Architect Entertainment, Boss Farms, and the "Treadmill"

The only farce here is assuming that ignoring something is doing nothing. They choose to leave something in the game that, if taken out at a later date, will effect people when it's removed. You say they WILL attempt to fix it, but obviously they didn't. In ignoring it, they allowed people to perceive that it is acceptable. Taking something away that a large group of players, and many of those players with multiple accounts, use is shooting yourself in the foot.

The only reason you don't see the substance is because you are ignoring the argument.


I base my evidence off of the quantity of players that farm and powerlevel. Are you suggesting this doesn't occur? Not everyone that farms or powerlevels are going to leave obviously. I'm sure they will even find new ways to accomplish this. There will, however, be a number of people who will always feel that it's just not worth it, and quit. What is opinion is the size of the people who leave. So until they actually leave, yes it's opinion. But I base my opinions off sound facts. A large population of Co* farm. They are now nerfing farming. Combine that with the multiple, albeit ridcuolous "AE is ruining the game" threads, and you have alot of unhappy people.

So yes, it's my opinion that Co* is going downhill, but my opinion is based from facts.

Righteousness? Hardly. You take to seriously to playing games. Something gets changed, and there are people who like it, and people who don't. The idea is to make the change small enough so the people who don't like it don't mind as much. What you call Righteousness is actually Buisness Savy, of which NC is losing in respect to Co*.

It's painfully obvious to see through the illusion they created in respect to farming in creating AE and saying, after data mining, that bridging hardly occurs. DUH

Your pretty much correct. IMO the route of farming to level 50 needs to remain, but there also needs to be a reason to run other content. Change purple drops so that they drop in TF's, or from running certain missions, but only specific ones for specific TF's as an example. As it stands now, everything is just to generic. You can get the same thing from running content 15 different ways. Take the way that's the easiest.

Now if you take those 15 different ways, and give 15 different things for each one of those ways, that will promote diversity. Why try to get purple drops through route A when route B is much easier.

No it doesn't.

Yes it does

No it doesn't.

lol

It needs to remain as one of the paths to a reward, but everything else needs to be taken out. AE for example, they did it wrong with I16 IMO. Get rid of all the rewards except for XP. Make getting merits the only way to get Pool D and C drops, etc.

As it is, you can even get pool d and c drops from bosses now.

Make it so you only get one thing from a specific action, and people will start diversifying.

Let's be completely honest here: everything the developers do is a gamble. Everything. They couldn't change the color of one blade of grass on an island that no-one ever visited without someone getting bent out of shape over it, and as much as that might sound like hyperbole, it's not.

There is no way to please everyone. No matter how hard the developers try. Even when they please most of the players, someone gets his/her knickers in a knot. So they do what they can to make the most players happy, find compromises if and when necessary and keep working to make the best game that they can. Sometimes they hit a home run, sometimes they bunt, sometimes they foul out, but the thing is, they love this game as much as we do, and they aren't going to let it die, or deliberately kill it off in the name of balance or "vision". It's not just a paycheck for them, it's something they genuinely enjoy working on and being involved with, and a big part of that enjoyment comes from experiencing our enjoyment.

They aren't going to make any changes which will kill the game. If they do drop the ball at some point, they'll pick it back up, fix it and keep trying to make the game better and the most players happy.

I recall the threads in which many PvPers declared that they were going to cancel their accounts if the I13 changes went live, and that many of them proclaimed that this would be the death of Co* because they had multiple accounts and believed that they comprised a significant percentage of the player base.

I also recall the NCSoft numbers which were released a few months ago showing that this "mass exodus" had no measurable impact. If there was any, it was so slight as to be completely negligible.

Are some players going to quit because of the changes being made in I16? Certainly. But we're also going to gain players, some naturally (found out about the game and decided to try it), some specifically because of the I16 changes (account reactivations, word of mouth, good press, etc.).

The problem is, no-one except the developers can say for certain where the game is going. Given that, quitting due to uncertainty may not be the optimal reaction. Let me make an example of myself, if I may.

Over the past year, I've noticed that a lot of changes appeared to have been intended to make soloing easier and teaming less of a necessity, and I originally concluded that the developers were simply trying to make the entire game solo-friendly and leaving teaming as a socialization option. But then, one or two little things stood out in my mind, and some of the new content got my attention, and I asked a question or two, and I realized that my initial impression had been wrong. The developers haven't been trying to make the entire game solo-friendly, they've been trying to... to shift the way the game challenges us.

This game has been pretty much the same from release until Cryptic sold it to NCSoft. We soloed missions, teamed up for S/TFs and trials, ganged up to beat up GMs and do the raids, and that was pretty much it. "Challenge" was determined primarily by enemy level and number. But after the remaining developers took the reins in hand, they started changing that. Instead of simply ramping up enemy level or throwing hordes of foes at us, they started making trickier enemies and changing the way the game works.

Ouroboros and its multitude of challenge settings, which were then added to S/TFs and trials. Cimerora, with its completely new enemies which require completely new approaches and tactics. The Reichsman S/TF, a "gadget fight", something never done before in this game and which requires players to once again realign their perception of what "challenge" means in this game.

Once I noticed all of these little puzzle pieces and started putting them together, I realized that the goal wasn't to "dumb down" the game to such a degree that my cat could play for me... it was to make the general game easy enough for casual players while still delivering respectable challenges for teams, SGs and "hardcore" players. Previously, the entire game was, essentially, the same "challenge level" for everyone and everything. Now, there's the easy part, leveling up, and the hard part, the special stuff that they've made and are still making (i wouldn't be at all surprised if some really unique and challenging content comes out with Going Rogue).

I thought I knew where the game was going, but I didn't. I may even be wrong about where it's going with this theory of mine, because I haven't actually asked Castle about any of this. But the point is, we never really know what's on the developers' minds or what their intentions are, unless we do ask or we can see a clear example.

Now, back to your concern, the developers have stated that they do not support farming or power leveling. But they also appear to have accepted that these are facts of life, as evidenced by the rather dramatic change to the way difficulty will be handled in I16 (the team size and difficulty settings, which will replace the old "difficulty slider"). They aren't trying to wipe out farming and power leveling once and for all, what they are doing is trying to control it in some way so it doesn't reach the drastic levels it hit when the AE was added and subsequently exploited and abused. They're trying to alleviate the burden of having to constantly monitor the game for exploitative behavior and abuse of the systems and mechanics, and at the same time even out the leveling speed so they can better monitor the ATs and various objectives (missions, trials, etc.) so they can more quickly and easily locate problem areas and fix them.

They're trying to make the game better, smoother and more equal for everyone. And I do think that's the right direction, and that they're taking the right approach.

This is partially true, but it's also not. The changes will make leveling easier for everyone. Everyone, not just farmers or power levelers or players with the "right" ATs. Farmers, power levelers and certain builds will be able to utilize the changes to level faster, certainly, but it won't be as enormous a difference as one player going from 1-50 in four days while another player takes three to six months, which is what started happening when the AE was added. There will still be a spread there, but it will be more compressed, more reasonable, more equal. The difference between the farmers/PLers/"special" ATs and everyone else won't be as big as it is now. And if/when outlier cases are spotted, it will be easier to figure out why they're outliers and how to fairly deal with them, rather than nerfing entire ATs, waving the banstick around or yanking content out of the game.

I tend to spend most of my play time on low pop servers, and in the middle of the night, so I understand the frustration with teaming being the way it is now. But I think we should wait and see what how I16 pans out before deciding whether or not it's driving a nail into Co*'s coffin. After all, if there are that many players camping the AE buildings for those boss farms, it's likely that at least some of them are going to step outside, blink a few times at the shiny orb in the sky and realize that there's an entire game world out there to be experienced, and want to do it on teams.

I have come to trust the developers over the years. They don't always make the right decisions, but they care so much, they try so hard and they're so approachable and willing to bend over backwards to make us happy, they've earned my respect and faith. Don't mistake that for blind fanpersonism, I don't hesitate to call them out when I know they're doing something wrong, or complain about things that I don't like, but I do it with the knowledge that they are listening, are concerned and are trying to make the best game possible for as many people as they can.

I believe in them. I've talked about things like this with Castle, and you have no idea how much joy he gets out of doing his job and making a lot of people happy. Our satisfaction really is what gets him out of bed, to his desk and through the bad days. We, the players, are everything to him. The entire team cares just as much. Whatever happens, they're going to do their best to keep this game going for a long, long time and make it better every day.

Yes it does. Believe it or not, there are some people who have zero interest whatsoever in story or in this contact's arc or that contact's arc, or even for the most part the 1-49 game. Some people like to PvP. Some people like to run a lot of TFs at the level cap (ITF, STF, RSF, LGTF, KTF, BSF, Hami). Those playstyles are no less valid than anyone else's. I liked the ability to quickly powerlevel a character to 50 because it meant that I was able to get all the powers I wanted and see how it performed quickly, and if I didn't like it, I could just delete it without any feelings of attachment.

Of course, none of my opinions matter since I'm just a dirty PLer and I've obviously been exploiting the game since I've started playing. But, as your signature says, "If you're having fun, you're doing it right." Odd that I must be doing it wrong yet still having fun.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

In essence, what you have here is bad player perception in that if something hasn't been changed it must therefore be intended to be this way, when it is quite highly obvious to anyone who stops to think about it that it is either a very serious loophole, or the developers are morons for having designed something to be so exploitable. Because this is gameplay that is within the rules in a very technical sense, it doesn't mean it is intended. And you can't fault the development team for not fixing all such problems that ever existed instantly, because it comes down to resources. You can't fix everything, and some things don't even have a readily available fix to begin with.

This is Smoke Grenade all over again. You say "It's been like this so they should have changed it in another way." and I say "I saw this coming a mile away and I'm not in the least bit surprised it happened." In case you haven't notices, problems get fixed only when they become real problems. The potential for people to exploit the system within the rules isn't as pressing of a problem when people aren't actually exploiting it, but when they start to exploit it en masse, a fix becomes required. Bridging and powerlevelling have always been present, but they have never been so omni-present as they are now, hence why a fix for them now is higher priority than a fix for it was than.

[/quote]I base my evidence off of the quantity of players that farm and powerlevel. Are you suggesting this doesn't occur? Not everyone that farms or powerlevels are going to leave obviously. I'm sure they will even find new ways to accomplish this. There will, however, be a number of people who will always feel that it's just not worth it, and quit. What is opinion is the size of the people who leave. So until they actually leave, yes it's opinion. But I base my opinions off sound facts. A large population of Co* farm. They are now nerfing farming. Combine that with the multiple, albeit ridcuolous "AE is ruining the game" threads, and you have alot of unhappy people.[/quote]

You base your opinion and your evidence on anecdotes and you claim them to be facts. This is a fallacy. If you want to cite the "quantity" of players who farm and would leave if they couldn't, then I'd expect you to have some hard data. If you don't, it's anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence, in fact, that contradicts mine completely. I've not noticed a lot of people farming, nor have seen many requests for farms. In fact, I got more invitations to farm teams in the I2-I4 days than I have ever gotten since the Architect launched. I've teamed with people and not had much trouble finding teams. Teams for regular TFs and just regular teams are constantly being formed in the global channels I am a member of. If you want to claim a quantity, you're going to have to get some actual evidence of what that quantity actually is, because it doesn't seem nearly as big to me as it does to you.

Besides, the whole argument is absurd. A change was made and people will leave. That's not news. People leave over every change that is made to the game, even over something as simple as swapping how Thigh-High Boots look in the costume editor. People will leave, obviously. You can't really claim how many unless we see NC's quarterly report, and even then you can't claim why they left, what with Champions Online being the new MMO everyone wants to try. You base your argument on nothing more than anecdote and conjecture, rather than actual fact and evidence, and you are certainly not objective.

You may need to recheck the meaning of the word "righteousness." Specifically "self-righteousness." If this were stated as merely an opinion, as "I think" or "I feel," I wouldn't have anything against it. Everyone is welcome to their opinions. But when you start manufacturing evidence to make yourself look justified and morally superior because you can see the truth behind the lies while we fools keep buying low-brow propaganda, that is the very definition of self-righteousness. You are inventing your own righteousness and based on it claiming the moral high ground, and that simply doesn't work on me, specifically since you have nothing to back it up but conjecture, supposition and, frankly, a fair bit of arrogance. Your is a malicious argument if ever I saw one, because you trade truth and opinion for manufactured fact to force your position true. At this point, you corrupt whatever truth there may have been in your statement to begin with.

You are welcome to your opinion, and I might have even agreed with it if it weren't presented as the objective truth it quite clearly isn't.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

And you missed the point again. Whether or not it is intended is irrelevant. It has been left in the game, and thus, has become part of the game. Doing nothing about something is still doing something about it, and thus, effects the community if it's removed later. You claim powerleveling/farming was unintended, and regardless of whether it is or it isn't, removing it at this stage of the game to the extent they are doing will make people unhappy.


The only people to blame are the developers. If they leave something like bridging and quick leveling in the game for over 3 years, and then change it, I will most certainly blame the development team because they are the one's who changed it.

If you play a PnP game, and it's a terrible game, the GM is the reason, not the players. A competent GM will be ready for any situation.

Nobody could have seen this coming from when the sk system was implemented unless your Unique Dragon who predicted Dupping and the market.

So again, your saying that powerleveling and farming wasn't occuring?

This is wrong. There are channels for people who powerlevel farm. Justice Powerlevel is one, Freedom PI, all you ever saw was people looking for farms. If you think this wasn't going on before AE, your blind, and it's pointless to point these facts out because you'll just end up sticking your head in the dirt. Even on the forums, there were threads about "Stop the PI Farming", and now it's "Stop the AE Farming". The quantity of farming is still the same, it's just moved to Atlas instead of PI. Because this has happened, all the new players are now learning about how to farm quicker. That is why this is getting addressed now and people are becoming more vocal over it.


Because they are facts.

Go to Atlas park and count the number of times you see a boss/farm team looking for more. Figure 8 people per team.

What server do you play? Check all servers, I play Virtue, Inifinity, and Justice. I notice it less on Infinity, but farming is still there.


If I wrote the data down, you'd prolly stick you head in the dirt anyways. Besides, I'm leaving, so why would I want to waste my time. Why I'm bothering even replying to you I'm still trying to figure out ...


I agree with this!

Your ideas of facts and opinions are wrong. Make a data table if you are that concerned from all servers based on population to the number of AE farms running. My guess is Freedom and Virtue will both be close to half the population is farming.

You may need to check the definition of ignorance and stupidity. Which do you fall under?

I feel that Co* is going downhill ... that's opinion, but it's based from facts. Not my fault if your to narrow minded to understand that.

Let me spell this out in as small words as possible. People farm regular content. AE enters the game. People farm AE. AE gets nerfed because people farm AE. AE gets nerfed more because people still farm AE. Regular content gets nerfed because nobody's farming it. AE gets nerfed more because people are still farming it.

If you saw any of that is made up, I'll stick my hand through the internet and smack you.


The arrogance is all you.

Your problem is you think the Dev's do no wrong, and all changes to the game lies on the fault of the players. While players have some say over what gets changed, it's very minimal. The developers have final say in what gets done and what gets changed, and when it gets changed. This all effects the game play.

It's pointless to argue with someone who lacks any intelligence, or is a troll.

It does if the devs think dirty, grubby farmer money spends just as good as clean, sanitized 'casual' gamer money.

And they do.

What they don't want is widespread, super efficient leveling/reward generation, and they will take steps to keep farming behavior from spreading beyond the highly motivated group who pursue it as their primary style of game play.

But they have zero interest in the kind of ideologically driven campaign of extinction you dream of.

Wow, once again I am Hitler.

People are always gonna be finding ways to pl, farm and exploit. They pretty much say that they don't care what the devs do, they'll eventually find ways around it. As long as the devs continue to make farming harder, at least they'll keep it away from the newbies.

By that logic, nothing can be changed in the game ever. As soon as it hits the live servers, it becomes "part of the game" and thus holy and untouchable. If the devs ever change their minds about anything, or realize an oversight, or find a problem, that's just too bad. The players have laid their hands on it, so it's off limits forever.

Will the community react to a change to something that's been in the game for an extended period? Of course. But the duration of a portion of the game has no bearing on its merit. A problem is a problem whether it was introduced at launch or yesterday.

And the devs are ready for this situation. Just because they're resolving it in a way you dislike doesn't make them suddenly incompetant; they saw something they perceived as a problem and they found a way to fix it.


Go to Atlas park and count the number of times you see a boss/farm team looking for more. Figure 8 people per team.


What server do you play? Check all servers, I play Virtue, Inifinity, and Justice. I notice it less on Infinity, but farming is still there.

When someone asks for proof to back up your argument, you don't say, "I have it, but you have to find it yourself." At least, not when you want your argument taken seriously.

At this point, you aren't trying to state anything useful.


There's a whole lot of arrogance here, but it's coming from the one calling his opponent "stupid", "ignorant", and "narrowminded".

Hardly. If the developers say that they do not support farming, and there is to be absolutely no farming in the AE, and anyone who uses the AE to farm will be dealt with, then the players are entirely at fault if they ignore that. If you do something the developers, who own and run the game, dislike, you run the risk of having the game changed in a way you dislike.

Sam is using intelligent debate tactics and presenting himself in a reasonable, understanding manner. Even if you disagree with his position, you can see that he's considering you decent enough to try intelligent debate. You're using insults, refusing to support your position, and throwing a fit. Which is the troll?

Seriously, is it really that hard of a concept to grasp or are people just throwing strawman arguments out there because they don't want to actually address the issue. As stated above in your quote, no, it's not holy, and they can touch it.

As stated how I've stated it, yes it's holy, and it can't be touched. Reading comprehension is good for you. learn it.

Edit: Not going to waste my time reading the rest of your post if you don't understand the subject that is being debated. Come back when you know more.

Oh? Am I misguided in how I define encouragement too?

Can't a threat "encourage" people to change their behavior? Also, way to phrase the change in perhaps the most bias way possible.