Looking for pvp infogeeks for a couple of questions
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2009-09-19 06:23 in Everything about PvP
1. Yes
2. Yes, but it was poorly implemented and has been reduced to trivial levels where it may as well just be deleted. IMO it was poorly thought out as a pvp idea regardless of whether it was implemented under the "old" system or the "new" one.
3. Yes
4. Yes, already asked in 1.
5. A lot. Most people suggest anything beyond 40% global is wasteful w/ hasten. I'm not sure how heavily they have slotted their powers though. I haven't tested it on my own yet.
Not sure if I'm following your last question, but arena has options to disable many of the gameplay mechanics introduced in i13. If you really want you can even turn off DR, though it has a lot of drawbacks to doing so. It is however common to shut of heal decay and travel suppression in arena which can have a pretty large effect from what I've seen.
Spiffy, ty
Edit: Deleted this post due to incorrect information.
Some attributes have different DR caps based on AT, is recharge one of them? I'm going to assume no, seeing as how recharge really isn't a "survivability" aspect like defense, resistance, and tohit are.
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Elusivity is a factor that is multiplied by the accuracy of the attack. This is unlike defense, which is subtracted from the "to hit" factor. It was initially 30% and subsequently nerfed to 10%.
As an example, my Huntsman, after adding accuracy enhancements and accuracy IO set bonuses, has an accuracy of about 2.0 on his attacks. If my target has the standard 10% elusivity, my accuracy becomes 1.8.
2.0 - ( 2.0 x 0.1 ) = 1.8
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I haven't seen a post by a dev or by Arcanaville to the effect that DR is applied globally to recharge (after being applied separately to recharge reduction enhancements). Do you have a link to such a post? I'd appreciate a look at it. Muchas gracias.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
1. Yes
2. Yes, but it was poorly implemented and has been reduced to trivial levels where it may as well just be deleted. IMO it was poorly thought out as a pvp idea regardless of whether it was implemented under the "old" system or the "new" one. 3. Yes 4. Yes, already asked in 1. 5. A lot. Most people suggest anything beyond 40% global is wasteful w/ hasten. I'm not sure how heavily they have slotted their powers though. I haven't tested it on my own yet. Not sure if I'm following your last question, but arena has options to disable many of the gameplay mechanics introduced in i13. If you really want you can even turn off DR, though it has a lot of drawbacks to doing so. It is however common to shut of heal decay and travel suppression in arena which can have a pretty large effect from what I've seen. |
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If they'd putz around with the system so your combat attributes monitor would actualy reflect the right numbers in pvp, then we'd know so much more!|
Originally Posted by Squidlington
Elusivity is a factor that is multiplied by the accuracy of the attack. This is unlike defense, which is subtracted from the "to hit" factor. It was initially 30% and subsequently nerfed to 10%.
As an example, my Huntsman, after adding accuracy enhancements and accuracy IO set bonuses, has an accuracy of about 2.0 on his attacks. If my target has the standard 10% elusivity, my accuracy becomes 1.8. 2.0 - ( 2.0 x 0.1 ) = 1.8 I haven't seen a post by a dev or by Arcanaville to the effect that DR is applied globally to recharge (after being applied separately to recharge reduction enhancements). Do you have a link to such a post? I'd appreciate a look at it. Muchas gracias. |
Though honest, I thought people stopped giving a **** about such things a while ago...
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I think I like messing with the numbers more than I like playing these days. I guess that's why I posted, since I haven't bothered to play in a week or two.
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Originally Posted by biff10426
If they'd putz around with the system so your combat attributes monitor would actualy reflect the right numbers in pvp, then we'd know so much more!
Though honest, I thought people stopped giving a **** about such things a while ago... |
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I only have her DR calculator. Recharge is hit pretty hard. I think these numbers are accurate for everyone...maybe heh.|
Originally Posted by Squidlington
Elusivity is a factor that is multiplied by the accuracy of the attack. This is unlike defense, which is subtracted from the "to hit" factor. It was initially 30% and subsequently nerfed to 10%.
As an example, my Huntsman, after adding accuracy enhancements and accuracy IO set bonuses, has an accuracy of about 2.0 on his attacks. If my target has the standard 10% elusivity, my accuracy becomes 1.8. 2.0 - ( 2.0 x 0.1 ) = 1.8 I haven't seen a post by a dev or by Arcanaville to the effect that DR is applied globally to recharge (after being applied separately to recharge reduction enhancements). Do you have a link to such a post? I'd appreciate a look at it. Muchas gracias. |
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Rech DR 10% 9.80% 20% 19% 30% 28% 40% 37% 50% 46% 60% 54% 70% 62% 80% 69% 90% 77% 100% 84% 110% 90% 120% 97% 130% 103% 140% 109% 150% 115% 160% 120% 170% 126% 180% 131% 190% 136% 200% 140%
I think that if you say had 68% rech slotting (ie thunderstrike set), hasten, and say 50% global rech then:
Blaze would normally recharge in 3.47 seconds.
but with DR it would recharge in 4.26 seconds.
Then again it might be split between two attributes and come out to something like 3.89 seconds. Or it may be DR'd way more than that, I'm not sure what actually happens really so I have very little confidence in what I just posted.
I know my pve perma dom isn't perma in pvp heh and on all my other toons hasten is down for a lot longer than it "should" be.
Maybe one of the 3 people in the game that understand how DR actually works, or have cared enough to figure it out will post.
*I'm assuming Castle actually knows how it works, Arcana, and one other dude out there must know it
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Ah, excellent. Thanks for the reply.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I only have her DR calculator. Recharge is hit pretty hard. I think these numbers are accurate for everyone...maybe heh.
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Rech DR 10% 9.80% 20% 19% 30% 28% 40% 37% 50% 46% 60% 54% 70% 62% 80% 69% 90% 77% 100% 84% 110% 90% 120% 97% 130% 103% 140% 109% 150% 115% 160% 120% 170% 126% 180% 131% 190% 136% 200% 140% I think that if you say had 68% rech slotting (ie thunderstrike set), hasten, and say 50% global rech then: Blaze would normally recharge in 3.47 seconds. but with DR it would recharge in 4.26 seconds. Then again it might be split between two attributes and come out to something like 3.89 seconds. Or it may be DR'd way more than that, I'm not sure what actually happens really so I have very little confidence in what I just posted. I know my pve perma dom isn't perma in pvp heh and on all my other toons hasten is down for a lot longer than it "should" be. Maybe one of the 3 people in the game that understand how DR actually works, or have cared enough to figure it out will post. *I'm assuming Castle actually knows how it works, Arcana, and one other dude out there must know it . |
The DR formula has two constants, A and B, that are set according to what is being modified and for whom. The table you have there is for A = 0.33 and B = 0.80, which are the DR constants used for enhancements. So using your Thunderstrike example again, you start with 68.9% recharge reduction. I know that DR is applied to the Thunderstrikes (using A = 0.33 and B = 0.80), which brings that down to 61.0%. The question I have is whether and when the 120% (from your 50% global and Hasten) also gets hit. I've been assuming it doesn't, since I thought I hadn't seen it mentioned before in Arcanaville's posts, but #12 on Arcanaville's list might indicate otherwise.
I think I'm going to go time one of my long-recharge powers and find out for sure. Thanks again for the reply. I'm used to being ignored when it comes to DR math.
I'm confident recharge buffs are hit too, I'm just not sure whether you lump all rech in as one value or if rech enhancements are hit with DR and rech buffs are hit separately with DR.
If it is separate that is a bit more friendly in terms of player punishment.
So in the example I used I'm unsure if the 68.9% (enhancement) is hit down to 61.05% and the 50+70% (buff) is hit down to 97% for a total of 165.9%.
Or if it lumps them together and reduces the 188.9% down to 135.3%
Any testing you do please share the results.
Edit: or it reduced the enhancement value down to 61% then you add that to the buff value of 120% and then that sum (Cur) gets reduced again down to a total of 131%. Maybe I'll take a look at the guide you linked. I've never done anything other than play with the DR calculator and get sad at pvp.
Edit: my gut says it is either the one that reduces it down to 135, or the one that does it down to 131, just because the other option doesn't hit it very hard and you'd barely notice it, but really I don't know.
Definitely either 135 or 131. But I can't say which for sure due to the small difference between them, the fact that Hasten drops before the recharge finishes, and my half-***** way of timing.
Man, that sucks. Here I thought I had all the numbers right, and now I get this curveball. Oh well, I guess it's good that I'm losing interest now.
I did some testing with this because my understanding of DR was lacking. I used Mind Link as my test power due to its 300sec base recharge. The toon had 111.25% recharge and 66.6% recharge slotting from enhancements.
DR Maths
111.25 -> 90.5
66.6 -> 58
90.5+58 = 148.5
Apply DR to that
148.5 -> 114
Mind link with 114% recharge should recharge in 140.1 seconds, and in game testing showed that it did recharge in 2mins 20sec.
Can't really comment about hasten because it wouldn't be up for the entire duration of the mind link recharge, and my math isn't strong enough to account for that.
Oh jeez that was another option that I didn't even want to entertain as it hits even harder.
So it DR's "enhancement" as one value, also DR's "global, or buff" as one value, then puts the two together and DR's that total.
So for the example I gave of 68.9% slotting, and 120% global it should come out to:
68.9 -->61
120 -->96.9
61+96.9 = 157.9
which is then DR'd again down to
119.3%
Which in the case of being applied to blaze would take the power from an expected
3.46 sec rech to 4.56 sec
Using that same amount of rech applied to a longer base rech power like buildup (base 90) that would take it from expected
31.2 sec rech to 41 sec
I'll jump on tonight and test this out because that seems more negative than it should be. That really looks like it is being double punished and that just seems silly.
That would be like if you went to buy something and they added the provincial tax and then took that new total and added to Federal tax ontop of that. That just isn't how it is done.
It sounds accurate given how hard DR guts things, but jeez.
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How did you manage 111.25% global recharge? Seems like the "rule of five" might inhibit that.
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Originally Posted by LuxunS
I did some testing with this because my understanding of DR was lacking. I used Mind Link as my test power due to its 300sec base recharge. The toon had 111.25% recharge and 66.6% recharge slotting from enhancements.
DR Maths 111.25 -> 90.5 66.6 -> 58 90.5+58 = 148.5 Apply DR to that 148.5 -> 114 Mind link with 114% recharge should recharge in 140.1 seconds, and in game testing showed that it did recharge in 2mins 20sec. Can't really comment about hasten because it wouldn't be up for the entire duration of the mind link recharge, and my math isn't strong enough to account for that. |
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Originally Posted by Squidlington
How did you manage 111.25% global recharge? Seems like the "rule of five" might inhibit that.
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Not even close. I have 4 toons with that much or more. They are all old i12 builds though.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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Fine, spell it out. I'm curious about the sets.
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Originally Posted by ConFlict
Not even close. I have 4 toons with that much or more. They are all old i12 builds though.
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As con said, its not terribly difficult to do. There is room for more, but that's what I needed for my purposes.|
Originally Posted by Squidlington
How did you manage 111.25% global recharge? Seems like the "rule of five" might inhibit that.
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4x 10% from purples
5x 7.5% from lotgs
4x 5% from crushing impact/adjusted targeting
1x 6.25 from decimation
1x 7.5 from kinetic crash
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That seems to be exactly the case. I fiddled around with lots of possibilities to find the one that explained why mind link was recharging in that amount of time. That one fits mathematically, and fits with arcana's explaination.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Oh jeez that was another option that I didn't even want to entertain as it hits even harder.
So it DR's "enhancement" as one value, also DR's "global, or buff" as one value, then puts the two together and DR's that total. |
It does suck
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Sounds expensive. Waaaaay too expensive for me. |
Originally Posted by LuxunS
As con said, its not terribly difficult to do. There is room for more, but that's what I needed for my purposes.
4x 10% from purples 5x 7.5% from lotgs 4x 5% from crushing impact/adjusted targeting 1x 6.25 from decimation 1x 7.5 from kinetic crash |
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The way DR works is that it works on totals. This can be a bit confusing, so an example would be helpful.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I'm confident recharge buffs are hit too, I'm just not sure whether you lump all rech in as one value or if rech enhancements are hit with DR and rech buffs are hit separately with DR.
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Suppose I have two tohit buffs on me: Tactics and Aim. In that case, the buff from tactics and the buff from aim are added together, and the total is subject to DR. The net result is the net buff I get from both.
But suppose both tactics and aim are slotted with tohit enhancements. In that case, the enhancements themselves are *also* subject to DR. But because the +tohit enhancement slotted into Aim is separate from the +tohit enhancement slotted into Tactics, those slottings are hit by DR separately.
So you add up all the tohit enhancement slotted into tactics, and apply DR. That becomes the net enhancement that tactics "sees." You do the same thing to the tohit enhancements slotted into aim.
Then you take the buff from tactics - with the DR reduced slotting - and the buff from aim - also with its DR reduced slotting - and add them together. Then you apply DR to the final total, and *that* is the buff I get.
It all sounds complex, but the rule is: DR affects totals. You total up all the enhancements slotted into Aim, and DR hits that. Does DR hit the value of Aim (with slotting) itself? No, because that value is an incremental buff that could be added to other things. DR only hits the number at the end. If it helps, ask yourself this: what is the buff applied to. In the case of enhancements the buff is applied to the strength of the power itself. So you total up *all* the enhancements and apply DR. What is Aim's tohit buff applied to? A player. So you have to add up *all* tohit buffs for the player before you apply DR.
That's why you do not apply DR to Aim's numbers itself. You are actually applying DR to *the player's net tohit buffs* after they receive *all of them*. Contrawise, you apply DR to Aim's slotting after you tally up all of Aim's slotting. DR affects modifiers as those modifiers are applied to their target.
Hopefully I've explained that clearly enough.
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An example using global buffs would have been even more handy 
I think I get it for things like tohit and from the defense example you provided in the guide.
basically enhances get DR'd on a per power basis, and then you sum for that attribute then the total for that attribute gets DR'd again.
The thing that has been throwing me for a loop is global recharge (well global buffs in general). It's easy to see where enhancements fall in the system, but is it also treating global buffs (ie rech, acc, damage) as strength buffs, but separate to the strength buffs contained within the power?
Like if I wanted to explain it to someone in game would it be accurate to tell them that the system pretends (or that it is simpler if we pretend) that global buffs are basically enhancements of an invisible power so they get DR'd separate from the enhancements of the actual power and then added together and the grand total is DR'd again.
I got hung up trying to explain this the other day, I could do an example for tohit like you did, but when asked where global buffs fall in I drew a blank at explaining and understanding why they are DR'd separately before being tallied with the enhancements and the total being DR'd.
Like it makes sense when you have multiple powers doing the same thing. The strength buff for each is DR'd individually and then the total is hit, but where do global buffs fit in the grand scheme.
thx
Does that make sense?
DR feels like I haven't paid my visa bill
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If I understand what you are asking, then no.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
AThe thing that has been throwing me for a loop is global recharge (well global buffs in general). It's easy to see where enhancements fall in the system, but is it also treating global buffs (ie rech, acc, damage) as strength buffs, but separate to the strength buffs contained within the power?
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Suppose you have a global accuracy buff. When you fire an attack, the game presumes that your accuracy is the accuracy of the power plus the accuracy slotted into the attack for the purposes of that attack. So at that moment in time, the game will calculate the total accuracy enhancements, apply ED, then add your global accuracy buff, and *then* apply DR to that final total, and then that will be the accuracy of the attack.
The same thing would be true for Damage. Both Accuracy and Damage work the same way as things like Tohit, the only difference is that Accuracy and Damage are situational based on power slotting, whereas tohit generally isn't.
Put it this way: you *never* add a number affected by DR to another number affected by DR. If you were meant to add them, you were meant to add them and apply DR at the end (of course, that's per attribute: I'm not counting things like subtracting a DR-modified defense from a DR-modified tohit).
So if you are doing calculations and you are applying DR to a number, and then adding another number, something has gone wrong. Of course, DR-modified numbers are *multipled* all the time: buffs are multiplicative to their base value, so when you have +35% damage that is a multipler: base * 1.35. But as far as I can think of at the moment, adding two DRed numbers implies you did something wrong.
That might be the simplest rule of thumb that helps reinforce when DR occurs in the calculations, at least to the best of my knowledge.
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So are you saying that in the case of Mind Link that LuxunS cited earlier with 66.6% rech slotting and 111.25% global it should be applying DR to the total only? (that was my first inclination when I posted an example for blaze; that it tallies all rech before DR'ing it, though admittedly I wasn't that confident in that assessment as I'd never actually tested it).
But rather than continue to try and figure something out with no numbers I just went and tested it with Fiery Embrace on my dom.
97.4% slotting
81.25% global rech
=178.65%
=180/2.7865 =64.59 sec rech (which is what it was in normal zone)
With DR it should be
178.65 --> 130.18
=240/2.3018 = 78.20 seconds in pvp, or 1 min 18 sec and change in pvp.
That is accurate. I think I was confused because LuxunS may have been a bit off in his testing for mindlink that led me to think recharge was being double DR'd. I know my testing almost got screwed up because I had that masterpredator buff that expired in the middle of the pvp test and threw the whole thing off by like 4 seconds, but subsequent retesting fixed that.
Anyway thanks for the info, everything fits nicely together now.
Glad arcana is here as your math and game mechanics understanding far surpasses my own. Let me try to see if I understand this now.
1. Take the recharge bonus from enhancements, apply ED, apply DR
2. Take the global recharge bonus, add to DR applied enhancement bonus
3. Apply DR to the total
4. Apply DR total to Mind Link's Base Recharge time (300s)
1. 66.6% (no ed applied) -> 59.5% after DR
2. 111.25% + 59.5% = 170.75 %
3. 170.75% -> 126.3%
4. 300 / (1+1.263) = 132.6s
Now If I understood that wrong and DR is applied to the total recharge bonus applied to the power like Frosticus did...
1. Take the recharge bonus from enhancements, apply ED, add the recharge bonus from global recharge
2. Apply DR to the total
3. Apply DR total to Mind Link's Base Recharge time (300s)
1. 66.6% + 111.25% = 177.85%
2. 177.85% -> 130%
3. 300 / (1+1.30) = 130.4s
But I went back in game and rechecked all my numbers. The only thing I know for certain is that with 111.25% global and 66.6% enhancement recharge slotting, Mind Link recharges in 140s. I tested this several times and had no non-permanent recharge buffs (no hasten, predator, etc). I would expect a small margin of error in my timing; several tenths of a second, maybe one second, but over 7 seconds surely not.
Any insight would be appreciated. Not sure if I'm making a mistake with my math somewhere, but this just isn't adding up for me.
What I understand of the pvp zones and how they affect powers are encapsulated in what mids shows me. I understand that mez is shortened, damage on a lot of abilities goes funhouse mirror, resists (for the most part) are increased and recharge goes down.
What I don't understand, and would like to, is how ellusivity still affects things. How mez and debuff stacking work (or don't work). Whether there are diminishing returns on things.
Do debuffs and mez have diminishing returns?
Is elusivity still implemented?
Does it only affect defense toggles?
Does Mez have diminishing returns?
How much recharge do you lose in pvp?
I know that people are going to want to toss in their opinions about how "this or that" part of "this issue" that did "that thing" ruined the world of pvp forever and ever, but it's really not necessary. I'm just looking for details to add to my model so that I can more effectively know how my toons funcion in zones and arena's.
Oh and do zones and arenas have different under the hood penalties/buffs (so not the zone buffs that show up on the bar)?