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15% less damage than scrappers at level 10. 18% less by level 12. Scrappers always have 25% lower resistance and defense values than tankers.|
Originally Posted by Shrewd
They should nearly be invunerable to damage from the start if their damage is going to suck that bad.
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It sucks that bad.
*runs off to slot fire shield instead of his attacks*
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I think you have a complete misconception of not only the tanker class, but game balance. Ask yourself this question: if a tanker could do awesome (or even good) damage AND have good survivability, right from level 1, what would be the point of playing any other class? Also, what would be to improve as you leveled up to 50? |
Originally Posted by Shrewd
I completely agree with this statement. I too feel this is a HUGE and I mean HUGE playability issue. For COH, tankers are just the suck and i too have never managed to get into one long enough to move forward with one. I quit the game long ago before i could as well. I recently came back to see what improvements have happened, and am still utterly disappointed in low lvl tanks.... your damage is so unbeliebably low and your tanking is unbelieveably bad... = the suck.
They should nearly be invunerable to damage from the start if their damage is going to suck that bad.... so they can focus on damage to make the experience more manageable... But if you want something that is not just manageable but actually fun to play... they need alot more of both. Otherwise what the hell is super about these super character except their super suck. |
If tankers started out "invulnerable" while dealing massive damage and never running out of endurance right from Atlas Park, then this would be City of Tankers, not City of Heroes/Villains.
Anyway, as others have said, two builds are the way to go, one for teaming/survivability, the other for solo/damage. It takes alot of knowledge, alot of expensive slotting, and very high levels, before you can get the kind of tank you seem to be dreaming of.
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This is really just bad advice. Never, EVER slot for end reduction over damage in attacks. Slotting damage is universally better until you've hit the ED soft cap.|
Originally Posted by Kurugi
At lower levels I'd really only slot accuracy and end reduction in your attacks. Damage is nice, but IMO it's more important to be able to maintain endurance and not whiff your attacks before you have access to stamina and SOs.
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Take, for example, a power that does 1 damage for 1 endurance. It has a Damage-to-Endurance ratio of 1. Enhanced to 100% for damage, it will do 2 damage for 1 endurance, for a Damage-to-Endurance ratio of 2. Similarly, enhancing it to 100% for endurance makes it take half a point of endurance, which also results in a Damage-to-Endurance ratio of 2. Now, both enhancement setups will defeat an enemy with 4 HP using 2 endurance, but the setup enhanced for damage will do it with only 2 applications. Do you see? Enhancing a power for damage increases its endurance efficiency just as much as enhancing it for endurance cost reduction, while also making the power stronger. That means you'll kill things faster with less endurance, increasing your xp gain and shortening your trip to the high levels.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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I'd still say add in the accuracy. If you don't hit you're not very end efficient either way.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
This is really just bad advice. Never, EVER slot for end reduction over damage in attacks. Slotting damage is universally better until you've hit the ED soft cap.
Take, for example, a power that does 1 damage for 1 endurance. It has a Damage-to-Endurance ratio of 1. Enhanced to 100% for damage, it will do 2 damage for 1 endurance, for a Damage-to-Endurance ratio of 2. Similarly, enhancing it to 100% for endurance makes it take half a point of endurance, which also results in a Damage-to-Endurance ratio of 2. Now, both enhancement setups will defeat an enemy with 4 HP using 2 endurance, but the setup enhanced for damage will do it with only 2 applications. Do you see? Enhancing a power for damage increases its endurance efficiency just as much as enhancing it for endurance cost reduction, while also making the power stronger. That means you'll kill things faster with less endurance, increasing your xp gain and shortening your trip to the high levels. |
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I'm going to give you some advice that runs counter to what's already here. I won't claim this is the best or only way to play, but I've used these principles with lowbie tanks and had fun and kept the team alive and happy, which was success, to me. Also, this is not intended to be applicable to scrankers, kheldians in tank form, or those who don't intend to take taunt.
Take every active defense your primary offers, as soon as you can. I tend to just use three slots, all damage resist or defense. (Later you can slot more if you want IO sets.) Take them as soon as you can get them. Staying alive longer gives the team longer to defeat the enemies, heal up, etc. Live tanks protect the team much, much better than dead tanks. If there are active defenses (toggles) available at levelling-up time, that's what I pick from. Passive defenses don't give as much protection, so I've let those go longer.
Take the heal if you get one. Same reasons.
Don't take a lot of attacks, and make the ones you do take count. Pre-SO (and really, pre-IO sets), tanker attacks don't do a lot of damage, but they do cost a lot of endurance. When you run out of endurance, your attack chain is what you spent it on. Pre-stamina, you can stand around all day with every armor toggle running and still keep a full blue bar even with no end reducers slotted. You can turn them all off and run yourself out of endurance pretty easily by using a bunch of attacks. Thus, attacks are where most of your endurance is going, and you can do two things about that: take fewer attacks, and slot the ones you do take to do more damage and cost less endurance. You will stand around between swings a bit, but you won't let the team down by running out of end and dropping your shields, then dying and letting the aggro loose.
If you get a damage aura, take it. Slot it with accuracy and end reduction as soon as you can. It's not that much damage against any one thing, but it's one or two less attacks the team has to make against every enemy that spends the whole fight in your damage aura. Also it will help in holding aggro a bit. If my primary offers a damage aura, I don't tend to take a second attack until I can pick up an AoE or something with additional use like Siphon Life.
Take, slot, and use Taunt. Though tauntless builds can work, Taunt is a very direct way to affect the outcome of the battle. I think of it as a control power, except instead of status "held", the mobs are status "wasting time trying to kill the tank". If your defenses are strong and the team is backing you up, it's just as good. I'm a fan of frankenslotted Taunt for duration, range, and recharge.
As far as the sets you've tried, Inv is strong. Fire seems to require a bit of help, and works better for an offensive build. Dark is very solid (other than knockback, which you'll have to fix at some point). DB isn't a set I'd pick for a tank, as I get too distracted by the combos, but I'm sure it could work. I've had good results so far with inv/axe, dark/dark, will/dark, and dark/mace.
So, in short, my approach is to invest heavily in the defenses and limit my attacks, especially the single-target ones that don't do anything but more damage. Fun for me comes from being able to do this and hold the front line, letting the team do its job, and ignoring the relative lack of orange numbers, trusting that they will come when the AoEs are available in the 30s.
Virtue
Angel Witch II - Chord of Souls - Storm Witch II - Princess of the Dawn - Standing Horse - Witch of Xymox
Silent Scream - Shadow Witch II - Liquid Serenade - Nebulous Dawn - Ghost Witch II -Xiberia
Angel Witch II - Chord of Souls - Storm Witch II - Princess of the Dawn - Standing Horse - Witch of Xymox
Silent Scream - Shadow Witch II - Liquid Serenade - Nebulous Dawn - Ghost Witch II -Xiberia
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I'm no mathematician, but something doesn't seem right in your analogy, and yes I know its an 'ideal'.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
This is really just bad advice. Never, EVER slot for end reduction over damage in attacks. Slotting damage is universally better until you've hit the ED soft cap.
Take, for example, a power that does 1 damage for 1 endurance. It has a Damage-to-Endurance ratio of 1. Enhanced to 100% for damage, it will do 2 damage for 1 endurance, for a Damage-to-Endurance ratio of 2. Similarly, enhancing it to 100% for endurance makes it take half a point of endurance, which also results in a Damage-to-Endurance ratio of 2. Now, both enhancement setups will defeat an enemy with 4 HP using 2 endurance, but the setup enhanced for damage will do it with only 2 applications. Do you see? Enhancing a power for damage increases its endurance efficiency just as much as enhancing it for endurance cost reduction, while also making the power stronger. That means you'll kill things faster with less endurance, increasing your xp gain and shortening your trip to the high levels. |
I'm sure most powers don't have a 1:1 endurance to damage ratio. In fact, AoEs (for example) or powers with secondary effects (stuns, holds etc) always tend to cost more than a "pure" damage ability.
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Your analysis is nice and all, but when you hit 0 endurance, six slotting damage enhancers still produces 0 dmg.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
This is really just bad advice. Never, EVER slot for end reduction over damage in attacks. Slotting damage is universally better until you've hit the ED soft cap.
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Freedom:
Biggo Shaker (SS/FA Brute)
Timbuck (SS/FA Brute)
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Not to mention the fact that no endurance slotting means that misses (and you will have some, whether you slot Accuracy or not) cost full endurance and produce 0 damage.
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Originally Posted by JumpinJackSlash
Your analysis is nice and all, but when you hit 0 endurance, six slotting damage enhancers still produces 0 dmg.
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My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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I understand what Vanden is saying, except I'd alter it to say, "until you begin seeing diminishing returns from slotting damage." That means, generally, after 2 damage SOs, you're starting to see slightly less effect in DPE by slotting another damage SO than by slotting an endurance SO. It's certainly fine to slot that 3rd damage SO, but preferably after slotting an endurance SO.|
Originally Posted by JumpinJackSlash
Your analysis is nice and all, but when you hit 0 endurance, six slotting damage enhancers still produces 0 dmg.
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I also hate missing, so accuracy comes before either. Without any sets, bonuses or perma powers like Rage or Focused Accuracy, I like to have 2 accuracies slotted in most attack powers (assuming their base to-hit is below 90%), at least at levels where I am facing +2s or higher.
Most sets provide enough inherent accuracy to fall in-between slotting 1 or 2 accuracies, which I think is just perfect. Looking at a 5-slotted ST attack using Crushing Impact (or Thunderstrike) as an example, when slotted to use the "first five" of those IOs in Mid's is what I generally consider my ideal balance for a normal ST attack. Obviously, "big hitters" and AoE attacks may be slotted differently to get the most out of them.
This is all IMO, though.
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I think the original recommendation to slot Accuracy and End Red before Damage was regarding pre-SO slotting, so diminishing returns really don't come into it much. |
Originally Posted by Failsight
I understand what Vanden is saying, except I'd alter it to say, "until you begin seeing diminishing returns from slotting damage." That means, generally, after 2 damage SOs, you're starting to see slightly less effect in DPE by slotting another damage SO than by slotting an endurance SO. It's certainly fine to slot that 3rd damage SO, but preferably after slotting an endurance SO.
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Even though I think Vanden's analysis is too simplistic, since it doesn't take into account damage lost due to misses, and the possibility that the player will have to wait between attacks when endurance is low, it is quite possible that only slotting damage is more efficient in terms of DPE.
But I think playstyle issues are an equally important part of the equation. Damage before End Red probably works well for scrapper, but for tanks, attacking frequently is an efficient way to leverage Gauntlet for aggro control. And for brutes, being able to keep attacking is extremely important for building Fury.
We shouldn't discount personal preferences, either. In the early levels, I'd much rather have enough endurance to keep attacking than stand around waiting for my blue bar to fill enough to use my big hitter attacks. I may be the only tank player that feels that way, but I doubt it.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
You're not, I always 4-slot my attacks early on, 2 Acc/2 Endred. The other slots go into my defenses.
I also make use of the dual-build feature (it's much easier in my case as I can make L15 basic IOs in bulk with my crafting character) to set up one build for solo and one for teaming. The solo build takes more attacks and delays some toggles (tbh you don't need many of the toggles until rather high levels solo unless you like to push the slider), while the team build takes fewer attacks, Taunt, and all the defenses as soon as they open up.
I also tend to build with survival in mind, so I take an attack set that plays off the primary in order to stack additional mitigation. For example, I decided to take Dark Melee on my Dark Armor tank for two reasons: one, the additional self-heal allows me to use Dark Regen a lot less often, which is a HUGE End savings; two, the end recovery from Dark Consumption means I can run DA's toggles and not pass out from attacking (this tank is not IOed out yet), which means I can run Cloak of Fear and stack Touch of fear with it to keep even Bosses perma-feared and whiffing.
That combo also happens to (at least partially) cover DM's relative lack of AoE damage by running Death Shroud.
Now that tanks have Electric armor, I have an Elec/DM planned that will be VERY hard to kill once I have SO-grade enhancements plugged in.
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A basic problem with enhancing for damage instead of endredux at low levels is that, if they have the same efficiency, characters can still only kill at the same rate due to endurance. If one build kills faster, it has to wait longer simply because there's less time spent fighting. Now, that can translate directly into increased survivability, or more frequent use of rest and therefore higher recovery, but players are often incapable of controlling themselves. If they have a power, they must click it. If they're alive, they must go to the next group of enemies. |
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Even though I think Vanden's analysis is too simplistic, since it doesn't take into account damage lost due to misses, and the possibility that the player will have to wait between attacks when endurance is low, it is quite possible that only slotting damage is more efficient in terms of DPE.
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Slotting for endredux instead of dmg forces efficiency on those that aren't capable of handling the shorter fights to their long term advantage.
If it takes 100 endurance to kill a lieutentant, and player 1 defeats the lieut in 30 seconds, while player 2 instantly kills the lieut in 1 shot, player 2 will complain more about endurance because (s)he runs out of endurance every fight while player 1 has 30 seconds worth of recovery left.
re: Damage vs Endurance slotting
I think damage slotting has a lot of benefits going for it over endurance. When slotted for damage, you'll be able to kill mobs faster than a build with end slotting. This has several key benefits. First, it means each fight will eat into your health less than an end reduc build. Since end recovers four times faster than health, it's much better to be waiting for end to come back than health. Killing faster also means dropping troublesome mobs faster. It could be a mob that deals a lot of damage, has nasty debuffs, etc. The faster you kill it, the less trouble you'll be in. Also, killing faster will yield more inspirations in a shorter time frame. (Obviously, using those can help keep your momentum up.)
The biggest con to damage enhancement over end reduc is that you'll deal more overkill. Given the other benefits, though, I think damage wins. (Btw, Finduilas, missing doesn't penalize damage slotting more than end reduc. Keep in mind that full end reduc slotting would require you to use twice as many attacks, meaning twice as many chances to miss.)
(The above assumes accuracy enhancement. I don't think there is any disagreement that accuracy trumps everything else.)
At any rate, if you want to maximize DPE, mixing the two will yield the highest results. For example, a standard scale 1 attack (ex: Energy Punch) costs 5.2 end. So:
Base
1 dmg, 5.2 end, 0.1923 DPE
Dmg *3
1.95 dmg, 5.2 end, 0.375 DPE
End *3
1 dmg, 2.667 end, 0.375 DPE
Dmg *2, End *1
1.666 dmg, 3.9 end, 0.4271 DPE
Dmg *1, End *2
1.333 dmg, 3.121 end, 0.4271 DPE
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But it doesn't necessarily take twice as many attacks to defeat a foe without damage slotting as it does with damage slotting; you said yourself that overkill is an issue. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
re: Damage vs Endurance slotting
The biggest con to damage enhancement over end reduc is that you'll deal more overkill. Given the other benefits, though, I think damage wins. (Btw, Finduilas, missing doesn't penalize damage slotting more than end reduc. Keep in mind that full end reduc slotting would require you to use twice as many attacks, meaning twice as many chances to miss.) |
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| (The above assumes accuracy enhancement. I don't think there is any disagreement that accuracy trumps everything else.) |
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At any rate, if you want to maximize DPE, mixing the two will yield the highest results. For example, a standard scale 1 attack (ex: Energy Punch) costs 5.2 end. So: Base 1 dmg, 5.2 end, 0.1923 DPE Dmg *3 1.95 dmg, 5.2 end, 0.375 DPE End *3 1 dmg, 2.667 end, 0.375 DPE Dmg *2, End *1 1.666 dmg, 3.9 end, 0.4271 DPE Dmg *1, End *2 1.333 dmg, 3.121 end, 0.4271 DPE |
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Inv/SS gets better in the low 20s. My tanker (stuck at 24, I just haven't been in the mood) was EZ-mode on a team. Sure, she did piss damage but you don't do damage as a tanker.
You taunt and hit the things you need hitting you. I found the experience gets rather dull after a while, but...
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
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Yes. |
Originally Posted by Leeksoup
Is there some trick I'm missing, some little detail that makes tanking fun? I know if I ever manage to get a tanker to 40+ it'll be good, but how can I get there? Thanks.
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Tankers, as some people here have alluded to, are notoriously squishy early on (combinations of gauntlet, taunt and taunt aura). But you have to realize that your job in the early game is a little different than your job in the later game. In the early game your job is to keep the mob aggroed on you, not your teammates, and if that means you die, well at least it was only you rather than a whole team wipe.
In the later game your job changes a little. Because now it's not just the effort to keep aggro on you. You also have to survive that aggro. That's your job 32+. Keep aggro, survive in order to keep more aggro. Dealing damage is certainly a bonus, but if you're not having fun fulfilling your tanker "jobs" then tanking is not for you.
Good luck and have fun!
They should nearly be invunerable to damage from the start if their damage is going to suck that bad.... so they can focus on damage to make the experience more manageable...
But if you want something that is not just manageable but actually fun to play... they need alot more of both. Otherwise what the hell is super about these super character except their super suck.
But it's just as frustrating on many other characters Pre-Stamina and Pre-SO's. For example, Brutes often have massive endurance issues in the low levels, despite being a high damage AT. Tankers by no means have the monopoly on this.
The best advice I can give is to come up with a concept you like, slot intelligently for endurance management, and just tough it out. After all, the low levels don't take that long. Put together a team, run a bunch of missions, you'll be 20 (or higher) in the blink of an eye.
Trust me, it does get better. Much much better.