I don't think the fix is making Regen stronger with SOs, it's making IO sets that do for Regen what IO sets do for Shields, SR, etc.
I don't understand why we get such high defense bonuses, but not equivalent boosts to Regen, HP, & resists.
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Well, isn't the best enhancement bonus to get for /Regen +recharge? Unfortunately, the best way to get that is through IOs that tend to be very pricey, which is something that tends to be much less of an issue for characters going for +defense, unless you are really trying to get the PvP +Def IO.
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
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I've thought the same thing, and the regen bonuses are so small to even really make a difference anyway. Recharge is the way to go, but you can only get so much recharge and even then the power that would be nice to get perma is IH. Even with IH running I have been killed. Just running into a high enough mob, they can overcome your regen without any res or def to back it up.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I don't think the fix is making Regen stronger with SOs, it's making IO sets that do for Regen what IO sets do for Shields, SR, etc.
I don't understand why we get such high defense bonuses, but not equivalent boosts to Regen, HP, & resists. |
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The simple reason is because a vast majority of sets operate by having substantially better damage mitigation (re: def/res) than they have damage recovery (heal/regen). Because of this and how the two of them interact (re: damage mitigation decreases incoming damage and functionally multiplies the effectiveness of damage recovery), public mitigation bonuses need to be much higher than public damage recovery bonuses in order to keep everything in line.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I don't understand why we get such high defense bonuses, but not equivalent boosts to Regen, HP, & resists.
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As to the defense v. everything else disparity (especially def compared to resist), it's pretty much because, as the devs see it, defense is less valuable than resistance because it's less reliable. Just look at any softcap scrapper and even they will tell you that enemies have gotten lucky once or twice and gone straight through their defense and floored them. You'll never have that with resistance because it's a constant reduction.
Personally, I don't see much reason as to why +def IO bonuses have to be twice as high as their +res counterparts, especially considering that defense bonuses all contribute to both typed and positional defense and that, on average, defense is already twice as effective as any individual point of resistance. I can understand why +regen and +hp bonuses are so low (if they weren't, you'd have */SR Scrapper taking themselves up to */Regen level hp/sec to go with their softcapped defenses) but I'm not grokking why +res set bonuses so pitiful.
My suggestion for the devs would be to increase the +res set bonuses to be equal to the +def bonuses and add an extra type to each of the +res set bonuses. This would still allow the +def set bonuses to still be better to make up for the "luck disadvantage" and +res set bonuses would actually be good enough to actually consider for a build.
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However, that really doesn't explain why heal sets don't have capstone bonuses of say 40-50% regen. Or why the 20-40 and 30-50 melee damage rare sets (Touch of Death and Mako's Bite) both have defense as their capstone.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The simple reason is because a vast majority of sets operate by having substantially better damage mitigation (re: def/res) than they have damage recovery (heal/regen). Because of this and how the two of them interact (re: damage mitigation decreases incoming damage and functionally multiplies the effectiveness of damage recovery), public mitigation bonuses need to be much higher than public damage recovery bonuses in order to keep everything in line.
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| As to the defense v. everything else disparity (especially def compared to resist), it's pretty much because, as the devs see it, defense is less valuable than resistance because it's less reliable. Just look at any softcap scrapper and even they will tell you that enemies have gotten lucky once or twice and gone straight through their defense and floored them. You'll never have that with resistance because it's a constant reduction. |
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| Personally, I don't see much reason as to why +def IO bonuses have to be twice as high as their +res counterparts, especially considering that defense bonuses all contribute to both typed and positional defense and that, on average, defense is already twice as effective as any individual point of resistance. I can understand why +regen and +hp bonuses are so low (if they weren't, you'd have */SR Scrapper taking themselves up to */Regen level hp/sec to go with their softcapped defenses) but I'm not grokking why +res set bonuses so pitiful. |
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| My suggestion for the devs would be to increase the +res set bonuses to be equal to the +def bonuses and add an extra type to each of the +res set bonuses. This would still allow the +def set bonuses to still be better to make up for the "luck disadvantage" and +res set bonuses would actually be good enough to actually consider for a build. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Take Katana as a primary and your regeneration scrapper will do things most super reflexes scrappers would dream of doing. Like soloing 4 AVs at once...
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Dark/Shield Build Thread
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gonna have to try that on my claws/sr. Pretty sure its doable...
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Take Katana as a primary and your regeneration scrapper will do things most super reflexes scrappers would dream of doing. Like soloing 4 AVs at once...
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Regen is fine. If you want to consider what's available from IOs, Regen benefits most from recharge, recharge, recharge and defense. Those are already readily available from IOs. The main problem is that recharge is very expensive. So it's more a matter of price rather than of possible vs. impossible.
I do think that the low resistance levels available from IOs is kind of silly.
I would support minor Regen tweaks like recharge debuff and regen debuff resistance.
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He said MOST SRs, Iggy. |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
gonna have to try that on my claws/sr. Pretty sure its doable...
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egg zac ree
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Originally Posted by Werner
He said MOST SRs, Iggy.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I was working on a build for tanking STFs on my Dark/SS tanker, and specifically at that. Instead, I went with E/N defense bonuses, to reduce my chances of getting hit by any of GW's evil stuff, as well as shore up the Energy hole.|
Originally Posted by Werner
I do think that the low resistance levels available from IOs is kind of silly.
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I agree, though, Resist bonuses are low, and a lot rarer than defense bonuses (unless you're looking at Psi/Toxic, which I wasn't due to working on a DA).
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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I have a soft capped SR scrapper and a fully IOd regen with 171.25% recharge. The SR scrapper survives longer than the regen in most situations.
My regen could probably be tweaked for more +def also, or have a primary like BS or katana to make him more survivable, but I'm just pointing out what I am seeing playing them.
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Aliana ran a test some time in the past year proving that 25 AVs at once was possible, just very, very time consuming.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
gonna have to try that on my claws/sr. Pretty sure its doable...
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Originally Posted by jlappe
I know that regen has gotten hit with the nerf bat a good many times, but compairing to what you can do with sets now a days, was regen really that OP with IH as a toggle? My regen feels weak vs some of the other scrappers out there I team with. I know that powers aren't balanced around the IO system, but it is part of the game, so shouldn't it be taken into account when looking at powers? The recharge on IH is so long, I feel like it needs to be lowered a little.
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I often have this talk with the group of players I team with. 99% of the them are of the lolregen camp while I am of the feeling that regen when played well can be very impressive and fun.
Regen weak points:
no def, and limited resist.
Regen strengths:
A pretty nice mez toggle (so you can set something else to autofire, I'm thinking Hasten, I used to use dull pain on auto when I had it perma in pvp, but that was for a totally different reason then healing it was for the max HP so I could not get 2 shotted by an EM stalker).
Endurance out the ying yang. Along with WP one of the only two sets that get this nice bonus to +recovery. Nice for heavy end attacks, and this is synergistic with building a /regen for +recharge. One of the biggest issues with Purples is that they lack a 'end reduction' so you start firing off your powers faster and faster but they cost a boatload of end and you 'may' find yourself watching your blue bar shrink.
Two (so to speak) god modes, IH could be and almost should be the Regens t9. We get this in addition to MoG. Which when you really build up recharge is up pretty often. I think mine is up 20 secs of every 60ish secs. So if I were to put MoG on auto and keep hitting hasten I am pretty much like a SR or Soft Capped Invuln for 1/3 of the time. I still have my two heals and I have a full blue bar of end to work with.
Hmm, I think I may have rambled there for a bit, my appologies.
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I highly doubt you're getting MoG up to 33% uptime. In fact, I know it's impossible. Ignoring the substantial animation time, in order to do so, you would need to get the recharge time down to 45 seconds because the duration is only 15 seconds. Because the base recharge is 240 seconds, this means that you'd need to be packing 433% +rech, which is 33% over the recharge cap.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
Two (so to speak) god modes, IH could be and almost should be the Regens t9. We get this in addition to MoG. Which when you really build up recharge is up pretty often. I think mine is up 20 secs of every 60ish secs. So if I were to put MoG on auto and keep hitting hasten I am pretty much like a SR or Soft Capped Invuln for 1/3 of the time. I still have my two heals and I have a full blue bar of end to work with.
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A much more believable uptime percent is ~21%. 250% +rech (95% from slotting, 155% global +rech) would bring the recharge time down to 68.5 seconds. Add the 2.772 sec animation time and you'd get 15 seconds of uptime roughly every 71.5 seconds for an uptime percent of 21%.
The biggest reasons that */regen gets laughed at nowadays is that it's one of the few secondary powersets out now that actually requires skill to play well. It's not hard to gauge when to activate your one survivability oriented click power because everything else you've got is a toggle or passive. It's substantially more difficult to gauge when to use which of your 4 survivability oriented click powers, all of which are on different recharge timers and have substantially different effects with different effective delays. You can't just steal someone's IO'd build from the forums and be laughably unkillable like you can with many */SR, */SD, and */WP builds (which are currently considered the most awesome).
Of course, it also gets a lot of hate because it's the only defense power set that doesn't have any debuff resistance (/stares daggers at Castle and Arcanaville) and gets the least significant gains from IO slotting (re: it gets a lot, but not as much contributed survivability from IOs as mitigation based sets because recharge and regen diminish in effect the more you get whereas mitigation gets multiplicatively more effective).
Hmm, I always thought MoG had a duration of 20 secs.
http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/R...oment_of_Glory states its 20 secs. However, when I checked my regen in game it does indeed say 15 secs.
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Where power information is concerned, you're generally better off checking City of Data than you are Paragonwiki, seeing as it actually lists all of the effects of the powers along with their durations, animation times, and pretty much any other relevant non-derivative data point. Check Moment of Glory.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
Hmm, I always thought MoG had a duration of 20 secs.
http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/R...oment_of_Glory states its 20 secs. However, when I checked my regen in game it does indeed say 15 secs. |
I'll check Paragonwiki for a lot of stuff, but power information definitely goes to City of Data. Paragonwiki doesn't provide enough of it (and what it does provide is often unreliable or blatantly obvious).
Defense gives increasing returns up to 45%... regen gives diminishing returns. There's really no way to change that fact given the current game mechanics.
The only thing I can think of that might counter this effect is to add to every single regen set/bonus/power a component of +hp and then remove all +hp caps. If having +300% regen came on top of having (for example) +150% hitpoints, that'd allow regen powers and +regen IOs to give more comparable returns at superelevated levels. A better balance might be to add hp at a 3-1 ratio or 4-1 ratio. I'd have to sit down with a spreadsheet and some time to figure out what bonus would be compariable to going for softcaps of defense... but I think there's a balance point in there somewhere.
I think in conjunction with this, I'd turn Dull Pain into heal with +resist all of a significant amount.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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It's actually not diminishing returns. 30% +regen will provide 1.67 extra hp/sec to a character with 1338.6 hit points no matter if it's the only +regen you've got or if you've already got 700% +regen. Each portion of +regen adds the same amount. It's a linear addition. The "diminishing returns" only exist when you observe on a comparative basis. 30% +regen adds less comparative survivability at 600% +regen than it does as 0% +regen because the percent increase overall is greater. The increase is still the same, it just seems like a smaller improvement because you've already got so much of it.|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Defense gives increasing returns up to 45%... regen gives diminishing returns. There's really no way to change that fact given the current game mechanics.
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Mitigation increases linearly as well, but the comparative increases are exponential until the cap (wherein they plateau) because the linear increase is an increase in the percent reduction of an assumed constant value. The reduction in damage you experience at any specific increase in mitigation value is going to be the same. 10% +res reduces the damage of a 100 damage attack by 10 points whether you're already packing 65% +res or none at all. The comparative increase is larger the more you've got because you're reducing a continually smaller value in a linear manner, generating exponential comparative returns.
The only effects in game that actually have legitimate defined diminishing returns are recharge and endurance reduction because of the calculations for them. Because they're modifying the power characteristic by dividing it, the relationship is naturally diminishing: the first 100% +rech you get reduces the recharge more than the second 100% +rech you get. The first takes the recharge from full to half and the second takes it from half to one third. The improvement diminishes substantially.
And that concludes my first math rant of the day.
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If 30% +regen is worth 1.67 hp/sec at 1338.6 hp whether or not you have 0 +regen or 1000 +regen, and is thus defined as NOT having diminishing returns, then how does recharge reduction have diminishing returns when +regen is essentially a recharge reduction on your health tic timer?|
Originally Posted by Umbral
It's actually not diminishing returns. 30% +regen will provide 1.67 extra hp/sec to a character with 1338.6 hit points no matter if it's the only +regen you've got or if you've already got 700% +regen. Each portion of +regen adds the same amount. It's a linear addition. The "diminishing returns" only exist when you observe on a comparative basis. 30% +regen adds less comparative survivability at 600% +regen than it does as 0% +regen because the percent increase overall is greater. The increase is still the same, it just seems like a smaller improvement because you've already got so much of it.
... The only effects in game that actually have legitimate defined diminishing returns are recharge and endurance reduction because of the calculations for them. Because they're modifying the power characteristic by dividing it, the relationship is naturally diminishing: the first 100% +rech you get reduces the recharge more than the second 100% +rech you get. The first takes the recharge from full to half and the second takes it from half to one third. The improvement diminishes substantially. |
Let's say you have a click power that heals 40hp every 4 seconds for a time averaged value of 10hp/sec. +100% recharge would give you 40hp every 2 seconds for 20hp/sec and +200% recharge would give you 40 hp every 1.33 seconds for 30hp/sec. Each +100% recharge is worth 10 hp/sec in that scenario. *Damage will work out the same. The effect rechrdx has on a DPS chain, of course, is nebulous: need more information.
I'm just not sure how interesting that bolded part is in the quoted section. Each % of regen decreases the health tic interval by an ever decreasing amount, but that isn't the best way to look at it as you point out.
edit: * well, DPC will. Which isn't very informative usually. But you know what I meant :P
city of data lists reconstruction at 60 second recharge and 335 heal at level 50. This is a 5.58 hp / sec ratio
Assuming 95% enhancement in heal and recharge that is 653.25 every 30.76 seconds (+ animation time which i forgot to look up).
That is roughly 21 hp /sec. 21 - 5.6 = 15.4 gain
Add 100% more recharge 60 / 2.95 = 20.33 which is 32.13 hp /sec 32 - 21 = 11 gain
Add 100% more recharge 60 / 3.95 = 15.19 which is 43 hp /sec 43 - 32 = 11 gain
cap recharge 60/5 = 12 which is 54.43 hp / sec = 11 gain
Considering this lacks animation time, the effect looks consistent, however if you add animation time into the equation you will see the effect is actually diminishing returns.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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The reason I said it as I did was because of what end attribute you're generally looking at when enhancing said attributes.|
Originally Posted by Mandur12
I'm just not sure how interesting that bolded part is in the quoted section. Each % of regen decreases the health tic interval by an ever decreasing amount, but that isn't the best way to look at it as you point out.
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When enhancing your regeneration rate, you're not generally looking at the rate at which you receive each regeneration tick. You're generally looking at the end rate of hit points you recover every second.
When enhancing your recharge rate, you're almost always looking at the actual recharge time, not the increased contributive value of the power.
Of course, when doing this, you also have to take into consideration the power in question. When trying to get an attack down to a 1.848 second recharge so that you can use your fancy new attack string, it doesn't really matter that, even though you're calculating 50% more usage thanks to a faster recharge rate, you can use it more often. You're trying to get it down to a specific recharge time so that you can use the attack in the most efficient way possible. The time of the recharge is more important than the rate of use in this situation. This same logic applies when trying to get an effect permanent. The goal is a specific time. When figuring out how much healing you're getting from Reconstruction or Healing Flames, the contributive value model works much better because you're not aiming for a defined recharge value: no matter what value you've got, each percent makes the power more effective (in a roughly linear manner).
I know that regen has gotten hit with the nerf bat a good many times, but compairing to what you can do with sets now a days, was regen really that OP with IH as a toggle? My regen feels weak vs some of the other scrappers out there I team with. I know that powers aren't balanced around the IO system, but it is part of the game, so shouldn't it be taken into account when looking at powers? The recharge on IH is so long, I feel like it needs to be lowered a little.