Replace debt

I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with granting permanent buffs based on completing challenges without dying. When you make something permanent and beneficial, people start to feel like they need to have it to keep up with everyone else. If the challenge to get it is difficult enough, they complain about being prevented from getting things which are rightfully theirs, talk about how their AT/sets/whatever reduce them to begging for pity spots, etc. In fact, just the fact that the completion badge, never mind the masters badge, for the RSF is a prereq for a villainside accolade has already been a bone of contention. So I would be careful with that.

A moderate-duration temporary bonus would probably be the kind of thing that would work well. For instance, each mission you complete without dying might grant a draw from the Mystic Fortune deck. That's a minor, but useful, 20 minute buff.

I feel the reputation system, as an average across all users, is useless as an objective measure of merit. There are reputation systems that I think might produce interesting information, but they're more complex and rarely implemented. I have the same objection to the MA rating system, actually, but that's another topic.

Are we talking about Superman?


In response to losing influence over gaining debt antagonists, I suggested it because you have to lose something. I mean what else do players care about to the extent of making death a penalty; influence/infamy seemed to be the way to go.

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha ...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...

This is one of those things I'll remember forever and smile every time it crosses my mind. Thank you, Kelenar And I actually do agree with your basic premise.

In my opinion, punishment sucks. Period. I understand the need for some kind of balancing mechanic such that you can't just keep flinging your body at a problem until it eventually topples over under the weight of random chance, believe me. To me, the problem stems from the fact that we have a REALLY persistent world. You can die in a mission, ship off to the hospital, come back, and everything will be as you left it. Under such a system, OF COURSE people will likely just keep on trying and keep on chipping away and win in much the same way as the grunts in Quake try to defeat the player - rush in and try to do as much damage as possible before you die, then let the next one pick up where you left off.

However, I am still not a fan of a system that punishes. Really, when you get down to it, the idea of such a system is to make you feel lousy for losing, so that you're not going to want to lose. To me, any game that's designed to motivate the player by making them feel bad is simply flawed in its inception. Well, unless it's some kind of survival horror or heart-wrenching drama, but that's more for dramatic effect. In an MMO, this is simply a result of a design philosophy which dictates that games are serious business, and sucking in a game should, therefore, seriously suck in real life, too. Most games take the route of slapping you across the face by yanking hours upon hours of honest-to-God work from right under you over the smallest mistake. And that SUCKS!

Frankly, about the best "death penalty" I've ever seen has been in games with a quick-save feature and a permanent "Game Over" end when you die. For instance, in Half-Life, every time you died, that was it. The game was over and there were no continues, no extra lives, no respawning. Nothing. The only thing you could do is reload an older save and try again. But here's the thing - you can't just bum-rush Nihilath, do a bit of damage, die, respawn, do a bit of damage, die, respawn, repeat. Simply put, every time you died, the encounter restarted.

Now, of course, this isn't really possible in a multi-player game, and in fact it's a problem that is CLEARLY evident in the old Windows 3.11 Load Runner game. A single-player Load Runner played just like Load Runner always has - if you got killed, the stage restarted and you had to do it all over again. In a Two player game, however, the stage never reset, because even if one Load Runner died, the other was typically still alive and running around, so it didn't make sense to yank HIS life and restart. This led to a game that was VASTLY easier in two-player mode than it was in single-player mode. Battle Toads, on the other hand, took the opposite approach - when one player dies, BOTH players die, and they both have to restart.

So what does any of this have to do with City of Heroes? Well, to be honest, I'd actually like to see at the very least the spawn you died to respawn entirely as soon as you ship out to the hospital. None of that nonsense of beating an Elite Boss down to half health, then returning to beat him down to nothing. I would hesitate to go as far as to suggest restarting MISSIONS, but I would honestly prefer a save point style system of encouraging good play over a feel-bad system of punishment for discouraging bad play. I suspect such a thing might actually make people appreciate self-rez powers more. If being able to resurrect yourself making the difference between having a tough fight restart or being able to continue fighting, that might make these powers a lot more appealing. I've always seen them as an extra life, but of course you still get debt when you die, and you need to be dead to use them, so many regard them as unnecessary.

Generally, I'm a fan of encouraging good play over discouraging bad play. By far the WORST thing that could happen to this game is for players to be skittish and afraid for their lives all the time, always playing safe and never taking chances, throwing hissy fits when they die. We're heroes! We're supposed to be brave and fearless and ready to leap into battle even against enormous odds. We should NOT be afraid of losing.

I want a game where I feel like I could take chances and live the adventure. I don't want one where I'm afraid of the dark.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This. Absolutely this.

Now, having said that, there are some times when the best option is to sacrifice yourself. There are reasons blasters get Rise of the Phoenix, after all. When my blaster knows that he's going to die, he charges right into the fray where he knows he can do the most damage when he pops that power. The stun effect when he uses it will help the team as well.

Players shouldn't be penalized for tactical self-sacrifice.


Which makes me wonder if a different approach shouldn't be used here. What if you tried something like this:

• If you use a wakie, hospital or base teleporter to rez yourself, you are subject to a 1 minute period of fatigue. During this period, you consume endurance at a slightly higher rate. Also, your accuracy is slightly reduced, and your damage output is reduced.
• If you or a teammate use a power to rez you, you are not subject to the effects of fatigue.
• Fatigue penalties from multiple deaths stack.

Naturally, don't make the penalties excessive. You'd likely be able to compensate for them with team-based buffs.

But rather than messing with debt (which has been fiddled with countless times), or taking away people's XP (which might cause an uproar), give them a mechanic which basically represents the whole "Holy cow, dude, you just died! How's Elvis?" thing.

But you should feel woozy after dying! You died, dude! Take a moment or two to collect your thoughts and contemplate your navel.