1 question does the tank get this buff and teammates? or just teammates?
A few things:
1) Brutes do taunt their targets, yes, but only what they hit. Gauntlet affects the target and up to four other targets nearby, making it a much more useful aggro-management tool.
2) Masterminds are closer to tanks than brutes are.
3) A tank that has aggro effectively provides a 100% defense bonus to his teammates, in that no one is attacking them at all. The only dangers come from exceeding the aggro cap (working as intended), stripping aggro off the tank (also working as intended), or getting caught in an AoE. As far as the AoEs go, there's no reason that the Fireball you're caught in should spare you because the enemy that threw it is really, REALLY upset with the tank standing next to you. So the cost of that 10% defense boost is to stand in all the AoEs targeting the tank (albeit at a 10% reduction in likelihood that they would hit you)...or, you could stay outside of the 20' radius, and get that 100% defense.
Seems unnecessary to me.
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Defenders get Conserve Power too.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Decrease Endurance Usage: What about borrowing the Defender's negligence idea and decreasing endurance consumption? Well, one of the reasons negligence is called by such a name is that it's dependent on your team running out of health. Since not all defenders can heal, and since they have such low attack power, if the teams health goes low, there's not much they can really do. In the same way, how would a tanks endurance discount work? Would it be tied to team members? Well, then tanks have an inherent that's useless in small teams or while soloing, much like Defenders do. Is it tied to mob size? Like negligence there's just too many variables to make it a simple, reliable, and predictable inherent. Oh yeah, and there's also conserve power in the epic pools already. So. No
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I myself have always kind of liked the idea of porting a version of Vigilance to Tankers. I'm not sure it would strictly help them a ton, but the idea is fairly sound - lots of high-endurance Tanker attacks have built-in mezzes. Allowing a Tanker to use them more when the team is in peril would be nice. Oh, and the Tanker's health would affect the discount too.
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My main is a Tank, and I very much appreciate Gauntlet on teams. All I need to do is rush in, taunt, then follow with whirling hands, and the whole group immediately becomes fixated on me as their target.
Like Xyzyx said, a Tank who can taunt effectively provides a 100% defense buff to everyone, because all the enemies are attacking him. It would be harder to taunt a large group of enemies without Gauntlet.
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I'm in agreement with Xyzyx
Tanks have the Gauntlet inherent because so many Tanks weren't taking Taunt.
Tanks have the inherent they deserve so at least they are protecting their team-mate a little bit. In fact, that is their job on a team.
Tanks don't deserve more resistance, defense, damage, end mod, etc. as an inherent.
If a Tank wants more resistance, defense, damage, end mod, etc. - they can get some teammates to buff them, debuff the enemy, and do damage.
Tanks are not Superman. Tanks are not the omni-AT. Tanks are one of the ATs.
I have a good number of Tanks.
If you work with your teammates and you defended them, they appreciate you a lot more.
I don't think there is anyone that doesn't appreciate a Tank that has Taunt and knows how to use it while working as part of a team.
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I don't recall it that way. Tankers got the Gauntlet inherent because so many of them were taking Provoke from the Power Pools. It was the only way to hold aggro, because Tanker damage was so low. Tankers ended using nothing but Taunt and Provoke, hence the tern "tauntbot." The developers said that no Archetype should require a pool power to function, so they opened up the floor for suggestions. What came of that was Gauntlet, a bonus AOE Taunt effect added to each attack in the Tanker secondaries.|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
I'm in agreement with Xyzyx
Tanks have the Gauntlet inherent because so many Tanks weren't taking Taunt. |
Other than that, Altoholic, I agree. There's no reason to make Tankers into one-man armies, designed to defend against (and successfully hold off) an 8-man spawn single-handedly. You get teammates for a reason!
The common lament about Gauntlet is that it is virtually useless for a solo Tanker. Me, I'd suggest a percent chance to randomly add a tiny amount of AOE like a Critical Hit, but applied to other foes in range. Solo, this could be a 20% chance ... on a team, only 5%.
Well, part of the problem back then, IIRC, is that Taunt wasn't AoE either. Could be fuzzy on that, though.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
1 question does the tank get this buff and teammates? or just teammates?
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| 3) A tank that has aggro effectively provides a 100% defense bonus to his teammates, in that no one is attacking them at all. The only dangers come from exceeding the aggro cap (working as intended), stripping aggro off the tank (also working as intended), or getting caught in an AoE. As far as the AoEs go, there's no reason that the Fireball you're caught in should spare you because the enemy that threw it is really, REALLY upset with the tank standing next to you. So the cost of that 10% defense boost is to stand in all the AoEs targeting the tank (albeit at a 10% reduction in likelihood that they would hit you)...or, you could stay outside of the 20' radius, and get that 100% defense. |
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My main is a Tank, and I very much appreciate Gauntlet on teams. All I need to do is rush in, taunt, then follow with whirling hands, and the whole group immediately becomes fixated on me as their target. Like Xyzyx said, a Tank who can taunt effectively provides a 100% defense buff to everyone, because all the enemies are attacking him. It would be harder to taunt a large group of enemies without Gauntlet. |
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| Other than that, Altoholic, I agree. There's no reason to make Tankers into one-man armies, designed to defend against (and successfully hold off) an 8-man spawn single-handedly. You get teammates for a reason! |
First, half of you didn't actually read the proposal that I made.
- I am not advocating removing taunt from taunts
- I am not advocating removing gauntlet from tanks
- What I proposed is an addition to gauntlet that would benefit teammates and the support structure for the tank
- In the original post I outlined why several of the possible enhancements for a rework would result in over-powered god like tanks, and promptly dismissed such enhancements
Second of all, none of you seem to realize that I'm the one who wrote Blappers do Not Exist and routinely fuss at blasters playing in melee range, outright telling them to get out of melee range. However, just because certain archtypes aren't supposed to be in melee combat, does not mean that they don't enter melee combat. Case in point : Empath and Rads have PbAOE buffs. Sometimes they'll need to trigger these buffs in mid-combat. Several Blasters (and eventually corruptors with Going Rogue) have PbAOE nukes. I've lost count of the number of times a Blaster has waited for the tank to gather aggro, then run into the middle, only to be cut down by Critter PbAOE and AOE attacks before they could attack.
Now, I'm not saying this is the way to improve Gauntlet.
What I am saying is that right now, there is little play difference between the way a Brute gathers and keeps Aggro, and the way a Tank gathers and keeps aggro.
Also, Xyzyx: if you actually believe that Masterminds are closer to tanks than brutes, you need to have your head examined. There's no way you possibly explain how you came to that... insane... conclusion. Last I checked Masterminds didn't have the HP that tanks and brutes get. They don't have the defenses, resists, or anti-mezes that tanks / brutes get. They don't have the aggro control tanks / brutes get.
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A mastermind doesn't, but with bodyguard mode they kind of do, also, they have basically limitless HP if they can keep out of getting attacked themselves since they're pets are their lives.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Also, Xyzyx: if you actually believe that Masterminds are closer to tanks than brutes, you need to have your head examined. There's no way you possibly explain how you came to that... insane... conclusion. Last I checked Masterminds didn't have the HP that tanks and brutes get. They don't have the defenses, resists, or anti-mezes that tanks / brutes get. They don't have the aggro control tanks / brutes get.
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But, I personally would like to support this idea of adding to gauntlet and add my own idea: basically, for every opponent (max: 10) surrounding a tank in a 5 ft radius, the tank gains a -regen and -recovery debuff resistance starting at 7.5%.
I figure since it's not an actual buff to regen or recovery, this would not effect things too much, but at the same time it would mean that in large spawns or against large numbers, the tanker becomes all but immune to losing their ability to regenerate beneath their defenses or have their endurance taken from them and keep their toggles going.
The exact numbers may need to be tweaked and maybe even the debuff resistance expanded on to protect their res and defenses as well, but otherwise it seems balanced without going overboard from my view point.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Gauntlet is doing its job well, it doesn't need to be changed.
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You know, I seem to remember that taunted enemies don't run away. If a Tank taunts everything he fights, that means a tank never has to deal with runners. That sounds like it's useful solo.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Aye, Vanden speaks the truth.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
You know, I seem to remember that taunted enemies don't run away. If a Tank taunts everything he fights, that means a tank never has to deal with runners. That sounds like it's useful solo.
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Got Inf?
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That's not true. Taunted enemies will run sometimes and not run other times. Running enemies Taunted will sometimes stop and turn around to fight, and at other times will ignore you and keep on running. It's not a guarantee, and in my experience it doesn't work exactly when you need it to work.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
You know, I seem to remember that taunted enemies don't run away. If a Tank taunts everything he fights, that means a tank never has to deal with runners. That sounds like it's useful solo.
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Personally, I feel low-damage ATs are spending far too much endurance for the kind of damage they put out, to the point where it becomes not worth using some or all of their attacks. With that in mind, I would not be opposed to seeing an edurance discount for Tankers, at least of SOME kind.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Both correct and not.| I don't recall it that way. Tankers got the Gauntlet inherent because so many of them were taking Provoke from the Power Pools. It was the only way to hold aggro, because Tanker damage was so low. |
At the time, the tanker was required to take provoke for relatively easy threat retention, and provoke was easily spammable. Taunt was made AE to replace provoke, so tankers would not have to go into the pools for their "look at me" power.
One of the other major threads of tanker discord, however, was the tauntbot mentality - the notion that the tanker should not be most effective with taunt/provoke set to auto and going to get a soda. (We used to joke that I could go AFK and the groupmates could TP me around with Provoke autofiring and nobody would notice or care. Before some people start taking potshots - I said joke for a reason. I was more likely to actually swing that fire sword than taunt something. ;p)
At the time, pre-Gauntlet, tanker attacks still had a taunt component, but only on the target of the attack - so it was generally more effective to not even bother with the attacks, if you were just damage sponging. Provoke was autohit and AE - why bother with anything else? Gauntlet was implemented to address this - the theory being that a tanker should be actively participating in combat to generate taunt, not spamming a taunt button. When target caps went in, Taunt was given a lower cap to reinforce this, though it retained its autohit and relatively long recharge.
Tanker damage was a separate issue.
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While I don't really have an opinion of my own on if Gauntlet should be changed, as I don't play many tanks and I'm fairly certain the people who say I'm good at it are either just being kind or are not familiar with really good tanks, I do have an idea for how a change could work if it were decided it needed to be changed.
Except for certain circumstances/builds, all tanks I've ever seen go low on endurance some of the time during large fights with big foes. That's especially true when fighting sapping type foes such as carnies. It's been mentioned that an end boost or -end res would be nice, but the implementation has seemed a bit unwieldy. I would recommend the following if this were to be needed:
A combination of vigilance and fury: As the tanker attacks or is attacked, they fill a bar which indicates the level of their endurance discount (and/or -end/rec resistance). The max discount would never reach beyond a certain point (likely about %75 or so) but the max -end/rec res could probably go up to %100. Obviously I haven't given any thoughts to the game balance implications of this, since it's just off the top of my head, but as far as usefulness and implementation go I think this should be fairly good. The code would have to adapted from the brute inherent but it wouldn't have to be written from scratch and it would certainly be useful to all but the most tricked out of tanks, at least in heavy combat situations.
Robin
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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Brute punchvoke and Tanker Gauntlet are different, as noted above. Brutes do not have the Gauntlet "Splash" effect that draws more aggro from nearby enemies based on the attack.
On the other topic that grabbed my interest Masterminds have been the "Tanks" of CoV since it came out. Bodyguard made it easier to draw the aggro to a single point. Brutes have always played as damage dealers more than aggro magnets.
I think the real problem is Gauntlet is a simple mechanic developed at the very beginning of when Inherents went into play. When put up next the others it seems almost outdated, even if it does a good job. People like new and flashy abilites.
My problem with Gauntlet is that while it does help with aggro generation, the end result is nothing that can't be done by brutes sans-gauntlet just as easily. All it takes is a good taunt aura and an AoE or two. With the aggro cap as low as it is, a good brute can survive a capped spawn almost as easily as a tank. It sort of leads to a feeling of underachievement when you look at a brute and say, "Ok, he just took on the same spawn as me, and killed it three times faster."
What I would like to see is something done to gauntlet that would allow the tank to take better advantage of the fact that they do still have better survivability than most brute or scrappers. I have proposed in the past a buff to gauntlet that works a little bit like defiance, but adds to the tank's aggro cap rather than to his damage. So, on top of the small aoe taunt, each attack would give a boost to the tank's aggro cap for something like 5 seconds. A tank who is sitting around taunting would then have a cap of 17 enemies. A tank who is actively fighting might be mobbed by 20 or 30 at a time instead. The fact that it's on a short timer limits the ability for the tank to map herd. Plus, there's usefulness to the solo player which isn't afforded by the current Gauntlet.
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I haven't considered ramifications but my first impulse is that this is an excellent idea. Relative to map herding, the fact that you're not really attacking while running from spawn to spawn would mean that your cap would be short while you were pulling so it would give an incentive to stand still. Others could bring you spawns to taunt but they'd be vulnerable during the pull since you'd be occupied with the ones you'd already have.|
Originally Posted by Basilisk
My problem with Gauntlet is that while it does help with aggro generation, the end result is nothing that can't be done by brutes sans-gauntlet just as easily. All it takes is a good taunt aura and an AoE or two. With the aggro cap as low as it is, a good brute can survive a capped spawn almost as easily as a tank. It sort of leads to a feeling of underachievement when you look at a brute and say, "Ok, he just took on the same spawn as me, and killed it three times faster."
What I would like to see is something done to gauntlet that would allow the tank to take better advantage of the fact that they do still have better survivability than most brute or scrappers. I have proposed in the past a buff to gauntlet that works a little bit like defiance, but adds to the tank's aggro cap rather than to his damage. So, on top of the small aoe taunt, each attack would give a boost to the tank's aggro cap for something like 5 seconds. A tank who is sitting around taunting would then have a cap of 17 enemies. A tank who is actively fighting might be mobbed by 20 or 30 at a time instead. The fact that it's on a short timer limits the ability for the tank to map herd. Plus, there's usefulness to the solo player which isn't afforded by the current Gauntlet. |
Mark me down as saying this is brilliant, until I hear something I haven't thought of to shoot it down, of course.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
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The Shield Defense power Grant Cover already does this. It doesn't make sense to give this power free to all tankers. There's also a Leadership Pool power that does a similar thing.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Tanks naturally draw enemies aggro. Attacks are more likely to land on the tank than on nearby team-mates. Tanks automatically grant a 1% bonus to base defense for up to 10 critters for a radius of 20ft.
This means that in large mobs, everybody within space of the tank gains a 10% base defense boost. |
This is also yet another automatic range-based power which would suck another bit of CPU power. We've already got enough of these, adding more is probably a bad idea.
I don't think tanks really need any more beefing up. They already get a second and third inherent -- they're called "tons of hit points" and "the best defenses."
Now, practically speaking, standing next to a tank is a bad idea when fighting certain enemies with AoE damage or stun attacks (Nemesis, Freak Smashers, Tsoo Ancestor Spirits). The few percentage points of defense that the tank would give a blaster or defender would be easily overcome by the multiple AoEs that are dropping on the tank constantly.
The only ATs that would really benefit from this would be scrappers and other tankers. There are serious balance issues involved with this and multiple tankers -- if you have five tankers they all wind up with 40% defense on top of their already fabulous defenses, all for free.
Finally, your intended explanation doesn't add up with the implementation. Granting defense to team mates doesn't increase the chance of the tanker getting hit, it just decreases the chance of the team mate getting hit.
A better description of your intended effect would be: any ranged attack targeting a character within 20 ft of the tank or a melee attack on a character within 8 feet of the tanker has an N% chance of hitting the tanker instead. AoEs would be unaffected.
Or maybe: any mob targeting a character within 20 ft. of a tanker has N% chance of being taunted by the tanker, and will instead attack the tanker. This would give the term "aggro magnet" a literal meaning.
I'm not advocating these implementations -- they have the same CPU problem as the above -- they're just a better match for your intended effect.
The existing mechanisms for aggro -- the taunt, the current Gauntlet and the taunt in auras like those on Fire/ and Ice/ tankers -- require some planning and skill on the part of tanker. This would remove some of that.
And, ultimately, as a tanker I don't want a crowd of squishie team mates cowering near me. They're much safer being at a remove.
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Okay while I agree with your points and your opinions in your post, I have to contend the part I quoted. That's like calling a controllers control an inherent or blasters blasts an inherent. Tanks don't have more hit points than their "high" hit points would indicate they should and there are no defenses that they have for which they don't have to take powers. One doesn't refer to scrappers having the best damage as being an inherent. If one assumes that kind of inherent then we might as well do away with all the inherents which puts us back where we started (except for scrappers which, IIRC, is why they gave all the other ATs inherents as well).|
Originally Posted by Rodion
I don't think tanks really need any more beefing up. They already get a second and third inherent -- they're called "tons of hit points" and "the best defenses."
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Again, that doesn't remotely invalidate your point and I wasn't arguing against it as I do agree with it. I'm merely making sure an inherent flaw in the logic doesn't detract from the actual strength of the primary point.
Robin
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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Once again, you're wrong in multiple senses.|
Originally Posted by Calash
On the other topic that grabbed my interest Masterminds have been the "Tanks" of CoV since it came out. Bodyguard made it easier to draw the aggro to a single point. Brutes have always played as damage dealers more than aggro magnets.
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Tanking is more than simply taking an alpha, which is all that an MM is capable of doing without grabbing a power pool specifically for it. None of the pets actually have a taunt effect. All they have is a higher than normal threat generation number that is there simply to counteract the fact that they're each dealing significantly less damage than any other target making them substantially less likely to actually generate enough threat to steal aggro. MMs have about as much tanking capability as a */regen or */SR Scrapper: decent survivability, but no real threat generation ability beyond "I got to the spawn first".
Brutes have actually got the tools to get and keep aggro beyond the alpha strike. They've got punchvoke and taunt auras. They've got loads of damage to further take advantage of those Taunt effects. A Brute will get aggro if he's actually in the thick of things simply because he's there. An MM will only get and keep the aggro if and only if no one deals more than 125% of the damage than any of his pets, which is actually pretty likely considering.
Secondly, Brutes are actually more survivable in the tanking role than Masterminds. While solo, the MM has an advantage simply because the Brute's primary survivability advantage is derived from external buffs (re: really high caps). On a team, where the tanking role actually exists, the buffs will actually be available (or at least should be, if the team is built and played even remotely intelligently) to allow a Brute to capitalize on the higher caps and base numbers that it has got available.
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What exactly does that provide for the solo player?
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Originally Posted by Basilisk
What I would like to see is something done to gauntlet that would allow the tank to take better advantage of the fact that they do still have better survivability than most brute or scrappers. I have proposed in the past a buff to gauntlet that works a little bit like defiance, but adds to the tank's aggro cap rather than to his damage. So, on top of the small aoe taunt, each attack would give a boost to the tank's aggro cap for something like 5 seconds. A tank who is sitting around taunting would then have a cap of 17 enemies. A tank who is actively fighting might be mobbed by 20 or 30 at a time instead. The fact that it's on a short timer limits the ability for the tank to map herd. Plus, there's usefulness to the solo player which isn't afforded by the current Gauntlet.
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The ability to take on more enemies at once. If you are dealing with large spawns or groups of spawns on your own maps- something I'm sure will be more common with the advanced difficulty settings- you can kill more enemies while under the effect of aura powers like One with the Shield, invincibility, RttC, which self buff, or can wear down more with damage auras in one fight than you could with fewer enemies. Additionally, more enemies means AoE powers provide more total damage per activation, even despite the AoE target cap. I'll admit it's not some massive earth changing thing for the soloist, but it's about one step higher than the "absolutely dick all" that gauntlet affords now
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
What exactly does that provide for the solo player?
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Putting it like that, you have a point. Gauntlet, to a large extent, feels not so much like an inherent but rather as a side effect of Tanker powersets. That doesn't specifically make it bad, but an ACTUAL inherent would be interesting. The fact that Brutes have a smaller version of that AS WELL AS an inherent is why I'm saying this. Yes, Brute "punchvoke" is weaker than Tanker Gauntlet, but Tanker Gauntlet is just as unimpressive as Brute punchvoke at the end of the day. It does seem outdated and ill-refined when put against a lot of the other inherents that do a lot.|
Originally Posted by Calash
I think the real problem is Gauntlet is a simple mechanic developed at the very beginning of when Inherents went into play. When put up next the others it seems almost outdated, even if it does a good job. People like new and flashy abilites.
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Now, I could go into Scrapper Criticals vs. Stalker criticals, but that's a topic for another thread.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Something creeped into my mind on a previous thread, the one about reworking Defenders Negligence inherent. One of the posters said this:
Now, I'm not begrudging that Brutes get gauntlet. They are the aggro holders for Villain side, and without it they would be fairly... well, scrapperish.
I am begrudging that they get the same type of inherent as Tanks, but get something more.
So, I think Tanks should also get something a little more... but what?
Well, lets define what we can't do.
Boost Attack: Um. No. Brutes already get this, and both stalkers and scrappers get criticals. Also, the point of a Tank is to take damage, not deal damage.
Boost Defense: Again... No. Ice tanks can already soft cap smash / lethal def just on SO's alone, and many other defensive types can soft cap using IO's. This would only benefit resistance armors like Fire, Dark, and the upcoming Electrical armor.
Boost Resistance: The Fire and Dark tanks in me scream yes, in that they'd no longer be out-resisted by scrappers. Many of the other tank types, such as Ice, Shield, Willpower, and the upcoming electrical, would also benefit from being able to hard cap their resistances. Only, Stone and Invuln can hard cap resists just on SO's... neverminding what they can do with IO's. So, as inherent that suits all of the available tanking sets... a Resist Boost doesn't quite cut it as an inherent. So, No.
Decrease Endurance Usage: What about borrowing the Defender's negligence idea and decreasing endurance consumption? Well, one of the reasons negligence is called by such a name is that it's dependent on your team running out of health. Since not all defenders can heal, and since they have such low attack power, if the teams health goes low, there's not much they can really do. In the same way, how would a tanks endurance discount work? Would it be tied to team members? Well, then tanks have an inherent that's useless in small teams or while soloing, much like Defenders do. Is it tied to mob size? Like negligence there's just too many variables to make it a simple, reliable, and predictable inherent. Oh yeah, and there's also conserve power in the epic pools already. So. No
Boost Regen Rate: Yeah. Willpower with an even higher regen rate. Not to mention Stones that can top 50 hp per second with just SO's.
Boost Accuracy: Four words : Focussed Accuracy / Melt Armor
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So... pretty much everything that is normally considered a buff... doesn't help out the archtype as a whole. Most "buffs" would only help out a few specific tanks, and / or send other tanks into the truely unkillable territory. Personally, that's not a bad thing, but I don't the devs want to do that.
So, lets reexamine the archtype.
What is a tank supposed to do? A tank is supposed to draw aggro and keep aggro. A tanks job is to take damage. A tank is supposed to protect the team.
So... hows this for a suggestion:
Tanks naturally draw enemies aggro. Attacks are more likely to land on the tank than on nearby team-mates. Tanks automatically grant a 1% bonus to base defense for up to 10 critters for a radius of 20ft.
This means that in large mobs, everybody within space of the tank gains a 10% base defense boost.
Thus even in small teams which run on Challenge levels 2 or 4, Tanks can still provide maximum protection to their teammates. Such a rework would make tanks more beneficial to teams, and give them something extra and above.