Architect Entertainment, Boss Farms, and the "Treadmill"
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2009-08-27 09:07 in Suggestions and Ideas
Translation: Doom, bring back bridging and power-leveling?
What are you saying here?
Um, changing the colours of my powers etc is old news the minute it hits live. Sure it's cool especially since they said it wouldn't be done since the whole engine needed to be recoded. The only good thing about it is, just that, the engine IS being recoded, albeit slowly and we will benifit from that eventually. Hopefully we'll see some shine already in GR.
I'm not sure what you're really suggesting here, apart from the usual, totally ignored "more (end) content, now - and a lot of it"? (And Yes, of course I TOTALLY agree with it.)
..then again, those points are worth repeating at intervals so the devs understand we won't give up, we'll keep nagging them for more serious (story/mission/arc/tf/trial/raid) content. I'd personally be very happy if we got some real, professional level designers to the team. Those repetitive stupidly designed "office" maps are a sad joke. Don't they have offices in the US? Or are they actually of similar insane design?
You contradict yourself a decent amount here.
First off, The Dev team isn't changing negatively anything that has been in the game "a long time." The AE system has been out for only two issues, and has been constantly tweaked since its release.
Bridging was an unfortunate side effect of the SK system. The Devs just made it easier to team with a wide variety of charcter levels, making it much easier for everyone to find teams without the need for SKs at all. How does that not help you?
The AE also created a system where people could create more content than the Devs could pump out. This includes creative content, new stories, and the ability to (gasp!) get to 50 20 times over without ever doing the same mission twice. What did the players use it for? Anything but that, for the most part. They took the easy way out. The Devs gave you EXACTLY what you're asking for here, and people didn't use it. Some did, of course, and I don't want to lump everyone together here, but a large portion of the people I've seen recently in the AE have been there only to farm and PL.
Why weren't they doing the creative content? Why weren't they doing new and different missions, with new stories? Why were they taking the easy way out, instead, if they were looking for new content?
If there was no new content, what difference does it make if you're at level 50 or level 5? If you say that there's no content, then what good does PLing get you?
Increasing the level cap does NOTHING but delay the problem. If you increased the level cap to 60 tomorrow, the day after that you'd have the first people getting to level 60, and saying that they're bored again. The AE, again, gave these players the ability to challenge themselves in new ways, and to run through brand-new content. Instead, we just have them PLing themselves, and then still complaining that there's nothing else to do.
It's like me driving to work every day, and then complaining that I never see anything different on the highway, and asking for the highway department to move the highway so that I can see new things. When, instead, I could take new routes if I'm that bored with the scenery, which would be a lot easier for everyone.
Just because people will actively do things against there best interest doesn't mean that the Devs need to cater to those people.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I don't believe I am contradicting myself. Allow me to explain:
Bridging was an unintended side effect of the SK/LK system. People used it to run Nemesis farms and level people rather quickly. They left it this way a LONG time. So long, in fact, that it has gotten its own term. Changing the system now, WILL cause attrition. There's no avoiding it. There are people who play that like leveling fast. There are quite a few who want to at least get to 20 so they can get stamina and not have to rest between battles. They want a fast-paced game, not a sit-in.
Boss Farms: Here's an interesting situation. On average, bosses are the most experience rich mobs in the game for their difficulty. If your primary reason for playing is leveling, then why fight a Family minion with a long range machine gun attack and a weak melee attack, when you can fight a Praetorian Slammer that has only a short range shotgun attack and an easily avoidable but devastating melee attack? You create a situation where players can create their own content and are surprised when the missions that grant the most experience are the ones that are played the most? Why? You're missing the point, and doing it all wrong.
Oh, and, if you really wish to fix the "boss farm problem" make custom critter groups REQUIRE at least one minion, one Lieutenant, and one Boss type. PROBLEM FIXED. And you didn't even have to tweak the experience tables!
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Pretty much being done:|
Originally Posted by Joe_Blow
Oh, and, if you really wish to fix the "boss farm problem" make custom critter groups REQUIRE at least one minion, one Lieutenant, and one Boss type. PROBLEM FIXED. And you didn't even have to tweak the experience tables!
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Originally Posted by i16 patch notes
Custom Villain Groups
If a player has all three basic critter types in their CVG, they will receive full rewards for the mission. If one critter type is missing they will receive 50% rewards. If two critter types are missing they will receive 25% rewards, and if none of the core critter types are in the CVG, there are no rewards. This only effects mobs that are auto-spawned by the mission. You can still place unique bosses inside of a unique group under "Fight a Boss" and have them reward full experience. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Maybe some people will. But for me, I'm going to be so glad that it will be easier to make teams without needing to worry about who needs an sk or who isn't getting xp because they are exemped.
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Originally Posted by Joe_Blow
Bridging was an unintended side effect of the SK/LK system. People used it to run Nemesis farms and level people rather quickly. They left it this way a LONG time. So long, in fact, that it has gotten its own term. Changing the system now, WILL cause attrition. There's no avoiding it. There are people who play that like leveling fast. There are quite a few who want to at least get to 20 so they can get stamina and not have to rest between battles. They want a fast-paced game, not a sit-in.
[ |
However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
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Originally Posted by Joe_Blow
I don't believe I am contradicting myself. Allow me to explain:
Bridging was an unintended side effect of the SK/LK system. People used it to run Nemesis farms and level people rather quickly. They left it this way a LONG time. So long, in fact, that it has gotten its own term. Changing the system now, WILL cause attrition. There's no avoiding it. There are people who play that like leveling fast. There are quite a few who want to at least get to 20 so they can get stamina and not have to rest between battles. They want a fast-paced game, not a sit-in. |
I don't think you have even heard of any of the new features being put in. They are making it faster to level up between lvl 5-24 now
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Originally Posted by Joe_Blow
Oh, and, if you really wish to fix the "boss farm problem" make custom critter groups REQUIRE at least one minion, one Lieutenant, and one Boss type. PROBLEM FIXED. And you didn't even have to tweak the experience tables!
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Ah, but the tweaked XP tables gives you options, while still encouraging minion/lt/boss custom groups.
If you want XP, make the full variety group.
But, if you're trying to make an intense challenge for yourself (as some of the people who create all-boss missions claim), then you still have that option..... you just have to content yourself with the fact that you're just doing it for the "Yeah, I can beat that!" rather than XP.
But at least you have that choice. Whereas with "make custom critter groups REQUIRE at least one minion, one Lieutenant, and one Boss type," you wouldn't.
Not a perfect solution, but it is a reasonably good balance between "let them make what they want" and "prevent them from boss farm PL'ing."
The Devs gave us the means to create an infinite amount of new content. People chose to use it to farm - to run the same mission over and over (a more efficient but even more monotonous treadmill) until they reached the level cap. And then complain, as you do here, that there's no new content.
The evidence suggests that what people REALLY want is a "Win the Game" button.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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I don't think "if you don't have every rank in your custom group, we'll hit your XP with a spiked bat" counts as "encouraging."
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Originally Posted by Kiralyn
Ah, but the tweaked XP tables gives you options, while still encouraging minion/lt/boss custom groups.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I used to play the game for the content. Nowadays, I find myself playing the game to create interesting builds. The days of exploration and wonder are gone and are replaced with build experimentation and IO combination. I fund this experimentation with my 50s. I do this by running a mission full of minions and lieutenants in a non-player created mission and selling the rare purple recipes that occasionally drop. Am I a bad member of the community for doing this?
No.
In above said mission, when I have a friend who reaches level 45 and they wish to group, I add them without SK/LK and tell them to relax and chat with me while they enjoy the fruits of my effort. The fact that I am sharing my experience and infamy with them, helping them get to 46-48 rather easily is not an exploit by any definition. Does this make me a bad member of the community?
No.
I have an AE mission made as a stress test of my ability to deal with controlling different situations with my Ice/Ice/Mako Dominator. EVERY SINGLE mob in this mission is of the boss type, and often there are multiples in each encounter. I use my abilities to neutralize them, AND earn good experience, and a laughably small amount of tickets. I find it a very enjoyable time. Am I a bad member of the community for doing this?
No.
I have a few characters that can handily solo large groups of +3 and +4 mobs. When the new SK/LK system comes out and I include someone in my group and they get the experience of fighting +4 to +5 mobs, will it be an abuse of the new system?
No.
When you create a system as dynamic as CoX, you can ALWAYS find ways to smooth out or speed up the game play. Smart people will find "sweet spots" while the average Joe will fall in line and play the game the way it was "intended" and less gifted people will become frustrated and quit.
This change isn't going to attract a boatload of "new" people. This change might bring back some old people, but at the same time, it will alienate others. I just hope they've weighed and measured accurately.
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It would be nice to have some positive reinforcement to go along with the negative, yes, but people have demonstrated that any positive benefits will be ruthlessly maximized and exploited. We keep losing carrots because of this abuse, until all that is left is the stick.|
Originally Posted by macskull
I don't think "if you don't have every rank in your custom group, we'll hit your XP with a spiked bat" counts as "encouraging."
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Joe Blow:
Lovely post, but it does nothing to address the inherent contradiction in your OP, where you demand that the Devs give us more content, so that it can be ignored (along with all the new player-created content) in favor of the most efficient farms.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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I was implying that, with new content people would be willing to "experience" the game as opposed to XP'ing the game, if you get my drift. Idle hands are the Devil's playground, so to speak. I know that if there were more interesting content, I'd be doing that instead of Frankensteining Hero/Villain builds because I have nothing better to do other than perhaps play a different game (Sacred 2 FTW!)|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Joe Blow:
Lovely post, but it does nothing to address the inherent contradiction in your OP, where you demand that the Devs give us more content, so that it can be ignored (along with all the new player-created content) in favor of the most efficient farms. |
I'm not opposed to change, but I am opposed to large negative adjustments with only fluff to compensate for the shock. The gameplay experience will radically change.
Don't get me wrong, I would NEVER be opposed to the leveling curve being adjusted to make it slower, as long as the game is made commensurately engrossing and the options at each level more dynamic. As it stands, the difference between level 32 and 33 for any archetype is next to nothing, as filler levels without spending inordinate amounts of inf are nothing but garbage. Power specialization, transformation, and maybe even focus INSTEAD of slots at those levels would at least give you a choice!
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There is tons of new content post I14. Some of it is even actually good. And yet, rather than "experience" it, it seems that most players would rather have the "experience" of beating up the same boss (or lt), on the same map, for hours on end, if it gives them more xp faster without all that inconvenient "story" or "flavor" or "risk", and especially without ever having to move from one building in one zone.|
Originally Posted by Joe_Blow
I was implying that, with new content people would be willing to "experience" the game as opposed to XP'ing the game, if you get my drift. Idle hands are the Devil's playground, so to speak. I know that if there were more interesting content, I'd be doing that instead of Frankensteining Hero/Villain builds because I have nothing better to do other than perhaps play a different game (Sacred 2 FTW!)
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(and before you claim I'm just jelus, I know of a lot of good arcs not by me that aren't getting played while people spam advertisements for Rikti teams, boss teams, etc.)
So, again, the observed data suggests that your hypothesis is flawed. These people don't want content. They just want a level 50 character. Now.
At least on the old "treadmill", the scenery changed now and then. But it wasn't fast enough for some people, so they built a "better" one. They still aren't going anywhere, but they're getting there quicker.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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I'd be lying if I said the changes they have made weren't part of the reasons I was leaving. It was actually a very dirty trick that the dev's pulled to people who enjoy farming. |
Originally Posted by Joe_Blow
I don't believe I am contradicting myself. Allow me to explain:
Bridging was an unintended side effect of the SK/LK system. People used it to run Nemesis farms and level people rather quickly. They left it this way a LONG time. So long, in fact, that it has gotten its own term. Changing the system now, WILL cause attrition. There's no avoiding it. There are people who play that like leveling fast. There are quite a few who want to at least get to 20 so they can get stamina and not have to rest between battles. They want a fast-paced game, not a sit-in. Boss Farms: Here's an interesting situation. On average, bosses are the most experience rich mobs in the game for their difficulty. If your primary reason for playing is leveling, then why fight a Family minion with a long range machine gun attack and a weak melee attack, when you can fight a Praetorian Slammer that has only a short range shotgun attack and an easily avoidable but devastating melee attack? You create a situation where players can create their own content and are surprised when the missions that grant the most experience are the ones that are played the most? Why? You're missing the point, and doing it all wrong. Oh, and, if you really wish to fix the "boss farm problem" make custom critter groups REQUIRE at least one minion, one Lieutenant, and one Boss type. PROBLEM FIXED. And you didn't even have to tweak the experience tables! |
The pulled people away from the conventional method of farming through using bridges by implementing a better method to farm, AE. Then they data mine and go "Oh look! Hardly anyone uses bridges, lets change the SK system", well duh. The dev's are idiots if they think that the conventional method of powerleveling wasn't being used exorbantly prior to AE. Do I think they are idiots? No, I think they are sneaky and don't play nice. It's like playing in a D&D game with a really bad dungeon master. We've all been there.
In addition to changing the conventional method's of farming, they now nerf the hell out of AE. The developers are indeed taking CoH down a road of no return. I hope the few remaining players enjoy it.
Oh yeah,
DOOOOOOMMMMMM
Ever hear the boy who cried wolf? People cry it so much, that when it does finally come to pass, people won't even realize it. Ultima Online is a great example of that.
Wow, Folonious, you're right. It's almost as if they don't like farming and want you to stop.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Preposterous! It's almost as if the dev's didn't intend AE to be the farmer's headquarters, as they have repeatedly announced!|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Wow, Folonious, you're right. It's almost as if they don't like farming and want you to stop.
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You'd think that this game was, in fact, not meant to be played by reaching the level cap as quickly as possible, but by enjoying the content from level 1?
What kind of crazy game would that be?!
This is becoming absurd. People are talking about how the developers should treat farming and powerlevelling and suchforth, when the developers themselves have stated numerous times that these are practices they don't approve of. And now people expect them to design around them? Fat chance.
Like the bug in the road, faming, powerlevelling, brifging and the whole enchelada are going to get stepped on by game development either intentionally or completely as a matter of course. It always amazes me how people can choose the bend the rules and then DEMAND that they have been slighted when the rules shift to deny them their loophole. You were never promised or guaranteed the ability to farm, powerlevel, mid, brifge or whatever. Even if it was tolerated, and even if it was tolerated for years, that doesn't mean anyone is under any obligation to support it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Joe (I figured it would actually be more polite than calling you Mr. Blow) What you're consistently ignoring here is human nature. Just because there is tons of stuff to do, doesn't mean that everyone will do it.
You can add 10 TIMES the content that is in the game now, but if people can still level extremely fast and get tons of rewards some other way, they will ignore ALL of it. The devs are actually doing everything in their power to encourage people to experience more of the game. Content takes time to make. You can't just say "give us more content" and expect to see it next week. Going Rogue, by the sound of it, is going to be at least as large as City of Villains, maybe bigger, and ALL of it is brand new content. Yeah, you have to pay for it, but for a 5 year old game to be just now releasing it's SECOND paid expansion, when everything else has been free, is pretty good.
But it doesn't matter, because as soon as people figure out the new exploit, they're going to flock there in droves.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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You stated that the AE was designed to provide players with a way to create and share new content, then stated that players are farming and PLing because there is no new content.|
Originally Posted by Joe_Blow
I don't believe I am contradicting myself.
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You say that players PL to experience the end game because there is no new content, but there is no end game and there has been new content (from both AE and developers).
You refer to the existing player base as "what's left" when there is not only no evidence of a mass exodus, but in fact, NCSoft's numbers indicate that the game is stable, and those numbers don't include the new subscriptions for the last couple of months or the players returning in anticipation of I16 or Going Rogue.
You claim that the upcoming changes are unsatisfactory to players, yet there's a rather resounding lack of doom crying (despite your less than masterful attempt to stir some up).
You insist that players will get tired of playing this game if it isn't granted with an immediate and dramatic increase in content and level, yet you don't even attempt to address the reality that this sudden mass lack of interest that you foresee hasn't happened in the five years that the game has been running with regular small infusions of new content and no level cap increases beyond the addition of the 40-50 range.
You assert that the developers are attempting to artificially slow down player leveling, yet it wasn't all that long ago that the developers completely revamped the XP tables and made leveling drastically faster across the board, and are doing so again for the 5-24 range in I16.
You most certainly have contradicted yourself, as well as ignored facts and made unfounded and clearly self-serving statements in an attempt to portray a critical situation which does not exist and never has for this game.
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Perhaps I am speaking too emotionally and not logically enough for the idea I was attempting to convey. I don't believe CoX is doomed, but I do believe that altering the current formula is a gamble. They can run the numbers and work out the kinks in a beta environment, but the people who play the game, and even the people who mine the rich veins of experience from the more XP-dense mobs are ultimately who decide the fate of the game (unless some executive somewhere decides to just pull the plug, that is.)|
Originally Posted by Luminara
You stated that the AE was designed to provide players with a way to create and share new content, then stated that players are farming and PLing because there is no new content.
You say that players PL to experience the end game because there is no new content, but there is no end game and there has been new content (from both AE and developers). You refer to the existing player base as "what's left" when there is not only no evidence of a mass exodus, but in fact, NCSoft's numbers indicate that the game is stable, and those numbers don't include the new subscriptions for the last couple of months or the players returning in anticipation of I16 or Going Rogue. You claim that the upcoming changes are unsatisfactory to players, yet there's a rather resounding lack of doom crying (despite your less than masterful attempt to stir some up). You insist that players will get tired of playing this game if it isn't granted with an immediate and dramatic increase in content and level, yet you don't even attempt to address the reality that this sudden mass lack of interest that you foresee hasn't happened in the five years that the game has been running with regular small infusions of new content and no level cap increases beyond the addition of the 40-50 range. You assert that the developers are attempting to artificially slow down player leveling, yet it wasn't all that long ago that the developers completely revamped the XP tables and made leveling drastically faster across the board, and are doing so again for the 5-24 range in I16. You most certainly have contradicted yourself, as well as ignored facts and made unfounded and clearly self-serving statements in an attempt to portray a critical situation which does not exist and never has for this game. |
I like the current game. I believe that most of you do too, unless you are here in some kind of masochistic bent. I am simply saying that I do not like where the game SEEMS TO BE going. I have the experience of having been in other games that messed with the formula and paid the ultimate price, either by major attrition or a significant outcry by the current subscribers threatening to do so.
Can I say it again? Well I will anyway. CoX is NOT doomed, but it WILL cause some people to leave. Change does that almost every time. More tenacious players will attempt to replicate the XP curve they discovered by some alternate means, and I'm sure, knowing what I know now about the changes, many will be able to. Still, some archetypes will now level 2-3 times as fast as they used to, soloing instances amped up for groups of 3-8, but not all will be able to. The less solo-friendly builds will fall behind in the leveling curve, while those built to withstand punishment will prosper. Those who "exploited" in the past, will prosper in the future. Keep in mind, this is on a slower server where groups are very hard to come by unless you want to do an AE farm.
The reason I am so passionate about these changes is because I love this game. I hope the changes are for the better, but at the same time I am skeptical. I apologize wholeheartedly if I raised anyone's hackles, but at the same time, I am glad to see the people on the other side of the table arguing with just as much conviction as I.
Thanks for talking with me and making several valid arguments.
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Loopholes? Allowing someone to sk to a lvl 46, or have a lvl 30 join a lvl 35 team to increase potential reward or increased difficulty? Those aren't loopholes, it's playing a game how you want to play it. When large changes such as that are removed from the game, quite obvisouly, the people who played like that will leave.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This is becoming absurd. People are talking about how the developers should treat farming and powerlevelling and suchforth, when the developers themselves have stated numerous times that these are practices they don't approve of. And now people expect them to design around them? Fat chance.
Like the bug in the road, faming, powerlevelling, brifging and the whole enchelada are going to get stepped on by game development either intentionally or completely as a matter of course. It always amazes me how people can choose the bend the rules and then DEMAND that they have been slighted when the rules shift to deny them their loophole. You were never promised or guaranteed the ability to farm, powerlevel, mid, brifge or whatever. Even if it was tolerated, and even if it was tolerated for years, that doesn't mean anyone is under any obligation to support it. |
Your correct, it was in Co* for years, and all those people who played for all those years, many veteran players I'm guessing, who played like that will soon realize that these changes are leading Co* down a long, dull, boring road.
Cheers to half of you who will enjoy this long, dull road. Hopefully the other half, I'll meet up with you in another MMO.
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Tomato, tomahto.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
Loopholes? Allowing someone to sk to a lvl 46, or have a lvl 30 join a lvl 35 team to increase potential reward or increased difficulty? Those aren't loopholes, it's playing a game how you want to play it.
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If players deserve to be allowed to play "the way they want to play it," then there would be Instant I Win buttons on every screen.
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Your argument holds no substance. Because that's the way it has been is no argument that that's the way it should be. If the developers perceive it as a problem, they WILL attempt to fix it, or at the very least ignore it when planning future changes. Unless you're of the opinion that no problem is ever worth working towards solving unless a solution is guaranteed and absolute, this is simply empty, and that notion itself is a farce.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
Loopholes? Allowing someone to sk to a lvl 46, or have a lvl 30 join a lvl 35 team to increase potential reward or increased difficulty? Those aren't loopholes, it's playing a game how you want to play it. When large changes such as that are removed from the game, quite obvisouly, the people who played like that will leave.
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| Your correct, it was in Co* for years, and all those people who played for all those years, many veteran players I'm guessing, who played like that will soon realize that these changes are leading Co* down a long, dull, boring road. |
You want to preach doom. Go ahead. You have an agenda. That's fine. But please don't try to hide behind a this absurd mask of righteousness. Feel free to believe whatever you want to believe and share any opinions you feel like, but don't try to invent arguments to back them up.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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(This is not just a suggestion, but a series of suggestions based upon upcoming content)
AE was supposed to be about playing different content than the "treadmill" that players have been running on for years by enabling other players to make stories to share with the rest of the population. People want new content, but in the absence of new content, a number of people want to be in the endgame. Boss farms, bridges, and health/stamina objects were the way to do that. If the people now behind CoX want to leverage what's left of their player base by tweaking mechanics that have been in place a long time, it is at a risk to them. There are tons of new games on the horizon, and if people are frustrated with a change, even if that change is for the betterment of the game in the long run, they will turn tail and leave. I've seen it in EverQuest and Anarchy Online. Both times the changes were made, the game began its downward spiral, and populations of both games dwindled dramatically afterward.
CoX is making the same kinds of decisions. They want to slow down the CoX experience without enriching the content of the game. Being able to tint your powers is interesting, yes, but the glamor of such a superficial change will wear off within a couple of months. If they want this game to survive the next generation of MMORPG's, then they need to quintuple the current content. They need to create so much to do, that one could reach 50 twenty times over and not play a single mission twice. They need triple the amount of villain/hero groups, and they need to increase the level cap. Without these changes, people will get tired of the slow grind and say farewell.
I have had many fun experiences in CoX. I'd love for these experiences to continue. Please, don't be dunderheads. Stop focusing on the "shine" of the game and overhaul the engine. It badly needs a tune up.