arcs don't use custom villain groups, and are thus not affected by the latest nerfs, maybe I'm missing something. If so, I'm sure someone will explain it to me. In any case, there has to be a fix to their perception of the problem that doesn't involve crippling XP. |
If you play my arc The Audition, you'll see in mission 1 and in the final mission examples of exactly why I would HATE this to happen. Mission 1 is set on an alien planet entirely populated by a single hive-mind inhabiting millions of identical bodies. The mob group is made up of one minion-level mob. If I was forced to add a lieut and a boss to that group, in order to maintain the mission exactly as it is (and as it is is the story I want to tell), I'd simply make liuet and boss versions of the minion, with the identical costume and identical powersets. In other owrds, i'd use up space pointlessly.
Mission 6 wouldn't even be possible to simulate as is using your mooted method. Mission 6 takes place on an alien spaceship. Aboard the spaceship, the Player encounters 2 different types of being. The maps default group is called 'servitirs' and that group uses Storm elementals. They are supposed to be general wierd alien gaseous automaton servitors of the main group present on the spaceship, the Galactic Constructors, who are 5 individual immensely powerful alien robots who claim to have created the universe. For plot reaosns, during this mission they have been (luckily for the player) brought down to EB-levels of power. Their custom group contains just them, 5 individual EBs. They appear in the mission as Defeat Boss encounters. What is the point of adding random lieuts and minions to their group?
I for one wish that they hadn't added the XP-adjustment thing in relation to customs group minion/lieyt/boss spread. its not limited ctorytellers per se, as we can still make any kind of group we want. However, it has reduced the audience that we might expect, because there are a lot of players who, interested in story arcs though they may be, are also more interested in XP. Those players will for example play your arcs, Dal, seeing your 'Full XP' tag, than mine, whioch now gives less XP than it used to, even though it was in no way designed as a farm.
Please don't call for more nerfs to story-mechanics. One day you might want to use a custom group with only a single mob in it. EDIT: What I mean by 'no more nerfs' there is that I'd rather see XP nerfed than mechanics made unusable, but I'd of course prefer that XP weas left alone instead and the Devs had some kind of harsher on-hands attitude to farms. I mean, that's why they did the XP nerf, isn't it? because of exploits from farmers?
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
I wasn't "calling for" a nerf to mechanics so much as suggesting that maybe there was a way of adjusting the mechanics rather than the XP. It just seems as if they always adjust XP as a solution before eventually finding the mechanics adjustment that would have worked best in the first place.
You all make very valid points, most of which I thought about after I'd posted my just-woke-up-from-a-Benadryl-induced-coma thoughts. The frustrating thing is the same thing that's always frustrating about this game - that is that farmers and exploiters drive development decisions, rather than the wants, hopes, and desires of the by-the-book (or relatively so) playerbase.
Hire an employee or two with nothing more than a basic game-player's experience to run MA arcs and flag farms for review and removal. My guess is you could find hundreds of applicants that would much rather play CoH all day long as a paying job rather than work at McDonald's or Buy More for the same salary.
Stop penalizing the people that play by the rules because it's an easier fix than directly addressing the ones that don't.
The SOLUS Foundation - a Liberty and Pinnacle SG
"The Consequences of War" - Arcs # 227331 and 241496
I understand you don't define them as such. I do. And more importantly: so does most everyone else.
If the mass exodus from AE immediately after I16's release was not caused solely by I16, when do you expect the population using the feature to rise again by any noticeable degree? How long do you think it will take?
If I'm right, there will be no upswing in activity until the XP situation is addressed.
If you're right, there should be some sort of noticeable upswing in the near future, when all those people return from whatever it is that they were doing.
So, when do you think that's going to happen?
I reject the guilt-ridden notion that I'm "helping it towards its grave". I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that before. This is the point I understood you to be making in your last response. I find it no less silly now than I found it then.
I'm not responsible for what the developers decide to do, so suggesting that I'm somehow responsible for the demise of MA is just absurd. It's like blaming a film's failure on the audiences who didn't go to see it, instead of identifying why they didn't go see it and putting the blame there, where it belongs.
I'm just a consumer, a customer, like every other player. If the developers want me to use a feature, I have to consider it to be worth using.
I do not consider AE to be a viable leveling alternative, so no, I'm not going to use it for leveling. Not using it for leveling is how I convey the fact that I don't find it to be a viable leveling alternative.
Now you're suggesting I should continue to use the AE as a leveling alternative... to send the message that I don't find it usable as a leveling alternative?
Noop. Ain't gunna do that. That sounds bass-ackwards to me.
It ain't rocket science.
If they can't see that in their data, we have bigger problems than having one feature on the ropes.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials