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What's nice about PP is that it provides for both regen and recov, albeit a third to half of each (relative to Health and Stamina), but that's exactly what I've been looking for. It's like having a fully adjustable Numina's regen/recov in a single power.
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Originally Posted by Cyanide_Crush
I don't think anyone covered this but..
Everyone(Well a few) is dismissing PPs Regen side of the power. |
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Ew.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
I'd put in 2 - 4 Efficacy Adaptor, 3 - 4 Performance Shifter if I was going for bonuses or just slot 2 generic end mod IOs.
Regen isn't usually what's at a premium (you can always slot up health if you want that), recovery IMO is harder to come by. |
Way overkill on the endurance on PP. First off i'd ask what your power sets are. If you don't need the regen i'd just keep it at 4 slots of performance shifter.
If you are a squishy without a fast self heal that isn't interruptible, or a scrap/tank with low heal capability like shield, invuln, SR, Ice etc, then EASILY go 2 numina, and 4 efficacy adapters.
Most of my IOd toons don't have end problems, so the end from PP is really mostly bonus, and the power becomes more used for its regeneration, and max hp bonuses.
If it's something like willpower, where the regen or recovery really isn't that needed, then slot with 3 numinas and 3 performance shifters for the 1.88% max hp from each set.
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
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considering both FA, and CP can really get by with a base slot as an extra power i don't think that PP needs to be tier 1. I CERTAINLY wouldn't complain however, but i don't think its necessarily warranted.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
If you run out of end between CP uptimes, then PP will help. Maybe not enough, but it will help.
However, that's my biggest gripe about the power order for Body Mastery. PP's placement as a tier2 power needs to be changed. It should be tier1. But I'm not holding my breath. |
If your toon is good on end with PP, then pick FA, if its bad on end, then pick CP for those rare times. For a base slot (or in cases like my shield full slot for gaussians) FA with a 50 common end reducer isn't too shabby to have either.
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
Sorry for the minor necro, but I just started caring about this, as I'm currently overhauling my end game build for my Katana/Dark Armor to bring it up to I16 standards.
I just want to confirm before I spend obscene amounts of influence (I'm already bidding even though I'm just level 40) - the +recovery portion of the Miracle and Numina uniques are enhanced by the endmod enhancement in the power, just like the +regeneration portion of the Numina and Regenerative Tissue uniques are enhanced by the heal enhancement in the power, correct? That's how it is reported in Mids', and that's how it's been described in this thread, and that's what I would expect. But has anyone verified this in game?
As for my own slotting, I'm a little limited by having a full set of Numinas in Health for the ranged defense. That of course affected the Physical Perfection slotting. But here's what I'm looking at in the most recent iteration of the build:
Performance Shifter proc
Performance Shifter endmod
common endmod
Panacea unique
Miracle unique
Regenerative Tissue unique
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Sure there is. Endurance reduction is often a performance compromise. You might get additional performance by increasing endurance recovery and simultaneously increasing endurance usage. That is very much what I found to be the case on my Katana/Dark. Over the course of a few days, I went from a Performance Shifter proc in the default slot in Physical Perfection to having it fully slotted. Many of my toggles are more poorly slotted for endurance reduction now, and I've lost some endurance reduction in a couple attacks as well. But my net EPS has improved slightly, as has my overall performance.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
there isn't really a way to increase your endurance costs to increase output to achieve some form of additional performance
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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In the most recent patch? No. Previously, yes. About 2 issues ago, I think.|
Originally Posted by Werner
But has anyone verified this in game?
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It was actually discovered during a forum discussion trying to figure out why someone's combat attributes monitor was giving results we didn't expect, so it should be easy to verify in-game if anyone can pop some enhancements around, possibly on test.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Excepting, of course, those of us who attack like a nymphomaniac on a near-lethal dose of PCP and ecstasy. :^)|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Because where endurance is concerned, more isn't better. Anything over endurance sustainability is wasted. Any point of endurance you recover that you don't use is a wasted point of endurance and there isn't really a way to increase your endurance costs to increase output to achieve some form of additional performance by having greater endurance sustainability.
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But I do see your point. :^)
Basically too many 50's to count, but I'm generally a brute/scrapper/tank kind of guy.
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Agreed.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Because CP covers just about everything and PP doesn't offer enough endurance recovery to really help offset running FA. Really, PP's a wasted power pick for all but the most endurance-hungry builds.
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My dark armor and shield characters love it. Haven't noticed it much where I've tried it other than that.
For slotting - I echo the PS proc comments tho, take the base benefit and use it for possible benefit. I have moved my regenerative tissue unique there for now also.
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R.I.P.
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I had thought the End Mod IOs would apply to the Healing +recovery uniques? People are not slotting these in PP along with 3 End Mod IOs?
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Totally didn't think of that.|
Originally Posted by MrSuzi
I had thought the End Mod IOs would apply to the Healing +recovery uniques? People are not slotting these in PP along with 3 End Mod IOs?
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In any case, if I were to take PP, it would be for the +Regen, not the +Recovery.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I took it for both. I wanted more recovery, and I wanted more regen. Poof! Thanks, devs!
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
In any case, if I were to take PP, it would be for the +Regen, not the +Recovery.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Nice tips, all.
For the record, the character I'm planning this on is a Broad Sword/Dark Armor Scrapper, So I forsee needing all the extra Recovery I can get.
And, as I plan to use Oppressive Gloom over Cloak of Fear, some extra Regen isn't to be overlooked.
However, I often end up finding I have to settle for common IOs in my builds - I never seem to be able to raise the Inf needed to really go all out with Sets.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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I'd recommend playing the market or playing your 50s. Either will get you quite a bit of influence. The market is faster, but you might have more fun just playing.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
However, I often end up finding I have to settle for common IOs in my builds - I never seem to be able to raise the Inf needed to really go all out with Sets.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I don't think you quite understood my statement there. I was refering to the ability to do so beyond the slotting variability that you're refering to.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Sure there is. Endurance reduction is often a performance compromise. You might get additional performance by increasing endurance recovery and simultaneously increasing endurance usage. That is very much what I found to be the case on my Katana/Dark. Over the course of a few days, I went from a Performance Shifter proc in the default slot in Physical Perfection to having it fully slotted. Many of my toggles are more poorly slotted for endurance reduction now, and I've lost some endurance reduction in a couple attacks as well. But my net EPS has improved slightly, as has my overall performance.
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Sure, you can drop the end costs on powers to increase your gain in other ways (generally by saving slots), but there's no way to spend make any use of endurance beyond the point of sustainability. That redundant recovery serves to act just like defense over the softcap: it's only serving to act as a buffer against debuffs. In general, you're better off just carving it off and finding more useful set bonuses/powers.
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That's the sticking point, though. If your attack chain causes you to run out of end, at ANY point, then more recovery is a good thing.| but there's no way to spend make any use of endurance beyond the point of sustainability. |
Even now, IOed and purpled up, my main scrapper's end usage is higher than his recovery forcing me to either turn off toggles or fire off CP during hard target runs.
This is why I wanted PP as a tier1 so badly. It would have given me just enough of a recovery boost for end sustainability and given me more regen.
As it is... I can't fit it in the build. At least not until I hit 60 months.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Well, OK, yes. Once you've removed all compromises for endurance and are still at endurance sustainability, no, you won't get much benefit out of even more recovery. Does that happen? I always seem to find a way to burn through all the endurance I can get my hands on despite having made compromises to lower my endurance consumption.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
I don't think you quite understood my statement there. I was refering to the ability to do so beyond the slotting variability that you're refering to.
Sure, you can drop the end costs on powers to increase your gain in other ways (generally by saving slots), but there's no way to spend make any use of endurance beyond the point of sustainability. That redundant recovery serves to act just like defense over the softcap: it's only serving to act as a buffer against debuffs. In general, you're better off just carving it off and finding more useful set bonuses/powers. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
So...have the devs said why this power is not a tier 1?
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Nope. Nor have they said why we can't have the pools be tier1*3, tier2, tier 3.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
So...have the devs said why this power is not a tier 1?
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Be well, people of CoH.
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You know, PP isn't the only new power this issue has been brought up. Brute's foc acc and soa's shatter armor off the top of my head. Maybe we should get a movement going.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Nope. Nor have they said why we can't have the pools be tier1*3, tier2, tier 3.
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"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
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I've never (ever) had a problem removing the endurance compromises in favor of superior performance. The only "big" compromise that you generally have to make at any point is taking and slotting Stamina (3 power choices and 2-3 extra slots). Of course, the big reason behind this is that many of the sets that I actually use already have end redux in them and it's actually worse for the build not to use those sets (re: ToD, Mako's, etc.).|
Originally Posted by Werner
Well, OK, yes. Once you've removed all compromises for endurance and are still at endurance sustainability, no, you won't get much benefit out of even more recovery. Does that happen? I always seem to find a way to burn through all the endurance I can get my hands on despite having made compromises to lower my endurance consumption.
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The issue still stands that you can't just throw in as many endurance assistance tools as you possibly can and expect to crank your performance to such a degree as to need all of that redundant endurance. If you take Stamina, PP, CP, and the auto accolades and get all of those powers slotted decently, chances are incredibly good that, unless you're running */DA (which is the outlier because it's one of the few sets based around using endurance as the limiting factor to its performance), you're going to be running with a substantial endurance surplus. You can't just crank up your endurance costs to increase your performance because you've got extra endurance to spend. If you did, everyone would go for as much endurance as they could possibly get because it would have a direct effect upon their actual performance.
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I know that on my MA/SR scrapper, with Stamina (with a Performance Shifter +End, and Numinas and a Miracle in Heal), and PP, I still run out of End and have to fire off CA periodically when fighting a string of large spawns.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
I've never (ever) had a problem removing the endurance compromises in favor of superior performance. The only "big" compromise that you generally have to make at any point is taking and slotting Stamina (3 power choices and 2-3 extra slots). Of course, the big reason behind this is that many of the sets that I actually use already have end redux in them and it's actually worse for the build not to use those sets (re: ToD, Mako's, etc.).
The issue still stands that you can't just throw in as many endurance assistance tools as you possibly can and expect to crank your performance to such a degree as to need all of that redundant endurance. If you take Stamina, PP, CP, and the auto accolades and get all of those powers slotted decently, chances are incredibly good that, unless you're running */DA (which is the outlier because it's one of the few sets based around using endurance as the limiting factor to its performance), you're going to be running with a substantial endurance surplus. You can't just crank up your endurance costs to increase your performance because you've got extra endurance to spend. If you did, everyone would go for as much endurance as they could possibly get because it would have a direct effect upon their actual performance. |
I'm running 5 or 6 toggles at all times, and with a fast attack chain I use end slightly faster than I can recover it. Maybe after I pick up a 2nd Performance Shifter + End.
Umbral, I am left thinking you ignored my post earlier.
Claws/SR. 100% IOed + Purple sets. Runs out of end with stamina at ED capped enhancement + performance shifter + all accolades + both recovery buffing uniques. This with fully IOed attacks and all the end reduction that comes with those sets.
3 SR toggles, tough, weave, cj.
DA is not alone in its heavy end usage. SR and DA are not alone. EVERY set that doesn't come with extra end management will have this issue.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Even sets that come with endurance management can have this issue. I used to be able to (very slowly) burn out my endurance on my Katana/Regen before they nerfed Focused Accuracy. I'm running a surplus now since I haven't respec'd, but if I were redoing my build, my guess is that I'd find some way to take advantage of the extra endurance instead of reducing my recovery. Hard to know, though.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
DA is not alone in its heavy end usage. SR and DA are not alone. EVERY set that doesn't come with extra end management will have this issue.
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I guess we're going to have to chalk this one up to different build experiences, and Umbral has probably put together quite a few more builds of more types than me. Perhaps the handful of high-performance scrapper builds I've put together have been outliers on their endurance use.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I've built innumerable (well, not "innumerable"; more than 20 different scrapper builds that I've got saved) easily endurance sustainable builds without the advent of Physical Perfection (which would just make it easier), so I'm not entirely sure what your problem is. Claws/SR isn't a particularly egregious blue bar burner, thanks to the lower comparative costs of Claws/* attacks.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Umbral, I am left thinking you ignored my post earlier.
Claws/SR. 100% IOed + Purple sets. Runs out of end with stamina at ED capped enhancement + performance shifter + all accolades + both recovery buffing uniques. This with fully IOed attacks and all the end reduction that comes with those sets. 3 SR toggles, tough, weave, cj. DA is not alone in its heavy end usage. SR and DA are not alone. EVERY set that doesn't come with extra end management will have this issue. |
I'm not ignoring your earlier post. I'm just not seeing where you're having difficulties. Of course, endurance sustainability is something that I naturally build towards and have even begun doing so with barely a thought for a vast majority of my builds so it might just be something that I do that doesn't occur to most people.
Either way, you're losing sight of the actual meaning of the phrase I used that started this entire debacle. I was referring, explicitly, to taking every endurance management tool available to you just because it's there. It's very rarely a good idea largely because it's redundant for so very many builds and that's expenditure in your build that isn't doing anything for you except when you're hit with end draining powers.
Of course it's better to take everything you can whenever you need help getting to the point of endurance solvency, but, after that, it's pointless to take more because that extra endurance isn't doing anything for you. Take everything you can until you get to the point but, after that, it's best to limit any additional endurance assistance you get specifically because it's not doing anything else. This is why I brought up the similarity to the defense soft cap: you should take as much as you can to get to the point but, after you attain it, it just serves as a generally unneeded buffer.
Or those that find it easy to attain endurance sustainability are doing so at the cost of damage output or mitigation.
Be well, people of CoH.
I don't think anyone covered this but..
Everyone(Well a few) is dismissing PPs Regen side of the power. When in fact for a /Regen it just adds to your mitigation. So I look at it as similar to the Blaster Epic power of Body Armor from Munitions Mastery. So depending on your secondary powers I'd say this power choice makes perfect sense. Also depending on your use for this power(I plan on respecing into it for PvP purposes..for heavy end draining enemy's) as a mule or for just set bonuses, it has its place if you can fit it into your build. If I can afford to give it slots I would have to go with 2 Heal IOs and 1 End Mod from Performance Shifter and its +End Proc like all have already said. If i can't find slots ill just slot the +End Proc when I respec.
Keep in mind my /Regen already has 2 +End Procs and the Panacea +End/+HP Proc plus all the Health Shines. So I'm looking to maximize my Regen and End recovery.
But thats just my take on Physical Perfection.