It's been my experience that people mainly seek out /Empathy for Recovery Aura for the same reason that people like /Kinetics - unlimited blue bar is extremely powerful. Not having to be reined in by the blue bar makes the game more dynamic and fun.
If someone is specifically looking for a healer, it's probably a toss-up. If they're looking for a blue bar buffer, then Empathy has the upper hand.
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Originally Posted by Prez1
Now I know that this has been mulled over before. I just made a Ice/Pain and at the char. creation screen I realized something.
Most of the people that I've talked to think that Empathy is superior to PD. When Going Rouge comes out do you think that PD is going to become a gimped AT when stacked up against Empathy? |
I've not played Empathy (not a fan of being a Heal-bot or being a Hero) but I have a lvl 46 Sonic/Pain and lvl 50 Necro/Pain. My thoughts:
1. I am so glad MM got Pain and not Empathy. The AoE buff (World of Pain) is better than trying to buff one by one (believe me, I have a 46 Ninja/FF). I know Fortitude is good but I"ll take World of Pain for all my pets and my teammates! This can be an advantage because you only buff once and you are ready to roll, which fits Corruptor/MM offensively.
2. Fortitude is probably the best single buff in the game due to that massive Defense All but on villain side, we already have SoA providing near god-mode defense (with just two of them). Do we really need more defense? I am so glad Pain brings +resistance which we seriously lack unless we want to put shields one by one with thermal or sonic resonance (when is the last time you saw a S.R? lol)
3. Pain is a lot more offensive than Empathy IMO. The AoE Recovery/Regen are nice but those have long recharge. Pain has a little gem in Anti-Mez power that provides +5% recharge and you can stack up to 5 times. It is annoying to keep stacking since it takes like 3s to finish the whole buff. Painbringer also has the highest single +Damage in the game at 50%!!! That is a massive damage buff if you put it on an AT with high damage modifier (no Brute, IT'S NOT YOU!).
4. I think Pain fits Villain's theme.. like Group VS Single. The AoE buffs fit our powersets better (hello, we have Patron Pets too?!). The single awesome buff like Fortitude fits Heroes more. In fact, I think Pain Domination will be the most popular Hero set once Gone Rogue comes out. I think people are pretty much tired of Empathy and those who want to heal and buff will try Pain.
I am curious to see Defender's value on Pain Domination. That is gonna be SICK. Two World of Pain from Defender?
I think Pain Domination is a good set in regular mission but it is probably one of the worst sets VS AVs/Heroes. It lacks good debuffs and you are at the risk of getting into "Healing Lock", which means you do mostly nothing but trying to heal (since you don't provide Defense to avoid getting hit in the first place). Oh, did i tell you I really like it when somebody dies and I rez him? I got like huge +endurance recovery after rezzing the person! lol
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Just for ***** and giggles, let's compare Empathy and Pain Dom on a power-by-power basis.
Tier 1: Healing Aura, Nullify Pain. No differences here. Same stats, differentiated only by AT modifiers (Defenders > Controllers/Corruptors > MMs). Advantage neither.
Tier 2: Heal Other, Soothe. Again, no differences here. Advantage neither.
Tier 3: Absorb Pain, Share Pain. Powers are identical except Share Pain gives the caster a damage buff (and if you're an MM, the damage taken by the power is split among your pets and Suppress Pain will allow you to regen the damage taken). Advantage Pain Dom.
Tier 4: Resurrect, Conduit of Pain. Resurrect is your plain-vanilla rez, Conduit of Pain is like Mutation, but the buff (and delayed debuff) are applied to the caster, not the recipient. CoP is somewhat more useful for a Corruptor than an MM since the MM usually has few or no attacks to benefit. Advantage Pain Dom.
Tier 5: Clear Mind, Enforced Morale. Powers are the same, except Enforced Morale causes slight damage to anyone you cast it on, and it grants a bit of +speed and +recharge (but only if the recipient doesn't already have significant amounts of either). Given that the +spd and +rech in EM are minimal if they do apply... advantage neither.
Tier 6: Fortitude, Soothing Aura/Suppress Pain. Soothing Aura's kind of a joke because the heal number is so small even when enhanced. Suppress Pain is nice, but it's no Regen Aura (the low end cost is great though). Compare those two powers to Fortitude, which is an appreciable tohit, defense, and damage buff which can be kept on up to four teammates at once. Fortitude wins this one by a long shot, advantage Empathy.
Tier 7: Recovery Aura, World of Pain. Both powers have their uses but RA is more generally sought-after because it essentially means you never have to worry about endurance (unless you nuke). Masterminds get better mileage out of WoP than Corruptors, but the numbers aren't spectacular even enhanced. Advantage Empathy.
Tier 8: Regeneration Aura, Anguishing Cry. AC fits the theme of Pain Dom, but in practice the power's just not that wonderful. It's a long-recharge PBAoE debuff, which when compared to the debuffs Rad, Dark, Cold, or Storm bring is pretty weak. Meanwhile, Regen Aura is busy turning that Blaster into a ranged Regen Scrapper. You could compare Regen Aura to Soothing Aura/Suppress Pain, but RA still wins that fight handily (you don't need to stay near the Emp after they've casted RA since the buff is a click not a PBAoE toggle). Advantage Empathy.
Tier 9: Adrenalin Boost, Painbringer. Both powers have the same base stats in terms of regen and recovery and both are very useful for those purposes. Painbringer has a 50% damage bonus (less on an MM) which is nice but nothing that can't be made up with a few small reds. Adrenalin Boost grants a 100% recharge speed buff, as well as good slow resistance. Advantage Empathy, hands-down.
In short, both sets are good at what they do. The reason people like Empathy (and the reason people were begging for something like it redside) is not because of the heals, but because of Fortitude, the RAs, and Adrenalin Boost. The reason people like Pain Dom is because of World of Pain and Painbringer. Independent of each other they're good sets but in a direct comparison, Empathy easily wins. When redside Hami raiders heard villains were finally getting an answer to Empathy, they were happy because it finally meant they'd get the RAs and AB. They got neither (though Painbringer helps the main Hami Brute, or if there are enough Pains, the yellow aggro/damage Brutes as well) - Pain Dom was advertised as the villain answer to Empathy, but it really isn't. The lack of RAs mean redside Hami raids are still somewhat reliant on the only other source of AoE regen in the game - Warburg bio nukes.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Do both Clear Mind and Enforced Morale give +perception? I think Enforced gives +perception but I am not 100% sure.
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At lower levels, yeah, +recovery is always nice but at high lvls, World of Pain's team resistance buff to everything and some +damage buff (16%) and some tohit buff is a lot more superior IMO. I wouldn't say Recovery Aura wins for sure as it also has like 500s recharge attached to it?| Tier 7: Recovery Aura, World of Pain. Both powers have their uses but RA is more generally sought-after because it essentially means you never have to worry about endurance (unless you nuke). Masterminds get better mileage out of WoP than Corruptors, but the numbers aren't spectacular even enhanced. Advantage Empathy. |
And also, Adrenaline Boost VS Painbringer, nothing can't be made up with a few reds? Well, isn't that the same with set bonuses too? At some point +recharge is overlapping with the +recharge or speed boost you have and you are still limited to activation time. The +50% damage is a straight up buff (of course you can also bring up FS but that's another topic). And damn, Defender version would give 62.5% damage buff!
I do agree Anguishing Cry is kinda meh but I think AC needs to be grouped with World of Pain's 16% damage buff. That's 16% damage + 20% resistance debuff. When I use WoP + Cry, it is a pretty impressive damage output overall. Anguishing Cry is kinda weird being PBaoe.
Oh and I wish Soothing Aura's radius could be a bit larger.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Empathy > Pain Dom.
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This is very thoughtful.
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Originally Posted by Dread_Shinobi
Empathy > Pain Dom.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Empathy always seemed like a 1-trick pony to me. "RA's up" then proceed to heal stuff. I dunno, im being really shallow but there are enough differenced between the two to make me wonder whihc i would want on a team.
1 is a pure heal and buff set, the other a a combination between heal, buff and debuff in different catagories. If defender could get pain domination (it'll never happen), Then i think I'd have to make a pain/-- Offender simply due to the fact it's more solo friendly and has +damage components geared towards the caster as a reward for healing his friends.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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I actually didn't know Share Pain gives you -100% healing for 15s. I think 15s is wayyyyyy too long. It should be shorten down to 6-8s. |
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Empathy always seemed like a 1-trick pony to me. "RA's up" then proceed to heal stuff. I dunno, im being really shallow but there are enough differenced between the two to make me wonder whihc i would want on a team.
1 is a pure heal and buff set, the other a a combination between heal, buff and debuff in different catagories. If defender could get pain domination (it'll never happen), Then i think I'd have to make a pain/-- Offender simply due to the fact it's more solo friendly and has +damage components geared towards the caster as a reward for healing his friends. |
I used to duo with a dual blade Brute and I would just target through him and I would use Share Pain to buff my damage even higher (I am Sonic/Pain). Sonic/Pain seems like a NATURAL combo for me as Pain lacks control powers and Sonic has plenty (aoe knockbac, aoe sleep, single stun) and the +damage fits well with -resist.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Pain Domination has everything I hate about Empathy and nothing from Empathy that I like.
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For example? |
Originally Posted by Smurphy
Pain Domination has everything I hate about Empathy and nothing from Empathy that I like.
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You love Fortitude so Pain has none.
You hate healing but Pain has healing.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
... and healing, and healing... and more healing.
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Pain > Empathy for soloists. Teams that need healers suck.
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Originally Posted by Prez1
Now I know that this has been mulled over before. I just made a Ice/Pain and at the char. creation screen I realized something.
Most of the people that I've talked to think that Empathy is superior to PD. When Going Rouge comes out do you think that PD is going to become a gimped AT when stacked up against Empathy? |
Be well, people of CoH.
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I've got two great Red-side healers. My Regen Stalker is useful... as is my Will Bru... wait, he's DB, never mind. ^_^
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Pain > Empathy for soloists. Teams that need healers suck.
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I am the 99%. Occupy the World.
Minister of Infinity's Secret Police, Official Mooch of dUmb and League, Official Purveyor of Free Straws, the Most Interesting Man in the World.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Right, those teams want an Empathy Defender/Controller, not a healer. Of course if you're soloing you'll want a powerset that's more solo-friendly (which is why you don't see a lot of Sonic Resonance characters especially redside, almost none of the set helps a soloist), but given a team I'd take an Emp over a Pain almost any day.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Teams that need healers suck.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Heal numbers from Soothing Aura are not that big? I prefer my 98 point heal every few seconds, coupled with Nullify Pain, the difference is large.
Its a preference, Empathy is hero side, where ATs are mostly dependant on teaming. Pain dom is solo friendly for villains which are more solo oriented. Sides fit and some will take pain over empathy and likewise.
I prefer Pain, hands down, the sets awesum.
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Yes, teams that need healers do suck, thats why I invite Empathy /buffers/ to my team. And I invite said Empathy Buffers over Pain Buffers because Empathy Buffers have better buffs than Pain Buffers.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Pain > Empathy for soloists. Teams that need healers suck.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
This is very thoughtful.
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I have a sneaking suspicion that Going Rogue will cause us to respec before swapping sides. Those with Pain Domination may find themselves with Empathy. Those with Empathy will suddenly have PD. (Also Poison will probably be replaced with something "non-villainous" for those swapping from villainy)
No, I don't believe this with certainy. Just as the devs have said some sets just don't belong on heroside (Posion) or villainside (Empathy), they have also said that powerset respec isn't something they will do.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
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You're talking about some powersets not being allowed to switch sides? I'd bet money that won't happen. The fundamental idea is that you have a change of heart about your path in life, and you're going to take whatever powers you have but live differently. Not that you somehow magically get reinvented as an entirely different character.
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Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
I have a sneaking suspicion that Going Rogue will cause us to respec before swapping sides.
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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I thought Gone Rouge just allows you to switch side but not switch Powersets? You can have /Poison MM in CoH but not a Poison/ Defender? |
Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
I have a sneaking suspicion that Going Rogue will cause us to respec before swapping sides. Those with Pain Domination may find themselves with Empathy. Those with Empathy will suddenly have PD. (Also Poison will probably be replaced with something "non-villainous" for those swapping from villainy)
No, I don't believe this with certainy. Just as the devs have said some sets just don't belong on heroside (Posion) or villainside (Empathy), they have also said that powerset respec isn't something they will do. |
I don't think you can switch "powersets". That is just not going to happen. You can always re-make the toon though.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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To each of his own I guess. Pain has good aoe buff too that fit well with MM's pets. I think Pain > Empathy on Mastermind so it is not completely "true" that Empathy > Pain as Corruptor is not the only AT with Pain Domination. |
Originally Posted by Dread_Shinobi
Yes, teams that need healers do suck, thats why I invite Empathy /buffers/ to my team. And I invite said Empathy Buffers over Pain Buffers because Empathy Buffers have better buffs than Pain Buffers.
Yes, I agree, it's true too. |
And like I've explained before, most SoA already provides near god-mode defense, so World of Pain's AoE Resistance buff is even more precious for the team.
However, one can argue that Pain Domination's design gears more towards Mastermind than Corruptor. I like the idea of Share Pain but 15s -100% healing is way too long IMO.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I'm going to revise my statement from "I'd bet money this won't happen" to "I'm 100% positive this won't happen." If you read Posi's latest interview, he talks about two new signature characters being introduced with Going Rogue. One is Desdemona, a demon-summoning mastermind. You pretty much don't get more inherently evil than being able to summon demons. |
Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
I have a sneaking suspicion that Going Rogue will cause us to respec before swapping sides.
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She's the one switching sides to become a hero. No respec needed to trade in her demons for nice neutral robots or whatever.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
If Infernal has taught us anything, it's that demon-summoning is a perfectly respectable hero past-time.
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I have never liked Empathy solo. I love Pain Dom solo. I have not liked Empathy for teams (both as the one using, as well as the one it being used on) in almost 2 years now. I love Pain Dom in teams no matter who Is using it. Its all a play style pref.
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Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
Heal numbers from Soothing Aura are not that big? I prefer my 98 point heal every few seconds, coupled with Nullify Pain, the difference is large.
Its a preference, Empathy is hero side, where ATs are mostly dependant on teaming. Pain dom is solo friendly for villains which are more solo oriented. Sides fit and some will take pain over empathy and likewise. I prefer Pain, hands down, the sets awesum. |
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I have a level 50 Empathy/Psy defender and level ~18 Dark/Pain corruptor, so I can't do direct comparisons. I can say that it took me years to get to 50 with my Empath, while leveling several other defenders in the interim.|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Empathy always seemed like a 1-trick pony to me. "RA's up" then proceed to heal stuff. I dunno, im being really shallow but there are enough differenced between the two to make me wonder whihc i would want on a team.
1 is a pure heal and buff set, the other a a combination between heal, buff and debuff in different catagories. If defender could get pain domination (it'll never happen), Then i think I'd have to make a pain/-- Offender simply due to the fact it's more solo friendly and has +damage components geared towards the caster as a reward for healing his friends. |
To me it doesn't even occur to ask "do I want empathy or pain domination on my team?" It almost never matters who's actually on the team unless you're going up against an AV that needs particular effects to defeat it (usually -regen or -dmg res). Having a brute/tank can make things go faster by letting the team charge headlong into mobs, but you can work with almost any team composition for regular missions.
But that does reflect on the OP's question. It seems that the -dmg res aspect of Anguishing Cry makes Pain Domination more generally useful. In addition, when you're playing with a team of well-designed characters above level 30 Recovery Aura is pretty much a wasted power choice. All the Pain Dom powers seem useful in any situation (except Share Pain, but then Absorb Pain is even more useless).
Now I know that this has been mulled over before. I just made a Ice/Pain and at the char. creation screen I realized something.
Most of the people that I've talked to think that Empathy is superior to PD. When Going Rouge comes out do you think that PD is going to become a gimped AT when stacked up against Empathy?