The Effect of the I15 'Revamp' on /Psi Doms
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Wow. Some hard work and commitment gone into this. At first glance your stats did strike me as horrific: slower and more costly, and the big hitter castrated? But your subsequent anaysis of returns in gameplay is very encouraging. I'd like to echo all the thanks for this, DC, very much. In the calculations you made, have you included pet damage? Did your Ice/Psi, for example, use Jack frost to accumulate that IPH figure? I ask because the results might be quite different for my dom, who has no pet.
|
However, Hero Stats is limited in being able to tell you exactly how much damage your pets are doing because it works based on the chat messages recorded in your combat log. The game doesn't say "Jack Frost did 252 pts of damage with his Ice Slash" therefore Hero Stats won't record that damage.
Nonetheless, from all the testing I've done over the last couple years I can estimate pet damage contribution at about 20% of the dominator. IIRC I based that number on some pre-pet tests I'd done awhile ago where I compared three different lvl 30 doms (ice, grav and plant) to their lvl 32 and lvl 35 stages. So I could guess at the pet's DPE and DPH contribution using the dom's numbers times 0.20.
Of course this varies by pet and slotting. Also, the patron pet will chip in some damage as well while it's summoned. I can't give you numbers at that one though, but would guess an additional 5%.
With mind and plant the confuse powers play a big role. They do two things: 1) they steal IPH because the confused dmg doesn't count for you and 2) they speed kills and thus increase IPH. So it works out being a wash so long as you have enough AoE damage to score hits and get credit for kills. Plant does that easily with Creepers, Roots, Fly Trap and whatever assault powers. Mind not so much, but mind is confusing fewer targets because of MC's longer recharge.
I know from my old lvl 30-35 tests that the plant/thorn dom was the fastest soloer (IPH and XPH) compared to the grav/nrg and ice/ice because of confusion. Yeah, she lost some xp and infamy from each kill, BUT she moved so much faster through the missions it didn't matter.
Please buff Ice Control.
Okay, I finished analyzing the data for the fire/psi and then the 2 /psi doms side-by-side. Here's what I've got (some of this is recap for those new to the discussion):
From the original analysis, I found average lvl 50 dominator solo performance increased 11% based on reward rate (infamy per hour). My ice/psi/mu dom had one of the largest improvements (+17% IPH), while my fire/psi/mu showed virtually no change (+1% IPH). I wondered why this was the case when both characters were similarly built and enhanced, as well as played using similar tactics and were tested using virtually the same missions. Why should an ice/psi dom improve so much, while a fire/psi dom didnt improve at all? After all, the changes applied by the dom revamp should have boosted both equally at the base level and at the specific /psi powers (both doms use the exact same /psi assault powers).
Before I show the comparative data, I want to summarize the fire/psi numbers. For the record, the I14 tests took this character 55 min to defeat 262 foes with 701 damaging power activations, while the I15 tests required 60 min to defeat 275 foes with 762 damaging power activations. This is about 5 minutes faster than the ice/psi, but also against slightly fewer foes (about 20). Regardless, I find it interesting that BOTH /psi dominators ended up using MORE attacks despite the damage buff with the I15 revamp. This information once again points at the nerf of PSW and begs the question if its the opposite for non /psi doms, who didnt rely on a single heavy hitting AoE for most of their damage pre-I15. Ill have to look at my other 3 tests with my grav/elec, mind/thorn, and earth/fire doms to figure that out.
Anyway, the damage % enhancement values for the fire/psis powers are as follows:
Char 65
Fire Cages 0
Flashfire 0
Hot Feet 73
Psi Dart 0
Mental Blast 94
Mind Probe 100
Subdue 97
Psi Shockwave 99
Ball Lightning 99
Assault +11% to all
Prior to I15, I think you can see its obvious this dominator relied on AoE damage to clear mobs. She would typically lead with Flashfire (AoE stun) to incapacitate target mobs, followed by Fire Cages to immobilize. Then, shed follow the fire imps into melee, hitting PSW, Ball Lightning, and Drain Psyche. Mobs that were still standing were then controlled with Char, Mind Probe and Subdue. PSW and Fire Cages were spammed as soon as they recharged.
The same opening attacks were used following I15. However, because PSW has had its damage scale cut, its recharge and endurance cost nearly doubled, and its range almost halved it doesnt quite do the job it used to. Therefore, as with the ice/psi dominator, this fire/psi increased her reliance on previously underused ST powers (char, mind probe, subdue, mental blast and psi dart).
Please buff Ice Control.
I already posted the links to the results a few posts up, so I’ll just summarize what I learned:
According to the power usage data, the I14 version of this dominator used Char, PSW and Fire Cages as her top 3 powers. That’s because PSW had a fast recharge and did a ton of damage. Combined with Fire Cages, Hot Feet and Fire Imps, nothing lived long enough for the single target attacks to be that necessary.
With the revamp, the top 3 powers used are now Char, Psi Dart, and PSW. Fire Cages, Mental Blast, Mind Probe and Subdue are all relatively close in usage and not far out of 3rd place. Fire Cages and PSW were used about 25% less while Dart rose 104% and Mental Blast increased 73%. As with the ice/psi dom, DESPITE being used less PSW’s total endurance cost actually increased 21% from I14 to I15 leading to a 56% drop in its DPE as well. The nerf to its damage and range also decreased its DPH (damage per hit) by 19%.
The ST attacks of Dart, MB, Subdue, Mind Probe are greater parts of the attack chain now. From what I’ve see with these 2 /psi doms, it’s critical to slot MB and Dart well to maximize their increased usage.
As with the ice dom, this fire dom had an increased reliance on AoE control as evidenced by a 27% increase in Cinders. This is most likely due to PSW’s decreased availability as a semi-reliable AoE stun with its longer recharge and shorter range. Before I15, this dominator could either lead with Flash Fire if it was recharged, or simply eat a luck inspiration and then run into a mob with PSW and Drain Psyche. Now, when FF and PSW are down, Cinders becomes Plan C.
When looking at the endurance data, I’m again amazed to see the increases in the end use from psi dart and mental blast. As with the ice/ps dominator, this is due to a combination of both powers having their end costs boosted, and their greater usage after PSW’s nerf.
Again, I have to wonder if the rebalancing of the /psi set took into account the overall effect that PSW nerfing would have. Yet again there are large discrepancies between MB and Psi Dart’s DPH and DPE numbers. Both powers are doing more damage, boosting their DPH 93 and 75% respectively, but their DPE’s rose only half as much (53 and 30%). Compare those increases to Subdue and Mind Probe, where the /psi dominator is getting much more equal boosts in DPH and DPE. Some of this can be offset by improved slotting, but honestly where are the slots going to come from? And furthermore, I’m going to have to rely on IOs to even out the differences between these four powers (something the game is supposed to not be balanced for).
Overall endurance consumption was up 9% with a slight increase in DPE (7%) as compensation. However, this dominator saw ZERO increase in DPM, which explains why her IPH earning only rose 1%.
Interestingly, despite spending more endurance with the I15 changes, this dominator actually used her endurance boosting powers (drain psyche + power sink) LESS. I believe this is because she was able to activate Domination more often. And that was a result of having to use more attacks to get the missions complete. And that of course, was due to the nerfage of PSW. It’s an odd twisted chain of events, don’t you think? I can’t figure out if Castle and the boys were that wise or just that lucky.
Another interesting development is that following PSW’s reduction in effectiveness, it dropped from this dominator’s #1 damage power to #2. What’s the new #1? Well if you look at raw damage output, it’s Hot Feet. Yep, the PB AoE control power now does more total damage than any of this dom’s other powers. Crazy isn’t it? It was always doing a large amount of damage (second place in I14), but now that PSW has a longer recharge, mobs spend more time in the slow roast of Hot Feet. Two other interesting tidbits about HF is that it has the highest DPE of any power before and after I15 (meaning it’s well worth the cost of running it nonstop so long as you slot endurance reduction). Meanwhile, HF has the 2nd LOWEST DPH. How is that possible? Because it does damage in pulses. Small amounts with each hit, but ones that really add up based on the DPE and DPM numbers. Of course that’s only if you have keep the mobs inside its radius. Which is why Fire Cages along with PB and targeted AoEs are so critical to a fire/ dominator’s success. Long story short, make sure you take and slot up HF.
Lastly, Fire Cages saw a decrease in its usage with I15. Before I ran the tests that wouldn’t have made sense to me considering that PSW was going to be used less. Why wouldn’t you use cages more and get more out of them in return? Well I think the answer is precisely because PSW is used less. Tactically speaking, I would always run into mobs, then spam PSW and cages. I’d toss in the odd single target attack, but always I’d hit the AoEs. Now with I15, I charge in, hit PSW and cages. But now, PSW isn’t right back up to spam again. So I’d switch over to single target powers: Mind Probe, Subdue, Dart, Mental Blast. Then, PSW was up again. So I’d hit it. By then, mobs were dead. No need for more cages.
A different strategy, but the same results. Which leads me to the comparison with the ice/psi dominator in an attempt to answer my first question of why the big difference in IPH between the 2 dominators?
Please buff Ice Control.
I compared these 2 /psi doms in 6 major areas:
Power Activations – what damage powers/categories did they use and how often under the I15 revamp conditions? They were both affected by the changes the same, weren’t they?
Target Hits – sure power activations can be similar, but what about what’s most important… did you hit and how many? If maps and mob sizes are similar enough, then there should be little difference between the 2 doms.
Change in Power Use – both doms use the same /psi assault powers and the same basic tactics, so shouldn’t they have changed their usage of powers in similar ways from I14 to I15?
Change in Endurance Expenditure – as with the power usage change, shouldn’t they be spending endurance in the same ways as they adjust from I14 to I15?
Change in DPE – if builds, maps, mobs and tactics were similar, shouldn’t the change in DPE from I14 to I15 be similar?
Change in DPH – as with the DPE changes, I’d expect these numbers to be similar for the single target attacks. AoE attacks will depend on how many targets were hit, though and that depends on a number of factors like terrain, mob size, control ability, targeting, character position, etc.
Looking at the power activation data, both dominators used their single target holds more than any other damaging attack after the I15 revamp. Of the seven attacks analyzed, the ice/psi used six of them more than the fire/psi, yet both dominators finished with nearly identical IPH ratings. The data suggest the ice/psi was able to close the ‘gap’ with the fire/psi. But the gap from where? Both doms used their bread and butter PSW attack less than with I14. And both doms increased their other attacks to compensate. So why more for the ice/psi? And did this lead to the ice/psi’s increased performance gain?
My answer is that the fire/psi had hit a performance ceiling already before the I15 revamp. She was already capped at the IPH max on these missions at this difficulty setting. That explains why this character saw virtually no increase in IPH from I14 to I15 while not only did the ice/psi dom improve, but the other 3 dominators tested all improved with the revamp.
What sort of cap am I referring to? I liken it to a prize fighter, who, at the peak of performance, is able to knock out their opponent with a single punch (this is analogous to about 2000 DPM). It doesn’t matter if this fighter gets stronger (>2000 DPM). They can’t knock out an opponent with less than one punch. Meanwhile, the ice/psi dominator was also a prize fighter, but not quite as good (1700 DPM) as the fire/psi. Therefore, she used to take 2 punches to knock out the same opponent. With I15, the ice/psi got stronger (2000 DPM) and reduced that fight to a single punch. She is now the equivalent of the fire/psi. She, too, has hit the earning cap of approximately 2 million IPH.
But why does the cap exist? Shouldn’t more damage = more earning. Well yes, more damage does = more potential, but the earning is capped at THESE SETTINGS. That’s because regardless of how much DPM a character can throw out, it is still limited by how fast their powers animate, how many foes are standing in front of it and how long it takes to travel from one mob to the next. Prior to I15, the fire/psi dom could activate X powers and defeat a mob. Even with the I15 boost, she still needed X powers because X was enough to defeat the mob. The ice/psi dominator used to need X + Y. Now she, too, only needs X because Y was included with the I15 revamp.
The evidence for this comes mostly from the AoE powers. First, when you look at the usage of 2 AoEs (Drain Psyche and Ball Lightning) that were untouched or minimally touched by the I15 revamp, there is virtually no difference between the I14 and I15 numbers (Power Sink doesn’t contradict this conclusion because in my opinion its usage decreased due to an increase in Domination’s usage with the increases in single target attacks). For DP, the fire/psi’s usage changed +3% and the ice/psi’s usage -2%. For BL, the fire/psi’s usage changed +5% and the ice/psi’s usage +9%. This indicates that both doms’ standard opening attack chain of AoE Control > PSW > Ball Lightning > DP did not alter significantly from I14 to I15.
Second, when looking at PSW, the nerf to its recharge lowered its usage significantly and increased the usage of single target attacks as previously discussed. The result was that PSW went from being fired every 25 seconds to every 37 seconds by the fire/psi while it went from every 20 seconds to every 27 seconds by the ice/psi.
The effect of this change in power usage resulted in the IPH earning rates. Looking at the I14 data, the fire/psi dominator was the top earner with 2.06 million IPH. Meanwhile, the ice/psi was the 2nd fastest earner with 1.80 million IPH. After the I15 revamp, the fire/psi only increased 1% to 2.07 million IPH while the ice/psi jumped 17% to 2.10 million IPH.
My first assumption was that the difference in performance gains was connected to the greater frequency of PSW’s use by the ice/psi with I15. However, that CANNOT be the reason because the fire/psi was clearly better during I14 when even back then she used PSW less frequently, and furthermore she’s seeing no drop in performance despite using it even less now.
So instead, I asked the question why would the fire/psi dom be using PSW less anyway? Both doms’ PSW is nearly equally slotted for damage and recharge. Both use it as a staple part of their attack chain. The only explanation I could come up with that fit the data was that the fire/psi didn’t NEED to use PSW more. Mobs were dying fast enough without it, whereas the ice/psi did need to use PSW more to kill the same mobs.
So where does the fire/psi’s extra damage come from? Most assuredly Hot Feet and Fire Imps. Those two powers are putting out more damage than the ice/psi’s 4x damage proc’d Arctic Air and Jack Frost. Not a huge amount more, about 10 - 15% extra though.
Looking at the Hit Data supports this hypothesis as well. These data show that overall the ice/psi actually hit more targets with 6 of her 7 damaging attacks than the fire/psi. Most significant is the difference between PSW hits. The ice/psi dom hit 31% more targets with PSW than the fire/psi. This is a large difference despite both doms having similar accuracies, playstyles, tactics and builds. As a result of that, one would guess that the ice/psi should be earning more IPH.
However, if you consider the ‘need’ option as stated above, it fits with the idea that the fire/psi dom did not NEED to use PSW as much. That she was able to get more damage from other sources like HF and Imps to compensate.
Taking all this information together, I envision the scenario is like this:
A Fire/Psi dominator sees a group of 5 mobs ahead. She opens with Flashfire and Fire Cages. Imps charge in and start attacking. She follows them in, hitting PSW, BL and DP. She decides what power to use next and likely skips PSW because 3 of the 5 mobs are already dead. So she switches to single target attacks and finishes the battle as the imps and hot feet melt more foes.
Meanwhile, an Ice/Psi dominator sees a similar group of 5 mobs. She opens with Flash Freeze or Ice Slick, then charges in. Jack follows and focuses his attacks on a single foe. The dom uses PSW, BL and DP. She decides what power to use next. Because all 5 mobs are still standing, or maybe 4, she uses a couple ST attacks while her AoEs recharge. PSW is recharged, so she uses it again. Maybe her damage procs fire and help kill someone. Maybe Jack has finished his target and is beating on another. Either way, she has to use a couple more single target attacks unti the mobs are all dead.
Now along comes the I15 revamp. Same scenarios as above. The fire/psi dom is killing mobs as fast as before. However, now the ice/psi dom is dropping her mobs even faster. As fast as the fire/psi. Now they’re both moving from mob to mob at the same speed. End result: fire/psi sees no change as she’s already at performance cap. Ice/Psi improves, hitting the performance cap.
The only question remaining for me is what will happen when I16 is released and I can increase the difficulty setting and raise the ceiling for these dominators?
Please buff Ice Control.
Honestly, I think everyone knows PSW was ridiculously overpowered or "out of line", "out of equation". If you weren't /psi Dom, you were seen as gimping yourself. Hell, I have a lvl 50 Plant/Psi and lvl 43 Ice/Psi so I know how good PSW is.
That's great data DarkCurrent.
I just haven't respec my old /psi toons to experience the new effects. I never slot Psi Dart and I never took Mind Blast (takes too long for my taste and low damage).
The higher endurance cost could be offset by having Drained Psyche?
Can you do similar studies on Merc MM? I am so tired of reading/hearing people say Merc sucks. On paper, Thug and Robot > Merc because Merc's aoe controls are very inconsistent.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Can you do similar studies on Merc MM? I am so tired of reading/hearing people say Merc sucks. On paper, Thug and Robot > Merc because Merc's aoe controls are very inconsistent.
|
Besides that, Thugs and Robots both have +DEF which makes them harder to kill and gives them more of a lifespan, and more reaction time for you to support them. Merceneries only have RES, and it's limited. Mercs die very easily and their only response is a medic who heals, but his reaction time is slow. Mercs don't have enough damage or tricks to really fit anything.
If you look at units in how durable they are, it comes down to basically:
1) Robots
2) Thugs
3) Zombies
4) Mercs
5) Ninjas
In terms of damage, they're outdone by Thugs, Robots, and probably Ninjas (assuming they stay alive).
In terms of mezzes/debuffs, they lose to Zombies and Ninjas, and even then don't really have much to offer over what Thugs and Robots do.
It's hard to say what their role is supposed to be. They don't really excel at durability, damage, or mez/debuff. They just sort of exist. Ninjas have a similar issue, as they're very squishy (they have DEF, but not enough of it, and no RES to back it up) and their mez/debuff is fairly limited.
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
They are. They're also only mag 2. Long recharge, only capable of working on minions, and random usage is not very reliable.
Besides that, Thugs and Robots both have +DEF which makes them harder to kill and gives them more of a lifespan, and more reaction time for you to support them. Merceneries only have RES, and it's limited. Mercs die very easily and their only response is a medic who heals, but his reaction time is slow. Mercs don't have enough damage or tricks to really fit anything. If you look at units in how durable they are, it comes down to basically: 1) Robots 2) Thugs 3) Zombies 4) Mercs 5) Ninjas In terms of damage, they're outdone by Thugs, Robots, and probably Ninjas (assuming they stay alive). In terms of mezzes/debuffs, they lose to Zombies and Ninjas, and even then don't really have much to offer over what Thugs and Robots do. It's hard to say what their role is supposed to be. They don't really excel at durability, damage, or mez/debuff. They just sort of exist. Ninjas have a similar issue, as they're very squishy (they have DEF, but not enough of it, and no RES to back it up) and their mez/debuff is fairly limited. |
Ok, which one has more "annoying" knockbacks? Robot or Merc! I use M3 Grenade to add more knockbacks and that's my role = knockbacks!
I agree Merc doesn't stand out enough, the same way Martial Arts is now.
Of the 5 sets, I think Ninja has the most issues but it's just me. I think their damage output is greatly affected by whether Jounins are at melee range or not.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Honestly, I think everyone knows PSW was ridiculously overpowered or "out of line", "out of equation". If you weren't /psi Dom, you were seen as gimping yourself. Hell, I have a lvl 50 Plant/Psi and lvl 43 Ice/Psi so I know how good PSW is.
That's great data DarkCurrent. I just haven't respec my old /psi toons to experience the new effects. I never slot Psi Dart and I never took Mind Blast (takes too long for my taste and low damage). The higher endurance cost could be offset by having Drained Psyche? Can you do similar studies on Merc MM? I am so tired of reading/hearing people say Merc sucks. On paper, Thug and Robot > Merc because Merc's aoe controls are very inconsistent. |
Regarding MM studies, I only have one lvl 50 Ninja/TA, so I have nothing to compare it to. Your question would better be directed to the devs or a player who loves MMs and has a bunch they can compare statistically.
However, even if you had the characters to test, you would be missing a lot of data because pet statistics aren't logged by HeroStats because your chat log doesn't have them. So the best you could do would be to say if MM X was 'faster' than Y. Digging into the numbers to provide an answer would be a whole lot of guessing.
Only way I can think to make note of the pet damage contribution would be to record demos/videos of all the missions and looking at the damage numbers after the fact.
Please buff Ice Control.
Having 3 ways to buff endurance on these toons makes the increased end usage a nonfactor. I can't say if that's true for other builds that don't have DP and PS.
Regarding MM studies, I only have one lvl 50 Ninja/TA, so I have nothing to compare it to. Your question would better be directed to the devs or a player who loves MMs and has a bunch they can compare statistically. However, even if you had the characters to test, you would be missing a lot of data because pet statistics aren't logged by HeroStats because your chat log doesn't have them. So the best you could do would be to say if MM X was 'faster' than Y. Digging into the numbers to provide an answer would be a whole lot of guessing. Only way I can think to make note of the pet damage contribution would be to record demos/videos of all the missions and looking at the damage numbers after the fact. |
I see.
So how do devs evaluate MM's performance? I know Thug performs well. I made one and I can immediately tell Thug > Merc. I am a major Merc fan and I have to add a lot of proc/sets to make it "competitive". I don't think my Merc/Storm's damage is low but I have a feeling Thug/Storm can perform better.
And in a lot of ways, how the players perceive is very important too because even if Stalkers don't "underperform", most players perceive them as less team-friendly or adding nothing special to the team. Many MM players perceive Merc as nothing special and border-line low damage (mostly lethal).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I presume the devs have way more tools for measuring performance than players do. I imagine they have access to every available stat and then some. I mean certainly the game runs the same kind of numbers on pet attacks as with players', it's just that it doesn't report them to us.
However, even without the specific pet data, you could get some decent information on MM performance using HeroStats.
Off the top of my head, you can compare:
- infamy and/or xp gain (how fast are you killing foes and clearing missions?)
- injuries you sustained (how much incoming damage are you taking?)
- number of pet summonings (useful if pets keep getting killed or are tough as nails)
- amount of healing you do (are you and pets taking a lot of damage?)
- inspiration use (are you feeding your pets a lot of purples, greens and oranges as opposed to reds, yellows?)
- your personal attack usage (do you have time to fire your attacks because pets are steamrolling, or are you using them as a last resort because your pets just got wiped out?)
- your buff/debuff usage (are you spending more time on offense or defense?)
If you want to know what individual pets are doing, then there are 2 ways I can think to accomplish that:
First, record and review video/demos to figure out pet activity. I think you could get some decent info out of that, especially if your MM does NOT attack. Then, you'd be able to see what pets are doing what damage and how often. It'd be painstaking to go back and forth on those videos though, and you'd have to handwrite most of the stats while you're doing so.
Second, you could use HeroStats but run mission sets where you compare different levels of summonings:
Mission Set 1: MM and no pets
Mission Set 2: minion pets only
Mission Set 3: lieutenant pets only
Mission Set 4: boss pet only
Mission Set 5: pet combo 1 (minion +lieu)
Mission Set 6: pet combo 2 (minion +boss)
Mission Set 7: pet combo 3 (lieu +boss)
Mission Set 8: pet combo 4 (min +lieu + boss)
The overall data would then tell you how much each pet affects your baseline numbers, and then how each combo synergizes with you and one another.
But that'd be a heck of a lot of testing. And it'd tell you only about a single MM. You'd then have to repeat the tests with other MMs that have identical buff sets to be able to say, "yeah, robots are better than thugs because the lieutenant pets do A, B, C as measured by a boost in my performance in X, Y, Z areas".
I tremble in pain just thinking about the number crunching that'd take.
Please buff Ice Control.
Maybe this is why the dev had to get rid of +recharge in pets as they can't track that kind of performance.
I just compare based on my own experience like how often I need to resummon and how much babysitting I need to do.
Ninjas are definitely on the low-end in terms of efficiency. I constantly use Smoke Flash to increase damage and goto Jounins when they are not in melee range. What I get in return is only a bit more overall damage than ... say Thugs?
I mean how many aoe attacks does Enforcer have? 3 or 4? Spec-Ops have none. Spec-Ops have two really long-recharge mez powers and a 30s web grenade and a melee stun.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
This is all very interesting but as far as most people playing Doms it places too much focus on how much damage they can do as opposed to what their main job is which is locking down mobs and providing mitigation. I tried maxing out the damage to my lvl 50 Mind/Psi Dom after the I15 changes by taking all the single target attacks and slotting them up but found that it required giving up too much control all in an effort to be a mini-Corruptor when I still wasn't doing as much damage as a Corr. Even when soloing it's often better to concentrate on mezzing the mobs and then attacking or you will just run out of End or Health points by trying to make doing damage your top priority. Also most people without optimally IO'ed out builds will have trouble fitting in both Mental Blast and Subdue, not to mention also trying to find room for Psionic Lance, because the powers are nearly identical now and either you will be on team with people who have better attacks than you so you won't really need them both or if soloing will again be using up all your End with an attack chain that is too long to be useful for a Dom.
So of course as far as how most people play Doms they probably won't see anything like the kind of increases in damage mentioned here and in the case of Mind/Psi Doms will either break even or possibly lose ground slightly.
This is all very interesting but as far as most people playing Doms it places too much focus on how much damage they can do as opposed to what their main job is which is locking down mobs and providing mitigation. I tried maxing out the damage to my lvl 50 Mind/Psi Dom after the I15 changes by taking all the single target attacks and slotting them up but found that it required giving up too much control all in an effort to be a mini-Corruptor when I still wasn't doing as much damage as a Corr.
|
Corr damage scale: 0.75
Dom damage scale: ~1.00 (0.95 ranged, 1.05 melee)
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
There's a lot more that goes into it besides base damage like the fact that they have more AOE's that can be fired from a distance (and thus take less time to use since you don't have to run into and out of melee as much) Plus with their inherent which doubles their damage Corruptors just tend to get the majority of kills anyway. I haven't actually played very many Corrs red side to very high levels but when I team with one they always seem to do more damage than Doms present.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Ok, the MM comparison discussion is fairly off-topic, but really couldn't resist posting/asking about this:
Regarding MM studies, I only have one lvl 50 Ninja/TA, so I have nothing to compare it to. Your question would better be directed to the devs or a player who loves MMs and has a bunch they can compare statistically.
However, even if you had the characters to test, you would be missing a lot of data because pet statistics aren't logged by HeroStats because your chat log doesn't have them. So the best you could do would be to say if MM X was 'faster' than Y. Digging into the numbers to provide an answer would be a whole lot of guessing. Only way I can think to make note of the pet damage contribution would be to record demos/videos of all the missions and looking at the damage numbers after the fact. |
Are these not recorded in the log (I have no idea where it is saved, so no clue where to look), or are they simply overlooked by HeroStats? If the latter, it shouldn't be too hard to write a script or simple app in your language of choice to pull out the relevant info.
Example (copied from ingame after telling the Medic "Corporal Gamma" to attack a group of level 15ish Luddites in Cap Au Diable):
WARNING: SPAM!
Corporal Gamma: HIT Luddite Brawler! Your Frag Grenade power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 94.04.
Corporal Gamma: HIT Luddite Hacker! Your Frag Grenade power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 81.60.
Corporal Gamma: HIT Luddite Friar! Your Frag Grenade power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 43.92.
Corporal Gamma: HIT Luddite Slasher! Your Frag Grenade power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 92.43.
Corporal Gamma: HIT Luddite Brawler! Your Frag Grenade power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 59.04.
Corporal Gamma: Medic hits Luddite Brawler with their Frag Grenade for 68.12 points of smashing damage!
Corporal Gamma: Medic hits Luddite Brawler with their Frag Grenade for 106.44 points of lethal damage!
Corporal Gamma: Medic knocks Luddite Brawler off their feet with their Frag Grenade.
Corporal Gamma: Medic hits Luddite Friar with their Frag Grenade for 68.12 points of smashing damage!
Corporal Gamma: Medic hits Luddite Friar with their Frag Grenade for 106.44 points of lethal damage!
Corporal Gamma: Medic knocks Luddite Friar off their feet with their Frag Grenade.
Corporal Gamma: Medic hits Luddite Brawler with their Frag Grenade for 68.12 points of smashing damage!
Corporal Gamma: Medic hits Luddite Brawler with their Frag Grenade for 106.44 points of lethal damage!
Corporal Gamma: Medic knocks Luddite Brawler off their feet with their Frag Grenade.
Corporal Gamma: Medic hits Luddite Slasher with their Frag Grenade for 68.12 points of smashing damage!
Corporal Gamma: Medic hits Luddite Slasher with their Frag Grenade for 106.44 points of lethal damage!
Corporal Gamma: Medic knocks Luddite Slasher off their feet with their Frag Grenade.
Corporal Gamma: Medic hits Luddite Hacker with their Frag Grenade for 68.12 points of smashing damage!
Corporal Gamma: Medic hits Luddite Hacker with their Frag Grenade for 106.44 points of lethal damage!
Corporal Gamma: Medic knocks Luddite Hacker off their feet with their Frag Grenade.
Corporal Gamma: Medic uses their Stimulant to protect Rewired of Norb from Immobilization, Sleep, Disorient, Hold, Fear or Confuse effects.
Corporal Gamma: Luddite Brawler MISSES! Crossbow power had a 5.00% chance to hit, but rolled a 50.98.
P.S. Turns out there's a typo in the Medic's text for the receiver: Medic protects you from IImmobilization, Sleep, Disorient, Hold, Fear or Confuse effects with a Stimulant.
If these are indeed saved to disc, I wouldn't mind writing a script to parse them out, but I only have a single lvl 50 MM so would need someone else with multiple MMs of a similar killing style to generate the logs.
- Norb
Hmm... i'll have to look into that, Norbby. I know that HeroStats used to not record pet stats because the game didn't report them. It's possible both were added in the last few months and I just haven't paid attention.
If you're right, then the only thing I'd have to do is make sure I'm logging the pet numbers with one of my chat channels and that HS is looking for them.
Please buff Ice Control.
Okay, just tested the pet stats thing. Yes, HeroStats does record some of their numbers! It's a bit sketchy, though and can get confusing if you don't know what you're looking for as pseudo pets numbers are also recorded.
I didn't have my pet stats showing up in my chat windows as it's not the default and I don't play MMs.
Too bad I didn't realize this before my tests!
Please buff Ice Control.
There's a lot more that goes into it besides base damage like the fact that they have more AOE's that can be fired from a distance (and thus take less time to use since you don't have to run into and out of melee as much) Plus with their inherent which doubles their damage Corruptors just tend to get the majority of kills anyway. I haven't actually played very many Corrs red side to very high levels but when I team with one they always seem to do more damage than Doms present.
|
Corruptor seems to do a lot of damage when the target's health is low and a lot of it is overkill.
What corr is good for is against AVs because their 10-20% health left is quite a bit.
In fact, a lot of corrs put +damage buff like Forge on Brute, when it is more beneficial on Stalker or Dominator.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Okay, just tested the pet stats thing. Yes, HeroStats does record some of their numbers! It's a bit sketchy, though and can get confusing if you don't know what you're looking for as pseudo pets numbers are also recorded.
I didn't have my pet stats showing up in my chat windows as it's not the default and I don't play MMs. Too bad I didn't realize this before my tests! |

What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Here are the data from my other 3 lvl 50 dominators that I compared the differences in performance from I14 to the I15 revamp. Im including them here as both a reference point for the /psi analysis discussed earlier in this thread, and for completeness. Overall, Im now calling this study The Effect of the I15 Revamp on Lvl 50 Dominator Performance.
*Some of the changes show apparently drastic shifts in usage. However, most of these are due to the power going from barely used to used a little. An example is Mass Hypnosis for the mind/thorn dominator. To sort out the real changes from the faux ones, make sure and look at the Power Usage Comparison data as well as the change data.
1) Earth/Fire/Mace
Power Usage Change
Endurance Expenditure Change
Damage Output Change
Power Use Comparison
Endurance Expenditure Comparison
DPM Comparison
DPE Comparison
DPH Comparison
2) Grav/Elec/Mu
Power Usage Change
Endurance Expenditure Change
Damage Output Change
Power Use Comparison
Endurance Expenditure Comparison
DPM Comparison
DPE Comparison
DPH Comparison
3) Mind/Thorn/Mace
Power Usage Change
Endurance Expenditure Change
Damage Output Change
Power Use Comparison
Endurance Expenditure Comparison
DPM Comparison
DPE Comparison
DPH Comparison
Ill break down each dominators performance shift and summarize the entire study once I've had time to really look it over.
Please buff Ice Control.
Looks like on average, Damage Per Minute and overall damage has improved. It seems like /Elec has the least amount of improvement except for Static Discharge. Thunderstrike and Havoc Punch perform worse.
A pretty major improvement in /Thorn.
Good job.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Here's my analysis of these 3 dominators' performance change from I14 to I15:
1) Earth/Fire/Mace
Before looking at this dominators numbers in detail, here are the changes that I15 brought to /fiery assault:
- Flares: Decreased this power's damage scale from 1.0 to 0.878, increased its recharge from 2.2 seconds to 3 seconds and increased its endurance cost from 3.69 to 4.37.
- Incinerate: Increased this power's DoT damage scale from 1.81 to 2.12, increased its recharge from 8 seconds to 10 seconds and increased its endurance cost from 8.53 to 10.2.
- Fire Blast: Increased this power's direct damage component damage scale from 1 to 1.64, increased its recharge from 4 to 8 seconds and increased its endurance cost from 5.2 to 8.53.
- Combustion: Decreased this power's damage over time component damage scale from 1.2 to .8, increased its recharge from 15 seconds to 17 seconds and its endurance cost from 13 to 16.
- Blazing Bolt: Increased this power's direct damage component damage scale from 2.12 to 3.56, increased its recharge from 12 seconds to 20 seconds and its endurance cost from 14.4 to 18.5.
- Blaze: Increased this power's direct damage component damage scale from 2.12 to 2.28, increased its recharge from 10 seconds to 12 seconds and its endurance cost from 10.4 to 11.9.
However, diminishing the excitement of that finding is the endurance expenditure data. The changes show increased endurance costs for all of the altered fiery assault powers. In other words, despite using fewer attacks, this dominator spent MORE endurance for Blaze, Blazing Bolt, Fire Blast, Flares and Incinerate. The result was mostly felt by Blaze, which had a 13% decrease in Damage per Endurance (DPE). The other fiery assault powers showed mostly increases in DPE although none were beyond the 30% boost to BASE dominator damage. Therefore, taken as a whole, the set received a nerfed buff because while this /fire dom is doing more damage, and using fewer attacks, hes also paying more end for those attacks and their DPE boost is less than the ATs base 30% boost with the movement of dominations damage to full-time.
On a positive note, Damage per Hit was improved for most attacks. Of special note is the damage output of Fire Blast, which experienced a near doubling of its DPH.
Oh, and Blazing Bolt does phenomenal damage now. If youre going with a ranged dominator build like this one, I highly recommend it. Especially BB after poisonous ray + fiery embrace and you get the Mantis Sting proc to fire. Ouch.
To conclude, Im not sure why /fiery assault had to be scaled back as much as it did to accommodate the I15 revamp. My testing with the set (this earth/fire and a plant/fire) before and after the I15 revamp has shown it to be an average performer with regard to IPH earning. I imagine there are some combos that would do better, but so far my /psi wielders are the kings and that set received an overall BOOST. I think the devs need to look at the end costs of these powers again and trim them some.
2) Grav/Elec/Mu
Before looking at this dominators numbers in detail, here are the changes that I15 brought to /electric assault:
- Charged Brawl: Reduced this power's damage scale from 1.96 to 1.32, reduced its recharge from 10 seconds to 6 seconds and reduced its endurance cost from 10.2 to 6.86.
- Havoc Punch: Reduced this power's damage scale from 2.6 to 1.96, reduces its recharge from 14 seconds to 10 seconds and reduced its endurance cost from 16.4 to 10.19.
- Zapp: Increased this power's damage scale from 2.76 to 3.56, increased its recharge from 12 seconds to 20 seconds and increased its endurance cost from 14.4 to 18.51.
- Thunder Strike: Decreased the damage scale of single target portion of this power from 2.56 to 2.04, reduced its recharge from 20 seconds to 16 seconds and reduced its endurance cost from 18.5 to 15.2. Reduced the area of effect portion of this power's damage scale from .42 to .31.
Oddly, although the 3 melee attacks all had their recharge lowered, 2 of them were used less often than during I14. Some of this can be attributed to the increase DPE and DPH of the ranged attacks, but I think moreso from the increased use of AoEs and their resulting damage. In other words, this dominator was able to defeat mobs successfully at range following the opening control move (worm hole or gravity distortion field), and didnt have to rely on as much melee damage.
However, looking at the melee attacks DPHs shows a disappointing drop in performance for all 3 despite the dominators base damage increase. Its sad to see a set that was once considered the dominator melee king has fallen backward into the pack with the other assault sets. I think similar to /fiery assault, too much was taken from this set to bring it in line with the others.
The most positive data from this dominators testing is in the endurance department. As a whole, end costs were down or commensurate with increased power usage. This resulted in increases in DPE for EVERY attack power, the only dominator tested to exhibit this.
3) Mind/Thorn/Mace
Before looking at this dominators numbers in detail, here are the changes that I15 brought to /thorny assault:
- Skewer: Increased this power's damage scale from 1.64 to 1.96, increased its recharge from 8 to 10 and increased its endurance cost from 8.53 to 10.192.
- Thorn Burst: Increased this power's damage scale from .9 to .95, increased its recharge from 3 to 5 and increased its endurance cost from 4.37 to 6.032.
- Impale: Increased this power's damage scale from 1.32 to 1.64, increased its recharge from 6 seconds to 8 seconds and increased its endurance cost from 6.86 to 8.53.
Why would the dominator use more controls after the I15 revamp? Was he more threatened, throwing out controls while battling for his life?
I think actually quite the opposite. Looking at the damage numbers shows that DPM, DPE and DPH were up for every assault power. To me, this means the higher damage led to faster defeats led to increase time and opportunity for control usage.
Another positive result is that endurance expenditures were down for most assault powers, meaning he was able to defeat the same enemies as with I14, but using fewer attacks and less endurance. This is evidenced by solid gains in DPE for most attacks.
I think theres one power that could use a boost after looking at this data. Ripper. When compared to Skewer, Ripper the tier 9 assault is actually doing less DPE and DPH. Im not sure if this is because Ripper is a narrow cone, but on a per target basis, Skewer is hitting harder..
In conclusion, this /thorns dominator showed improvement in all areas with the I15 revamp. Despite that, he still finished in last place with regard to infamy earnings. I dont know exactly why that is considering his vast arsenal of attacks. But comparing the average overall DPM from all the dominators on the same graph (data not shown) shows that hes in last place.
Why is the big question? I think the answer lies in two areas: pets and procs. As a mind dominator, he has no lvl 32 pet. And while confusion can make anything into a pet, casting that power takes time and the resulting pet has unpredictable behavior, making its contribution to DPM sketchy at best. Meanwhile the other 4 doms have dedicated lvl 32 pets. Previous studies Ive done has put pet dmg contribution at about 20% of the dominators depending on the pet. Clearly, confused pets dont offer that level of damage contribution.
The issue of proc damage contribution is also important. The ice/, earth/ and grav/ doms are making extensive use of multiple damage procs in powers that would otherwise do minimal or no damage (Artic Air, Crushing Field, Earthquake, etc). I cant put a solid % dmg contribution on these procs, but 10% would be a fair estimate. This mind/thorn dominator has no dmg procs in his build, so therefore hes easily 10% behind the doms that are procd up.
Combined with the lack of reliable pet damage explains why hes lagging behind. While I cant do anything about the pet issue (he does have his veteran pet), I can go over his build and see about squeezing in some damage procs in powers like Total Domination, Terrify, Fling Thorns, and Thorn Burst.
Please buff Ice Control.
Wow. Some hard work and commitment gone into this. At first glance your stats did strike me as horrific: slower and more costly, and the big hitter castrated? But your subsequent anaysis of returns in gameplay is very encouraging. I'd like to echo all the thanks for this, DC, very much. In the calculations you made, have you included pet damage? Did your Ice/Psi, for example, use Jack frost to accumulate that IPH figure? I ask because the results might be quite different for my dom, who has no pet.
My Mind/Psi has hit 50 and hasn't fried anyone's brains in anger since before these readjustments, but I do remember it was hard work hauling her through the levels. The one saving grace that held off deletion was the almost perma-Domination from Psionic Dart. Even with that gone, it seems from your findings that Mind/Psi might be less frustrating in the early game, if you can keep endurance under control.
Having said that, I do feel a little uncomfortable about Mind/Psi losing something of it's "speciality" in the late game. With no pet, and with a lot of the late game enemy groups having hardcases resisting Mind Control more easily, the Mind/Psi combo really did need that whopping smack from Psychic Shockwave.
I'm curious to know how anyone has found their Mind/Psi operating since the changes, at both lower and upper levels.