2 foot stomps > 1 foot stomp
More recharge=more stomping. Don't drop hasten.
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I don't recall the exact name for the system, but sometime ago they added a diminishing returns feature to enhancement bonuses. Once you hit around 90%, you get less and less actual effect from additional bonus.|
Originally Posted by filcher
The total % from Adjusted Targetting is 21.2+26.5+26.5+42.4=116% plus the lvl 50 Recharge enhancement (42.4%) comes to a grand total of 159% but the stat window shows a recharge rate bonus of 103.8%.
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(Also, watch your actual Set Bonuses. Apparently there's also a system where you can only get 5 of any specific bonus... like "+7.5% Recharge". Adding a sixth copy of that bonus won't do anything.)
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That is correct. At least, it sounds like about the right number. I would suggest reading about Enhancement Diversification on ParagonWiki.
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Originally Posted by filcher
The total % from Adjusted Targetting is 21.2+26.5+26.5+42.4=116% plus the lvl 50 Recharge enhancement (42.4%) comes to a grand total of 159% but the stat window shows a recharge rate bonus of 103.8%.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
"2 foot stomps > 1 foot stomp" -Chaos Creator
I agree but a Footstomp for 5 damage isn't doing me much good (and yes I understand the value of KD and activating the FF proc). The effect of successive multiple Rage crashes makes me think there is a curve where increased recharge diminishes in returns. So to rephrase, is there a global recharge % at which Hasten is no longer needed to double stack Rage? And at what point does the Rage recharge rate become more of a hinderance than a benefit?
For reference Footstomp has a current recharge rate of 13.07 sec's (the base recharge is 20 sec's). I have it 5 slotted w/Sirocco's Dervish and 1 Force Feedback Proc. What is the recharge time w/a global recharge of 55% (I am unsure of how it calculates this number)?
"I don't recall the exact name for the system, but sometime ago they added a diminishing returns feature to enhancement bonuses. Once you hit around 90%, you get less and less actual effect from additional bonus." -Kiralyn
I thought ED (Enhancement Diversification) only affected enhamncements that were of the same name. I did not realize it also calculated after 90% regardless...thanks for the info.
I'm also aware of the 5 rule but thank you.
"That is correct. At least, it sounds like about the right number." -Ironblade
I did not post the numbers because I thought they were incorrect. I posted them for reference in relation to my questions about recharge, Rage and Hasten. So to rephrase my question, if I remove the lvl 50 Recharge enhancement from Rage will it remain perma?
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I don't believe that's true, and if it is, I haven't heard of it yet.|
Originally Posted by Kiralyn
I don't recall the exact name for the system, but sometime ago they added a diminishing returns feature to enhancement bonuses. Once you hit around 90%, you get less and less actual effect from additional bonus.
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Per the wiki (which doesn't mean it's gospel, but I'd hope someone would have updated it by now if applicable): "Enhancement Diversification does not apply to special benefits or set bonuses. Hence, they are often used to get around the limitation of ED, and in some cases can provide greater percent improvement than the old pre-ED slotting."
I see no reference anywhere to set bonuses having "their own version of ED"...
Source: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Set_Bonuses
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Avatar detail taken from full-size piece by Douglas Shuler here
recharge reduction is calculated as 1 / ( 1 + sum of all recharge bonuses ).
So if a power has an even recharge SO in it (33.33%) then it recharges in 1 / 1.3333 or 75% of the time.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
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Tempus unum hominem manet
Well as an experiment I replaced the Recharge Rate enhancement w/a To Hit Buff and the recharge rate went from 1m57s to 2m1s which shows in the enhancement window as a 97.5% reduction. Since 2m is perma I think global recharge should take care of it.
I'm curious as to why the total set bonus adds up to 116% it shows 97.5% and, if my math is right, actually calculates out to 98.3%. I'm also wondering as to how it calculates that global bonus (currently 47.5%) and what my actual recharge rate will be.
"Enhancement Diversification does not apply to special benefits or set bonuses." -Eric_Nelson quoting Wikipedia.
The recharge rate reduction is not a "special" benefit nor is it a "set bonus" it is the % granted by each individual enhancement just like the generics. There must be a reduction based on the % granted that explains the numbers and I believe it is ED.
I've gotta say I've been running a few missions w/out using Hasten (and it's been hard stayin off the juice) and performance-wise I really haven't missed it. I imagine it will be even better once I get the toon fully slotted and increase the global recharge even further. It is especially noticable though when I hit mobs w/-rech and the FF proc fails 2 fire...but then again its been nice not to suffer through multiple rage crashes.
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Your statement thoroughly confuses me. Is the recharge % boost you are referring to from the individual IO's benefit (in which case, of course ED applies and that IO's recharge bonus ONLY applies to the power in which it's slotted), or is it due to the set bonus granted by having either a Luck of the Gambler +Recharge IO or multiple pieces of an IO set (in which case, I firmly believe that ED does NOT apply, unless someone can demonstrate to me a source to the contrary or actual, empirical evidence thereof).|
Originally Posted by filcher
The recharge rate reduction is not a "special" benefit nor is it a "set bonus" it is the % granted by each individual enhancement just like the generics. There must be a reduction based on the % granted that explains the numbers and I believe it is ED.
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Because either talking about a benefit from a "set bonus" (again, the 2, 3, 4 or 5 [a few times more] bonuses granted for having multiple pieces of the same IO set [or in a case like the LotG IO, for having that one particular piece]), or from the specific IO (i.e., Level X Recharge IO slotted into the power(s) in question).
After reading your statement again, are you saying it's the recharge bonus that applies ONLY to the power directly from the set IO (in other words, you have a set slotted that grants a number of direct effects on the power itself [and only the power itself])? If so, that's no different than the benefit given to a power by a generic IO, and is subject to ED.
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OK so I saw that you removed the recharge IO in Rage. By any chance, you don't have Rage on auto do you? No matter how much recharge you have, you almost never want to click on Rage again until it is blinking. Exceptions are harder to hit oppenents and for the sheer joy of doing a ton of damage that hopefully kills a mob quickly.
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Originally Posted by filcher
I am playing a level 50 Brute (SS/WP) and have started to build set bonuses. My question concerns Rage and Recharge.
Currently I have a global recharge of 47.5% to which I could add another 7.5% if I drop Hasten for Combat Jump (and slot LotG) for a total of 55%. Additionally adding Combat Jump and 3 slotting it w/LotG would also increase my overall defense and my max health (which would increase my regeneration rate as well). I also have a Force Feedback Proc in Footstomp. Rage currently is slotted with 1 lvl 50 Recharge enhancement and 5 slotted Adjusted Targetting for a Recharge of 1m57s making it permanent. I have noticed that for a good amount of time I have double Rage and w/Hasten (and possibly the FF Proc) I occasionally have triple Rage. I also seem to spend a substantial amount of time in Rage crash with this set up. The total % from Adjusted Targetting is 21.2+26.5+26.5+42.4=116% plus the lvl 50 Recharge enhancement (42.4%) comes to a grand total of 159% but the stat window shows a recharge rate bonus of 103.8%. So I have several questions concerning the numbers: 1) If I remove the Recharge rate enhancer from Rage will it still be permanent (sans the global recharge or Hasten modifiers)? And, as a follow up, if not how much global recharge would I need to make it perma w/out the lvl 50 42.4% Recharge rate enhancement (but w/Adjusted Targetting)? 2) Do I need Hasten to double up Rage or will a global recharge of 55% be enough? 3) Is triple stacked Rage really worth it in terms of extra damage vs crash time? Thank you in advance for your posts. |
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Unless you want to have stacked Rage (and who doesn't?), in which case autofire or clicking it as soon as it's up is exactly what you want to do.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Body
you almost never want to click on Rage again until it is blinking
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Set bonuses do not show up in power information. If you want to test that, take a known set bonus and check a power that has a low (sub-ED) enhancement bonus of that type. For example, say you've got a +15% set bonus to accuracy and you have a power that only gets a 21.2% bonus to accuracy from its slotted enhancements. When you look at the power info, it will show that accuracy has a 21.2% bonus. So far I haven't taken time to try looking for a way to get the final numbers... there may not be one, aside from doing the math yourself.
So here's a question - getting up to five copies of a set bonus, does it go by percentage or label (large damage bonus, for example)? I've seen people claim both ways. If the personal info screen only lists functional bonuses, then having six large damage bonuses show (with at least one value of 'large' different from the others) would mean it goes by percentage. So I guess the first step is to see if the info screen reports all bonuses or only functioning ones - has anyone, presumably because there were other set bonuses they wanted tied in, accumulated more than five copies of a matching percentage bonus? If so, please let us know if the info screen reports five bonuses of that size, or more.
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It goes by label. Set bonuses are actually powers granted to your character (which is why they show up in your powers tab), and all powers have a set number of copies you're allowed to have. For most powers, this is set to 1. For set bonuses, this is set to 5. Set bonuses with different labels are actually different powers, even if they give you the same benefit. For example, slotting 5 Sting of the Manticore into a power gives you the "Huge Improved Recharge Time Bonus", which gives you +7.5% recharge. Slotting a Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Recharge Speed gives you the "Luck of the Gambler: Recharge Speed", which also gives you +7.5% recharge. You're allowed to have 5 of both.
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Originally Posted by Tyrak
So here's a question - getting up to five copies of a set bonus, does it go by percentage or label (large damage bonus, for example)? I've seen people claim both ways.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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EASILY. My tank has 2 generic recharge in it and 20% global recharge bonus. That's enough for it to be perma. I have a bit over 5 seconds of overlap.
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Originally Posted by filcher
"That is correct. At least, it sounds like about the right number." -Ironblade
I did not post the numbers because I thought they were incorrect. I posted them for reference in relation to my questions about recharge, Rage and Hasten. So to rephrase my question, if I remove the lvl 50 Recharge enhancement from Rage will it remain perma? |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I have discovered suprising news (no doubt a number of you know already) that the number and the label match. Per the wiki, the label comes from the multiple of the base value for that bonus type... and no bonus exists as yet that does not match one of the multiples. Something I should have noticed while poring over lists of bonuses looking for the combinations from which I would get the most use.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
It goes by label.
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Oddly, the limit of the benefit you can get from set bonuses is determined chiefly by AT; secondarily by power pool selection. Since you can benefit from set bonuses only when you have powers that can accept that set, there may even be a point to sane people taking the presence pool.
So, somewhat back to topic, how do recharge bonuses work? Is it truly a reduction in time, or is that a convenient fiction and 'recharge time' adds up as a multiple of actual time elapsed (with a 50% recharge bonus giving you 1.5 seconds of 'recharge' for each second that passes)? Basically, does hasten speed up its own recharge rate?
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From Father Xmas post higher up:|
Originally Posted by Tyrak
So, somewhat back to topic, how do recharge bonuses work? Is it truly a reduction in time, or is that a convenient fiction and 'recharge time' adds up as a multiple of actual time elapsed (with a 50% recharge bonus giving you 1.5 seconds of 'recharge' for each second that passes)? Basically, does hasten speed up its own recharge rate?
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"recharge reduction is calculated as 1 / ( 1 + sum of all recharge bonuses ).
So if a power has an even recharge SO in it (33.33%) then it recharges in 1 / 1.3333 or 75% of the time. "
As I understand it, this value is recalculated (for each power on cooldown) as buffs/debuffs are applied. So yes, Hasten affects its own recharge. It would be (nearly?) impossible to reach perma-hasten regardless of build otherwise.
Icelock - Ice/Storm Controller
Command Bot 1 - Bot/Traps MM
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Yes, but the 'going by label' is important because Luck of the Gambler +recharge is in its own category. It is NOT the same as the regular 7.5% bonus. i.e. It has a different LABEL.
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Originally Posted by Tyrak
I have discovered suprising news (no doubt a number of you know already) that the number and the label match. Per the wiki, the label comes from the multiple of the base value for that bonus type... and no bonus exists as yet that does not match one of the multiples.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Thought I'd chime in.
1) If I remove the Recharge rate enhancer from Rage will it still be permanent (sans the global recharge or Hasten modifiers)? And, as a follow up, if not how much global recharge would I need to make it perma w/out the lvl 50 42.4% Recharge rate enhancement (but w/Adjusted Targetting)?
TECHNICALLY No, the recharge bonus from AT's enhancements alone would put the power at about 121 seconds recharge.
However including the 5% recharge set bonus from having 5 of them, it puts the power at about 118, making it perma by around 2 seconds.
2) Do I need Hasten to double up Rage or will a global recharge of 55% be enough?
55% global alone would put it around 95 seconds recharge, for about 25 seconds of double stack, 55%+hasten would put it at about 74 seconds recharge for about 46 seconds of double stack
(Assuming you had the AT 5 set in it and dropped the 50 recharge IO)
3) Is triple stacked Rage really worth it in terms of extra damage vs crash time?
IMO, no, though I don't have hard numbers on it for whether it's actually a detriment over time compared to double or single.
For reference Footstomp has a current recharge rate of 13.07 sec's (the base recharge is 20 sec's). I have it 5 slotted w/Sirocco's Dervish and 1 Force Feedback Proc. What is the recharge time w/a global recharge of 55% (I am unsure of how it calculates this number)?
Approximately 9.6 seconds--to explain how it calculates this, the game takes the base recharge of a power and divides it by your total recharge for that power.
Example for your foot stomp--
5 SD gives 53% recharge, so 20/1.53 = 13.07.
Also, a 55% global recharge means the total recharge bonus for that power is 108%(53+55), so 20/2.08 = 9.62
Furthermore, adding hasten makes the total recharge 178%(53+55+70) so 20/2.78 = 7.19
The recharge rate reduction is not a "special" benefit nor is it a "set bonus" it is the % granted by each individual enhancement just like the generics. There must be a reduction based on the % granted that explains the numbers and I believe it is ED.
Yes, it is ED, 5 ATs + 1 50 recharge IO gives 159% bonus. If you looked at the ED page on the wiki you'll see for enhancement values greater than or equal to 100% the formula is 95+(0.15 × (E - 100)
So...
95+(0.15 × (159 - 100)
95+(0.15 × 59)
95+8.85
103.85
Some things to note:
1. Set bonuses ARE NOT included when you hover over a power in the enhancement screen to check it's values so keep that in mind.
2. When calculating recharge,damage,or whatever, keep in mind that you are ALWAYS at a base 100%, which is why when you calc bonuses you add from 1.0 and not 0
I think I answered all your questions, feel free to ask more if you have any 
I am playing a level 50 Brute (SS/WP) and have started to build set bonuses. My question concerns Rage and Recharge.
Currently I have a global recharge of 47.5% to which I could add another 7.5% if I drop Hasten for Combat Jump (and slot LotG) for a total of 55%. Additionally adding Combat Jump and 3 slotting it w/LotG would also increase my overall defense and my max health (which would increase my regeneration rate as well).
I also have a Force Feedback Proc in Footstomp.
Rage currently is slotted with 1 lvl 50 Recharge enhancement and 5 slotted Adjusted Targetting for a Recharge of 1m57s making it permanent. I have noticed that for a good amount of time I have double Rage and w/Hasten (and possibly the FF Proc) I occasionally have triple Rage. I also seem to spend a substantial amount of time in Rage crash with this set up.
The total % from Adjusted Targetting is 21.2+26.5+26.5+42.4=116% plus the lvl 50 Recharge enhancement (42.4%) comes to a grand total of 159% but the stat window shows a recharge rate bonus of 103.8%.
So I have several questions concerning the numbers:
1) If I remove the Recharge rate enhancer from Rage will it still be permanent (sans the global recharge or Hasten modifiers)? And, as a follow up, if not how much global recharge would I need to make it perma w/out the lvl 50 42.4% Recharge rate enhancement (but w/Adjusted Targetting)?
2) Do I need Hasten to double up Rage or will a global recharge of 55% be enough?
3) Is triple stacked Rage really worth it in terms of extra damage vs crash time?
Thank you in advance for your posts.