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I can confirm for you that Intangibility is its own status affect which is used in powers such as Black Hole and Dimension Shift.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I've been scouring a few different sources to find out what I can about caging powers (Dimension Shift, Black Hole, Sonic Cage,and Detention field) and I've come up with a lot of conflicting information. My basic question is this: is Intangibility a status of its own rather than a combination of the Untouchable status and Only-Affecting Self? If so, why is there a difference when they are effectually the same?
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Detention Field however is not a Phase/Intangibility power and is a Foe Capture (Special) and basically immobilizes a foe, prevents harm against him or by him and also disallows him from affecting allies. The affected foe can still affect themselves.
Sonic Cages as far as I am aware is a Sonic Resonance clone of the above.
Reading the OP it seem's you may be confused between actual Intangibility and Foe Capture (Special) - hope this clears it up for you
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Another way of describing the difference is with this analogy.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I've been scouring a few different sources to find out what I can about caging powers (Dimension Shift, Black Hole, Sonic Cage,and Detention field) and I've come up with a lot of conflicting information. My basic question is this: is Intangibility a status of its own rather than a combination of the Untouchable status and Only-Affecting Self? If so, why is there a difference when they are effectually the same?
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Not all Dogs are German Shepherds.
All German Shepherds are dogs.
Similarily..
Not all Untouchable effects are Intangible/Cage.
All Intangible/Cage effects are Untouchable.
So, why? Aside from power variety and other reasons, Intangible effects tend to affect large groups while Cage effects only affect one target.
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I was aware that Dimension Shift and Sonic Cages are consider an Intangibility and Foe Capture, respectively. I was unclear if there was a mechanical difference between the two though. My confusion arose from information given in Mids' Hero Designer. Under their general descriptions everything is listed correctly. Dimension Shift and Black Hole are both designated as Ranged Aoe, Intangibility while Sonic Cage and Detention Field are both given Ranged, Foe Capture (Special). However, when you examine the effects both are attributed with these three things: immobilize, Untouchable, and Only-Affects Self. This led me to suspect that they were the same status merely under different labels. |
Originally Posted by Twinkle_Boy
I can confirm for you that Intangibility is its own status affect which is used in powers such as Black Hole and Dimension Shift.
Detention Field however is not a Phase/Intangibility power and is a Foe Capture (Special) and basically immobilizes a foe, prevents harm against him or by him and also disallows him from affecting allies. The affected foe can still affect themselves. Sonic Cages as far as I am aware is a Sonic Resonance clone of the above. Reading the OP it seem's you may be confused between actual Intangibility and Foe Capture (Special) - hope this clears it up for you |
Where might I find the correct information on Intangible powers? It seems like all the sources I have encountered are off. City of Data, Mids', and ingame descriptions all report an incorrect magnitude on the immobilize (for PVE, at least). Using the power analyzer and testing against Bosses, EB's, and AV's, the immobilize seems to be 5.3 rather than the 3 listed. Additionally there is the question of intangibility enhancements. The ingame description states that enhancements increase the duration of the intangible phase. My testing shows a consistent phasing of 30 seconds. Mids' suggests that enhancements may affect the magnitude of the intangible, but an unslotted Dimension Shift et al is able to shift AV's and EB's in a single application. (However, AV's during PToD and EB's will still move around due insufficient immobilize magnitude.)
I have noticed one thing that is a bit odd. Intangible foes don't seem to realize they are intangible; they continue to activate attacks. Caged foes, however, simply stand and wait it out.
I greatly appreciate any info that folks can point out.
I think I've heard of it, but I just can't put my finger on it.
@Golden Girl
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Intangible targets can affect themselves, too. I believe the only difference between Intangible and Untouchable + OnlyAffectingSelf is that intangible entities don't have hit boxes (you can walk through them)
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Originally Posted by Twinkle_Boy
I can confirm for you that Intangibility is its own status affect which is used in powers such as Black Hole and Dimension Shift.
Detention Field however is not a Phase/Intangibility power and is a Foe Capture (Special) and basically immobilizes a foe, prevents harm against him or by him and also disallows him from affecting allies. The affected foe can still affect themselves. |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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This. Intangibility is Phasing. Which means inherently, only affecting self and walk-though things with target boxes. Enemies can attack a phased critter, but it won't do anything.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting_Whisper
Intangible targets can affect themselves, too. I believe the only difference between Intangible and Untouchable + OnlyAffectingSelf is that intangible entities don't have hit boxes (you can walk through them)
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Traditional self-phasing is: Intangible + Translucence VFX + Stealth
Phasing attacks are usually: Intangible + Immobile
Untouchable means that others can't affect you, but you can affect others. Sounds unfair, right? Right. That's why Untouchable is usually accompanied by a "Only Affect Self" tag to prevent such abuse. However, being Untouchable and able to attack others can happen such as with Rise of the Phoenix which has 15s of Untouchability (most of that is spent in animation).
Unlike being Intangible where you can be attacked, but it won't do any good, if something is flagged as Untouchable, attacks simply fail to go off.
A self-untouchable power is Hibernate which is accompanied by a "Only Affect Self" tag and immobilization. The short description says it's a 'Self-Hold', but it's not a hold at all.
Attacks which impose Untouchableness are usually accompanied by "Only Affect Self" and immobilization. Such is the case with the powers that have "Foe Capture (Special)" in their short description. 'Foe Capture' is not a status effect in and of itself, it's a particular suite of status affects.
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Not true. You can cage something (which does inflict Untouchable), and still attack it. You'll just get the "Unaffected" float message.
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Originally Posted by Zombie_Man
if something is flagged as Untouchable, attacks simply fail to go off.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Ah, I stand corrected.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting_Whisper
Not true. You can cage something (which does inflict Untouchable), and still attack it. You'll just get the "Unaffected" float message.
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It's different because the foe intangible powers use a magnitude system to determine what does and does not get phased. The phase protection of minions/LTs/Bosses is something on the order of 1/1.3/1.6. Nothing specifically resists the phase, but level scaling will bring the phase magnitude down.
Black Hole, for instance, is a 2.1 magnitude phase (at least I think it is).Against even-level targets, it has no trouble phasing entire groups. Against target 4 levels above the user, however, it does. Against +4s, the effect is at 46% effectiveness, or just above magnitude 1. This is only enough to phase minions. LTs and bosses you hit with it will not become phased.
The phase magnitude of these powers can be increased with Intangibility enhancements.
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That is an interesting if somewhat useless effect. I suppose it is minimally useful in a self-intangible power like Phase Shift though, allowing one to simple run straight through mobs rather than around them.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting_Whisper
Intangible targets can affect themselves, too. I believe the only difference between Intangible and Untouchable + OnlyAffectingSelf is that intangible entities don't have hit boxes (you can walk through them)
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Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
It's different because the foe intangible powers use a magnitude system to determine what does and does not get phased. The phase protection of minions/LTs/Bosses is something on the order of 1/1.3/1.6. Nothing specifically resists the phase, but level scaling will bring the phase magnitude down on the Untouchable and Only-Affecting Self portions of the power.
Black Hole, for instance, is a 2.1 magnitude phase (at least I think it is).Against even-level targets, it has no trouble phasing entire groups. Against target 4 levels above the user, however, it does. Against +4s, the effect is at 46% effectiveness, or just above magnitude 1. This is only enough to phase minions. LTs and bosses you hit with it will not become phased. The phase magnitude of these powers can be increased with Intangibility enhancements. |
Update: I've confirmed that even +6 bosses (tested lvl 27 Lesser Devoured v. lvl 21 troller) will be affected by Untouchable and Only-Affecting Self. The visual, immobilize, and loss of hit box did not apply. I suspect that the duration of the immobilization is made negligible due to the difference in levels so it is applied but I'm simply not noticing it. I'll have to check again after I replace my power analyzer. Please, feel free to test these results as well.
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Dimension Shift is supposed to be applying Mag 3 Intangible for 30s and Mag 3 Immobilze for 30s (and a -100% Threat level) according to City of Data and the in-game Real Numbers for the power.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I just did a little bit of testing of this with my lvl 21 Grav/Storm v. some +4 and +5 Warriors in Talos with some odd results. It seems that Dimension Shift reliably applies the Untouchable and Only-Affect Self status even against +5 Lts, but it did not remove their hit box, cause an effective immobilize, or apply the visual effects. I was able to stand in melee range while the Choppers and Hewers swung away at me. Perhaps, this is due to a higher magnitude.
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I'm surprised their hit box was not walk-through.
I take advantage of the walk-through hit box with Phase powers (which are Intangibility effects) on the Statesman and Lady Grey TF when you have to get buy foes spawned for 8 in narrow hallways... it really helps.
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Well, thanks to everyone's responses and a bit of testing I think I've come to understand the Dimension Power a bit better. It seems to have five components: a reduction in threat level, a magnitude 3 intangible effect (which removes the hit detection box), a magnitude 3 immobilize, an untouchable effect, and an Only-Affecting Self effect. When all of these apply, the target will be immobile, semi-transparent, and the player can pass through them. The target will continue to activate attacks and make hit rolls, but these will not effect the player.
More often than all of these effects not will be applied to the target. The most common thing to see is a target not affected by the immobilize and intangible status. A single application of an unenhanced Dim. Shift will not phase or immobilize a boss. It will, however, affect him with the untouchable and Only-Affecting Self status. To complicate matters, the magnitude of Dim. Shift'ss intangibility and immobilize scale relative to level. For example, when facing a boss -1 to your level, the magnitude of Dim. Shifts intangible and immobilize will be 3.3 and capable of overcoming a boss' immobilize protection.
The most important aspects of Dimension Shift, the untouchable and Only-Affecting Self portions, are much more predictable. As long as the power connects, it will apply these for fixed duration of 30 seconds despite enhancement, difference in level, or enemy rank. These will even affect GM ranked enemies.
I compiled the following data with my lvl 21 grav/storm in Talos to show when the Intangible effect will apply. As noted before, the Untouchable and Only-Affecting Self status applies if the power hits. The first set of data is for an unenhanced intangible and the second is enhanced with a single DO. (I left out the levels that were already affected without the enhancement.)
Unenhanced
+ 0 lvl minion; applying 3.0 intangible; 1.0 protection; -2.0 net; affected
+ 1 lvl minion; applying 2.7 intangible; 1.0 protection; -1.7 net; affected
+ 2 lvl minion; applying 2.4 intangible; 1.0 protection; -1.4 net; affected
+ 3 lvl minion; applying 1.95 intangible; 1.0 protection; -0.95 net; affected
+ 4 lvl minion; applying 1.44 intangible; 1.0 protection; -0.44 net; affected
+ 5 lvl minion; applying .9 intangible; 1.0 protection; 0.1 net; nou affected
+ 0 lvl lt.; applying 3.0 intangible; 2.0 protection; -1 net; affected
+ 1 lvl lt; applying 2.7 intangible; 2.0 protection; -0.4 net; affected
+ 2 lvl lt.; applying 2.4 intangible; 2.0 protection; .05 net; affected
+ 3 lvl lt.; applying 1.95 intangible; 2.0 protection; 0.56 net; not affected
- 1 lvl boss: applying 3.3 intangible; 3.0 protection; -0.3 net; affected
+ 0 lvl boss; applying 3.0 intangible; 3.0 protection; 0 net; not affected
Enhanced with a single DO w/ only lvl considered
Enhanced value = 3.5 magnitude intangible
+ 5 lvl minion; applying 1.04 intangible; 1.0 protection; -.04 net; affected
+ 6 lvl minion; applying 0.525 intangible; 1.0 protection; 0.474 net; not affected
+ 2 lvl lt.; applying 2.8 intangible; 2.0 protection; -0.8 net; affected
+ 3 lvl lt.; applying 2.275 intangible; 2.0 protection; -0.275 net; affected
+ 4 lvl lt.; applying 1.68 intangible; 2.0 protection; 0.32 net; not affected
even lvl boss; applying 3.5 intangible; 3.0 protection; -0.5 net; affected
+ 1 lvl boss; applying 3.15 intangible; 3.0 protection; -0.15 net; affected
+ 2 lvl boss; applying 2.8 intangible; 3.0 protection; 0.2 net; not affected
I would greatly appreciate independent confirmation if anyone is willing to spend a bit of time with it. I assumed, despite Mr. Quizzle's contribution, that protections for minions, lieutenants, and bosses were 1, 2, 3 respectively without an indication that it is so. It seemed to work, but maybe I just happened upon a coincidence. If this happens to be correct, then I may compile it into a guide on Dimension Shift.
I've been scouring a few different sources to find out what I can about caging powers (Dimension Shift, Black Hole, Sonic Cage,and Detention field) and I've come up with a lot of conflicting information. My basic question is this: is Intangibility a status of its own rather than a combination of the Untouchable status and Only-Affecting Self? If so, why is there a difference when they are effectually the same?