Quote:
Errr, wouldn't that then be a wrong way to teach it? |
Originally Posted by Suichiro
Every art teacher is different. Because there's no right or wrong way to do art, there's also no right or wrong way to teach it. Sadly, it seems like most teachers want to stifle creativity and crush people into their way of doing things, regardless of how valid the technique they hate may be.
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IMO, it would be one thing for a teacher to say "I don't like smudging. I think there are much better techniques. I'm going to teach you those techniques. Thus, in my class, you will use those techniques only." and quite another to just flat out condemn a technique.
I remember one project in an art class... The assignment was on shading and the guidelines were very basic: Do a picture with a lot of shading.
I have no idea why but I decided to be an oddball and experiment with pointilism... We hadn't used it in class at all and I had never used it at all for my own stuff. I think I had just seen a picture somewhere and liked it. I did a picture of a partially unwrapped (and bitten into) Heath Bar (I think it was a Heath Bar...) and it came out amazing. Probably one of the best all around pieces I ever did and I was pretty decent at one time...
With the different shades from the very dark wrapper, the subtly different darkness of the wrapper, the different shades to show the different layers and textures of the bitten into candy bar, the words and such on the wrapper, as well as the background... I was working on that damn project morning noon and night. Pointilism is not a quick process....
Anyway, long story short, everyone loved it... Everyone was simply amazed at the detail I was able to pull off with my millions of tiny freaking dots of ink... Everyone but the teacher.
Actually, the teacher had quite good things to say about it. He also said he didn't consider that shading. Thus, he said, I had no project to turn in... I do believe that was my one and only F ever in High School...
Man, wish I still had that piece. Actually, I can think of about a dozen things I had done back then that I wish I still had so I could show them off... A few I'd probably actually have up on my walls... Alas, I was young and careless and having moved almost a dozen times since I started high school it seems I lost everything worth saving somewhere along the line. *sigh*
Anyway, back to your normally scheduled thread. [/highjack]
No, depending upon what that teacher wants you to learn and what their job is, it's quite possible for them to be very stiff and unforgiving in what they do and still be a good teacher. The opinions and validity of their methods really vary from person to person, so it's basically impossible to say one way or another.
If they took someone with natural talent in one field, completely ignored it and made them do something else, it's possible for them to still have done a good job of teaching them a particular skill. The difference is between where the division line between being a good mentor in supporting the student and being a good teacher and supporting the skill set. Everyone's view on where that line should be is different.
I'm all for letting artists do what they want so long as a good foundation of skill is taught, but not everyone feels that way.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
Huh? So stifling creativity and crushing people is not the wrong way to teach?
Perhaps one or both of us is misreading the intent behind the others words but if the above is what you meant then we must disagree on that point. I'm all for forcing people to go outside their comfort zones, even forcing them to try (or even get proficient) in new techniques and styles... But I believe those things can be done without stifling and crushing.
I was lucky in that I had exceptional art teachers (it was just family and friends that *epic failed*
at supporting my artz 
) but I did have some insanely strict teachers in other fields so I can relate.
I actually can see merit to both sides of this.
Speaking from only my point of view I would say in Caemgen's case it sounds like a problem of definition.
I feel a "good" teacher (of any subject) clearly and accurately defines what they expect of students
- i.e. your next assignment will be a project involving lots of shading... shading is NOT is not pointillism,
it is NOT crosshatching etc etc it IS this... and so on. Then if you turned in your piece he would be
justified in docking you as while your piece may have been good it was not what he had asked for.
If he did not clearly tell what was and what was not allowed then I would've (were I in your shoes)
fought him on it and got the grade reversed as pointillism can indeed produce various levels of
shade and so can be called a shading technique.
Were I in Larissa's place (well minus the ice bikini ) I would've pulled him aside after class and asked him
for his side of it and why he was so against it... if his answer satisfied me that there was good reason
for his position I would (perhaps grudgingly) go along with it... if it didn't satisfy me and I thought he
was just being a jerk for no reason I would turn in one piece done his way to prove I could correctly
render what he asked for... and then every other piece I would've used smudging lol.
I openly challenged many of my teachers and changed several of their minds and likewise had my mind
changed many times too (as it should be when learning)... plus I was all like rebellious and stuffz back then. 
Sidenote: Being a hard case about teaching tends to work better, I think, with strictly defined
subjects like math where 2+2 is always (until you get to the extreme levels of applied math anyway)
going to equal 4 so it's ok to be be stubborn and deduct from anyone who comes up with an answer
of 5 or even someone who takes a shortcut... even when they arrive at the correct answer of 4.
I had a teacher like this that I did NOT agree with at the time (mainly because I didn't enjoy math
and wanted the quickest right answer possible) but once he convinced me of the wisdom in his approach
though, he wanted me to learn to do it the long way first to have a solid foundation and understand
the original process before jumping to the shortcuts, then I was ok with his method.
To that point there should be more math teachers like him as too many people nowadays can't do
long math and have forgotten what few quickie "shortcuts" they knew so they just rely on a calculator...
take away their calculator and they are at a total loss as to how they should solve a given problem.
So while I see merit to both sides, when it comes to art, yes a solid foundation is key but a variety
and range of techniques should be allowed... because I think, whatever the particular skill you are
trying to teach may be, ultimately the goal is to encourage creativity and not stifle it.
Ok, while I do appreciate the open discussion and expression of ideas in my thread (so thank you
all for speaking up and keep it coming 
) and even debate (as long as it doesn't get too carried away 
), it's time for
more art and on the salient note of finger smudging I was asked at what point I did the pencils,
before or after ink? So in an attempt to show that here is a shot of the 3rd face with just a few ink
indicator lines and the shading down... it's pretty early in the process for me in this case.
F.Y.I. The left eye and ear detailing were done after the pencils...
Interesting... I definitely would have thought the subtle shadings came further on in the process.
Looking good so far, as always... I do have a quetion though: Are you changing her earings? Hard to tell from the picture in the picture but it looks like she's wearing a more round (pearl?) earing in the (communion?) white dress pic but the art seems to have a circular band more similiar to what she has in the other art...
Doesn't matter for anything and I could just not have good enough eyes to see the earing in the pictures, but I was curious...
Maybe they do and I'm doing things backwards lol. I don't really follow any kind of
pattern or rules when I create I just do things in the order that they occur to me
(although more recently I find myself planning out sketches like with the Hot Pencil thread
and such).
Np buddy, portraits are all about the little details.
The earrings are indeed different but they are all rings, gold earrings in the left (though they are
hidden from view) and center poses and silver for the right side (I believe that is her
confirmation dress and not communion but then I tend to get the
fu-fu superstitious rituals mixed up sometimes lol) pose.
The silver one appears to be a wider band though... here is a closeup for ya.
And here is an update (including the earring work) to the third face.
All very, very impressive.
And I could never, ever work in pen on something that great. I would get to some point, realize I was doing great work, and be terified of screwing it up. That just makes your work all the more impressive.
Confirmation... Communion... Whatever I knew it was for some religious rite I don't recall what approximate ages which occurs at never having made it through any of them... Obviously I'm damned due to that so I figure I may as well live it up, eh?
Quote:
There is a VERY good reason to not use smudging/blending stumps/whatever. Its particularly important to stay away from such things if your art is intended for reproduction. Scanning/photographic equipment has a heck of a time with subtle variations (even high-end stuff) and you'll often get more of a mush. But if you slowly build value in layers of cross-hatching, there's enough information there for lenses to work with and you'll get markedly better reproduction.|
Originally Posted by Larissa_Rasputin
Beautiful portrait
A note on smudging, I had an art teacher in my drawing class say that only an artist who doesn't know how to shade would smudge. He actually deducted points off of my artwork as well as anyone else who dared use it. It was a weekly argument the class would have with him. |
This isn't something that has to be kept in mind for every piece, but because I'm going for an Illustration degree, I try to not smudge my pencils even in my non-core courses. Its a good practice for me to get in since I want to do art intended for reproduction in most cases in my career.
Your teacher could have just been being an ***-hat, I don't know, but there are some really good reasons behind teaching shading that doesn't involve smudging with your finger or using a blending stump =)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Suichiro
Every art teacher is different. Because there's no right or wrong way to do art, there's also no right or wrong way to teach it. Sadly, it seems like most teachers want to stifle creativity and crush people into their way of doing things, regardless of how valid the technique they hate may be.
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Sorry to be late to this discussion. As a former art teacher. Respectfully I disagree with the above point about there being no wrong way of teaching it. I believe there are several wrong ways. One of the most obvious and still practiced today is what I like to call "The Cookie Cutter Method".
Where no student is different, the lesson is so incredibly simplified a monkey could do it, and the result is equally boring. To see an example look at all the outline drawings of hands turned into construction paper cutouts glued on to paper plates in grade school class rooms.
These kids aren't bothered to be taught the differences in their fingers, the differences in their hands. Nope, all hands are alike in their world, and why bother teaching them art, when they can "craft" it. Man I hate scrapbookers. They're like kids again, only using expensive acid to create...
Anyway, I digress. Perhaps your teacher Larissa didn't want you to use smudging as a crutch, while you first learn the hard way. I'm sure they would have given in years later, when they might have been convinced you knew the difference of when to use it, and when not to use it.
In the case of CR's work, it is "his" method. And he's probably done it so much, he knows just how much to apply, when to apply it and when not to. It's one of the many things in his art repertoire. I personally like the depth of his ink work, knowing what to make dark and what not to... it's a skill not many people work on.
Some teachers do have very specific methods. There ARE techniques which can't be ignored, and some that shouldn't be attempted till the student has a grasp of the basics. Smudging is one of those things that can make you get carried away, and yet they make special tools to do them, those little cones of rolled up compressed paper into a perfect point. Other teachers will show you to do it with common tissue paper.
There are plenty of methods to achieve almost the exact same look, but some of them are aesthetically more pleasing to others than some. I love real ink work, even a great digital piece printed on exceptional paper, can't compare to that inky sheen on bristol, or that slightly raised surface of black on white. It's a visceral thing no?
As for the right way to teach art, yes I agree there is no right way.
For years many people thought Anime drawings were the end of realism, but you can't draw Anime without some knowledge of reality. In fact the more reality you put into anime the better it gets, well imho. But it is one of those short cut methods that teachers frown upon, because they feel the student is cheating themselves of the nuances of learning. Anime is probably a bad example as to some it is high art and to others not so much. But I've always thought it had promise coupled with real life drawing experience.
I wonder what your teacher would have thought of Air Brushing, which is all about the smudging in my brain. Digital art to me is at least 10% smudging, but then a lot of traditional artists, teachers, I have had, have hated digital art for it's short cuts. They just don't get the nuance of it.
I say Smudge away, and damn the torpedoes! Ummm well you know what I mean... right?
EDIT: duh blending stumps, my brain must have dumped that in the last sleep session. Would you agree though Wassy that not all art is intended for mass reproduction or photographic archiving. So if that is the case, smudging will fit the purpose of that particular piece? I agree that it should be done in moderation, and after you learn to do shading the more difficult way.
Anime and cartooning is probably one of the worst ways to start drawing. With a form that has so few lines, if you manage to screw up even a single one, it looks terrible. So much insight and experience is needed to make the style look great, much of that coming from RL knowledge of anatomy and form. In art, generally less (lines) is more (work.)
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
Ok it's been a while since I posted up something here and unfortunately this has been sitting on the back
burner for the last several weeks (been distracted with the posting stuff in "The Hot Pencil" thread
and working on the CannonBrawl Run's grand prize to be awarded to Starwind)
but now I finally made the time to complete it.
As a way to say thank you to Psygon for all the wonderful "City of Cutes" she has done for so many
people (including me) for free (she was long overdue for some nice gift artz in return)
I present her namesake hero Psygon. Enjoy, you've definitely earned it.
Great art and a very nice gift for someone who has done a lot and asked for nothing!
Gratz Psygon!! What a beautiful piece from our orange tang dude. Tehe...Nicely done, as always, CR!! 
~*~VexXxa~*~
The City Scoop Art Correspondent/Writer "ART IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER"//"Don't hate because VexXxa is HOT and you're NOT." - JOHNNYKAT
Beautiful piece CR! That's a great gift man! Nicely done!
[url=http://starwindgraphics.deviantart.com/]My deviantArt page[/url]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/AceFrankly/Starwind-Name-Signature1.gif[/IMG]
Proud member of The Impossibles/Pinnacle -[url="http://www.theimpossibles.org"]www.theimpossibles.org[/url]
Thankyou all Psygon I think really deserved something nice and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong Psygon)
this may even be her first piece of hero artz. With that in mind it's going to get even better.
Even though I may be done drawing it I'm not completely done with it yet...
I have another bit of a surprise... a surprise of the Swany kind...
Quote:
omg :O|
Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
Ok it's been a while since I posted up something here and unfortunately this has been sitting on the back burner for the last several weeks (been distracted with the posting stuff in "The Hot Pencil" thread and working on the CannonBrawl Run's grand prize to be awarded to Starwind) but now I finally made the time to complete it. As a way to say thank you to Psygon for all the wonderful "City of Cutes" she has done for so many people (including me) for free (she was long overdue for some nice gift artz in return) I present her namesake hero Psygon. Enjoy, you've definitely earned it. |
Have been so busy lately have kept away from the forums but when I saw the email about a private message this morning I just had to come and look... that is amazing - I love it
Is sooooo very cool!!
Glad you are lovin it Psygon.
But oh yeah it's going to be even more awesome soon.
Not done yet but here is a little sneak peak of what I talked over with Eddy that I wanted to have done.
THAT is gonna look sooo kewl! Can't wait to see it!
[url=http://starwindgraphics.deviantart.com/]My deviantArt page[/url]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/AceFrankly/Starwind-Name-Signature1.gif[/IMG]
Proud member of The Impossibles/Pinnacle -[url="http://www.theimpossibles.org"]www.theimpossibles.org[/url]
Quote:
oooooooh squee! pink hair! |
Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
Glad you are lovin it Psygon.
But oh yeah it's going to be even more awesome soon. Not done yet but here is a little sneak peak of what I talked over with Eddy that I wanted to have done. |
Oh and I should point out that coloring on the hair is Eddy's work not mine (credit where credit is due)
even though I'm posting it in my thread... I just tweaked the color a bit (more pinkish-purple) and sent
it back to him with a "heck yeah that works for me" note which is how I happened to have that bit of coloring.
Nice work as always Eddy.
P.S. suppose I should post up the reference I was given here while I'm at it.
I had a good portion of the face and hair drawn/decided before I got this reference (wanted to surprise her)
so in the drawing she looks younger and has the "feisty" twin tails hairstyle because that's closer to her avatar
which is what I was going on up until this point. Oh and since she is an Empath I went with the "Clear Mind" power
for her pose because I like the look of it and cuz it casts a purple effect which goes with the theme.
Sneak Peek #2
A few things to note, I already mentioned to Eddy that the gray is not a full mask but a stripe and there
should be some skin showing at the hairline like in the pencil sketch, he mentioned that he will fix up
the nostrils as well (he's so easy to work with ), the eyes I told him to go ahead and color and
see how they look as in the sketch I left the irises blank he went with blue but they could just as
easily be made pink/purple or left blank. If you have a preference one way or the other Psygon now
would be the time to mention it.
So what do ya all think so far?
omg :O
That looks so like the Psygon in my head now that it's being coloured it's quite scary
Am totally loving it
Every art teacher is different. Because there's no right or wrong way to do art, there's also no right or wrong way to teach it. Sadly, it seems like most teachers want to stifle creativity and crush people into their way of doing things, regardless of how valid the technique they hate may be.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN