Quote:
Except to stalkers that constantly AS you, run off till stealthed then repeat. Which have killed the stone tank I dumped 900 million influence in sets on several times. The lack of mobility, even when you have the clunky to use and slow to animate teleport, will get you dead. For survivability without a doubt stone armor is king. For playability without being annoyed senseless, WP is without a doubt king. Want to fix WPs aggro issues? Get melt armor and six slot it with a taunt set. Nuff said.
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Originally Posted by Alabaster12
If you're insistent on which one is the "toughest" then the answer is simple. A stone tank is by far the toughest a character can get in this game. It's not even a question since even with IO's it's impossible to be as tough as a well built stone tank. You quite frankly will be invincible.
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Debt is temporary, prestige is forever
My Screenies and Videos :: My Toon List
But that has little to do with stone armor, but he thing called PVroflmaoP.
(my first day in pvp, getting 4shot by a bunch of stalkers, pathetic).
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My first time in PvP on my DA, got AS'd, laughed myself silly, then chased down a grav/ice dom that thought I would be an easy target, he ran and hit hibernate a few times before running back into villain base. Made one of them "OP" psy doms crap himself and run for cover as well. Started getting jumped by groups of 4 or so and said screw it and went back to PvE.
Last time I took my stoner in there, well, yeah, we won't talk about that.
Again, nothing to do with the topic at hand, just thought it was funny.........
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
More importantly if you want to soft cap stone's defense and build for Regen you further sacrifice your builds offensive potential, falling further behind a WP tank in that respect.
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Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Granite-Speed-Tank Level 50 Magic Tanker
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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Eww. Mids output for the old forums is just fugly here.
And the boards don't particularly like Mids' uber-long DataLinks. The link in there now is a TinyURL of the same thing.
Don't mind the particular ORDER of the powers. This was just a throw-together.
With this build, YES, there's a lot of mitigation for Granite's weaknesses (Primarily recharge). However, I challenge you to tell me it's really giving anything up.
Decent Damage (Half the attacks are at ~90% augmentation, the other half are at 99%).
Excellent Accuracy (equivalent to two L50 common IOs)
Excellent Regen
Excellent Recovery
Enough Recharge to enjoy a small recharge bonus in Granite WITHOUT Hasten.
Hasten.
Conserve Power.
Slow Resistance
Soft-Capped on all Typed defenses (Save Psi). One small purple puts you in "tanking TB'ed Lord Recluse" range.
Downsides:
1: No damage-booster power (Build Up).
2: Expensive doesn't begin to describe it.
Can you show me a comparable build profile on a WP tank? Or one that's even defense capped?
Not being snarky here. Just that my build-fu is weak sometimes and I've yet to see a WP tank with numbers like you can get on a Stoner with a comparable build budget.
With WP, you cap lower on most defense. You cap lower on most resists. You have to invest enough in your defenses that you have to take fewer powers, build for stupid-recharge and spam fewer total attacks.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Lemme guess, just found the bug where you flip powers and have two armors active simultaneously?
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Originally Posted by Constant_Motion
edit: nm something wierd going on w/ mids
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Threw this together kind of haphazardly. Take it for what it's worth, but it's not all that difficult to come up with a WP Tanker build with enough survivability for 99% of the game's content.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
???
With this build, YES, there's a lot of mitigation for Granite's weaknesses (Primarily recharge). Decent Damage (Half the attacks are at ~90% augmentation, the other half are at 99%). Excellent Accuracy (equivalent to two L50 common IOs) Excellent Regen Excellent Recovery Enough Recharge to enjoy a small recharge bonus in Granite WITHOUT Hasten. Hasten. Conserve Power. Slow Resistance Soft-Capped on all Typed defenses (Save Psi). One small purple puts you in "tanking TB'ed Lord Recluse" range. Downsides: 1: No damage-booster power (Build Up). 2: Expensive doesn't begin to describe it. Can you show me a comparable build profile on a WP tank? Or one that's even defense capped? Not being snarky here. Just that my build-fu is weak sometimes and I've yet to see a WP tank with numbers like you can get on a Stoner with a comparable build budget. |
F/C DEF are only at 43%, but really, the number of attacks in this game which are typed solely as Fire or Cold is vanishingly small. S/L/E/N are much bigger priorities.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(9), Numna-Heal/Rchg(9)
Level 1: Jab -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 2: Fast Healing -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(11), Numna-Heal(11), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(15)
Level 4: Haymaker -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 6: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(42), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(42), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 8: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(46), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(48), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(48)
Level 12: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(A), P'Shift-EndMod(13), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(13), P'Shift-End%(15)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(43), Zephyr-ResKB(50)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(37), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 18: Mind Over Body -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-EndRdx(19), RctvArm-ResDam(19), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(21)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 22: Heightened Senses -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(33)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 26: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam(27), RctvArm-EndRdx(27), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(29)
Level 28: Rage -- Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(A), Rec'dRet-Pcptn(31), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(36)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(34)
Level 35: Strength of Will -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam(40), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(48)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(39), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(39), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), FrcFbk-Rechg%(40)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 44: Taunt -- Zinger-Taunt(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(45), Zinger-Acc/Rchg(45), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(45), Zinger-Taunt/Rng(46), Zinger-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Super Speed -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 49: Resurgence -- EndMod-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Code:
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Another note on this:
Quote:
(Emphasis mine.)| Not being snarky here. Just that my build-fu is weak sometimes and I've yet to see a WP tank with numbers like you can get on a Stoner with a comparable build budget. |
If you're comparing the ability of a WP to make huge gains in survivability through IOs to the ability of the Stoner to compensate for Granite's penalties through IOs -- then in my experience, your statement is exactly opposite to the market reality.
Global recharge bonuses tend to be more expensive than typed DEF bonuses, at least when you try to stack either one to truly impressive levels. Once you start talking about multiple LotGs and purple attack sets, you're talking multiple billions on the current market.
By contrast, while Kinetic Combat IOs are relatively low in supply and high in price, the last time I looked you weren't looking at more than about 20 million for the one or two rarer recipies in the set. Personally, I was able to snag three sets recently on my INV simply by placing multiple bids and waiting patiently; I paid no more than 3 million for a single recipe.
(With double XP weekend having just ended, though, I expect Kinetic Combats are very hard to come by, right now.)
None of the builds we typically discuss on these forums is exactly cheap, but some are a lot cheaper than others. Cost isn't often given much consideration in these discussions, and it probably should be.
Either way, while it's true that a WP build can never quite compete with an equally tricked out Granite in terms of (non-psi) survivability, it's also true that a Stone Tanker has to pay more to compensate for Granite's offensive penalties, and receives less relative benefit from doing so than does the WP who IOs for defense.
Both approaches have merit; for one thing, the Stoner who IOs for huge +recharge retains the option to drop Granite and play situational offensive juggernaut -- but I feel pretty comfortable in guessing that a larger number of players would rather keep the qualitative advantages of WP.
Unless, of course, they don't intend to IO heavily -- in which case each build's role is very much more distinct.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Wish I could view the build Hyperstrike. 
No mids on this PC at the moment.
I've never actually tried to build a soft capped Stone tank who manages to overcome the base -65% recharge and the -30% damage.
The problem is... just being able to overcome them puts you on base level with a WP tank (on the offensive side). From build experience across all sorts of blueside AT's I can definitely say its not easy to come up with >100% global recharge, soft capped defenses to all but psi and 30% damage buff. (Most soft capped WP builds I've run into seem to squeeze out around 30-60% global recharge and 10-15% +damage) Hopefully later tonight I can take a look at what you came up with
Check out this thread http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=143209
I posted a few builds in a few weeks ago for higher end WP .
I'd ask that you keep in mind the builds were meant to generally meet some stats that the OP of the thread was looking for and were not necessarily built with a mix of offense and defense in mind. (OP ran into a WP tank that boasted what seemed like some crazy survivability numbers but turned out to be quite feasible)
After watching that vid of Powerforge taking on and holding 10 AVs, I had to try it on my DA. Well.....was going pretty well, but the map was a wide open outdoor map, so finding them, much less rounding them up was a pain. After I got 4 - Tyrant, Siege, Malaise and Marauder, I ended up dieing due to not watching my health to hit DR while looking for the rest of em. Holding those 4 themselves was trivial. Will make my own version of this mish later and see how it works out. And yes, will get fraps running for the "screenshot or it didn't happen" crowd.
But tanking 4 AVs with little effort, on a "squishy" set no less, pretty much furthers my original point, limiting yourself to just stone or wp for end game is just stupid.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Quote:
More general, arguing wich is 'best' on the internet is already stupid.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
But tanking 4 AVs with little effort, on a "squishy" set no less, pretty much furthers my original point, limiting yourself to just stone or wp for end game is just stupid.
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50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Quote:
this this this!!! ^|
Originally Posted by kruunch
my opinion on the subject:
Granite tankers are for people who don't know how to tank (think of it as a tanker with training wheels). |
QFT
Post Comic book Fan Films that ROCK!
Fight my brute
Quote:
Thats rubbish. Someone who can grab and keep agro with such penalties go beyond the easy-pease mode of run-through-and-stand-still like ice set.|
Originally Posted by Chrome_Family
this this this!!! ^
QFT |
Granites dont need to worry for themselfs, they only have to look after the team.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Quote:
Because running Mudpots and putting recharge in Taunt is hard. |
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Thats rubbish. Someone who can grab and keep agro with such penalties go beyond the easy-pease mode of run-through-and-stand-still like ice set.
Granites dont need to worry for themselfs, they only have to look after the team. |
P.S. - Granite Tankers do the most standing around of any Tanker set ... although they're more of the waddle-through-and-stand-still type.
Just for the record, do you even have a stone tanker?
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Quote:
Quite simply, My stoner is built for recharge and movement, and the IO's completely negate the debuffs. He's SS, so Rage takes care of the -damage and he runs at about 24mph in granite, 18 in rooted which I only switch on when I'm having trouble, which is usually reserved for AV fights. I can do this because I actually have a plus 8% recharge increase in granite w/o taking Hasten at all, which alows me to drop and re-up rooted as often as I need. He's not soft capped, but he's close (about 37% all round) and he's pretty durable to boot, most of his resistances are between 70% - 90%. Even has a little bit of Psi resistance.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
This is true. I really haven't spent a lot of time working on Stone builds, but it seems unlikely that it will ever cover all the debuffs. Granite is -65% rech, -30% dmg, and -X% movement speed, not to mention it can never jump** or fly.
Even if it is possible for Stone to completely negate all of Granite's debuffs, WP isn't being stopped from increasing their rech (LotGs/Hasten) or movement speed (Sprint), either. I would be interested in seeing what people could do with a no influence spared IO build for Stone Armor. ** Unless you have 15+ Kins casting Inertial Reduction.  |
I do agree with an earlier post though, but I look at it like this: At the end of the day, rolling a stone tank and playing it will teach you more about tanking that any other build. Because the learning curve is so steep on a stoner in the early going, even so far as past getting Granite, you will improve as a tanker by leaps and bounds and learn better ways to tank. Bar none, for your money, the best "learning" tank. Not a tank on training wheels, mind you, but a tank that trains you to be a successful tanker.
"Iron defenses and a crappy attitude do not, a tanker, make."
Proud Leader and founder of The Gangbusters Super Group and The Madhouse Villain Group: Ask me about becoming a member!
Quote:
Yup ... in fact I've deleted 2 Granite Tankers. With the exception of Dark, I've played all of the primaries to L50 (still trying to work up motivation to roll a Dark Tanker :/).|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Just for the record, do you even have a stone tanker?
|
And I wasn't commenting on how good/bad the set was, just the type of people who seem to end up taking that set lately.
Kruunch, roll a DA, they are sexy.
Even with a speed/recharge build, you are limited in movement. TP just doesn't cut it.
Playing stone didn't teach me crap about tanking. It taught me how to use TP.
Now, can stone be fun, sure, why not? People have widely varying ideas about what is/is not fun.
Is stone the straight up "toughest" tanker out there. On a pure def/resistance bang for the buck, yeah.
The penalties are horrendous for that, and rage does not overcome the damage debuff. An /SS stoner still does less damage than a /SS of any other primary.
IOs can help make the movement and recharge manageable, but you still cant jump. Fast twitch style play is still not possible. TP still has a cast time.
What it really comes down to, is that all of the other primaries can hang with stone in end game content, some being almost as tough all around, especially when you take into account skill.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Quote:
I'm working my way around to it ... been busy with some Scrapper builds lately that've caught my "Ohhh shiney" eye.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Kruunch, roll a DA, they are sexy.
Even with a speed/recharge build, you are limited in movement. TP just doesn't cut it. Playing stone didn't teach me crap about tanking. It taught me how to use TP. Now, can stone be fun, sure, why not? People have widely varying ideas about what is/is not fun. Is stone the straight up "toughest" tanker out there. On a pure def/resistance bang for the buck, yeah. The penalties are horrendous for that, and rage does not overcome the damage debuff. An /SS stoner still does less damage than a /SS of any other primary. IOs can help make the movement and recharge manageable, but you still cant jump. Fast twitch style play is still not possible. TP still has a cast time. What it really comes down to, is that all of the other primaries can hang with stone in end game content, some being almost as tough all around, especially when you take into account skill. |
I agree about Stone .... for my own personal tastes I found Stone just so boring to play that deleting then was my most gratifying moment after making them. It's a great set from a pure tanking point of view ... just not necessary imo (if you're into power building) for this game.
Quote:
So basicly, preferences of the player.
|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
What it really comes down to, is that all of the other primaries can hang with stone in end game content, some being almost as tough all around, especially when you take into account skill.
|
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
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Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Quote:
This is pretty much how I feel about it. I wouldn't delete my stone tanker; she now counts as my second oldest level 50, after Heraclea. On the other hand, I rolled the stone tanker during the dark days of i5 and the GDN, mostly because I wanted to have a tanker in place that would be largely unaffected by them. After having taken a bit of a vacation from the game for a while after i6 and returning, finding the grass even less green over yonder, I no longer feel the need for a stone tanker that I felt when I made and levelled her.|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
I agree about Stone .... for my own personal tastes I found Stone just so boring to play that deleting then was my most gratifying moment after making them. It's a great set from a pure tanking point of view ... just not necessary imo (if you're into power building) for this game.
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If it were possible to retain human appearance while in Granite, I might dust her off and work on getting her some set bonuses. I've never run the STF with her; I'm not even sure I've run the ITF. Until then, she's with the ice tanker and the dark armor tanker: kept mostly for the sake of owning the complete set.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
Isn't everything?
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
So basicly, preferences of the player.
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Quote:
Kruunch I thought I remembered from the last stone armor thread how you were saying that you've only played a stone armor brute up to 50. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats apples and oranges.|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
Yup ... in fact I've deleted 2 Granite Tankers. With the exception of Dark, I've played all of the primaries to L50 (still trying to work up motivation to roll a Dark Tanker :/).
And I wasn't commenting on how good/bad the set was, just the type of people who seem to end up taking that set lately. |
As I've said earlier, if we judged by what experience level of people select which sets Inv/SS would be the worst set in the game by a landslide.
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Compromises are the exception.
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
Isn't everything?
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50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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Ewww lord no. The only Brutes I've played were SS/Inv and SS/WP and Elec/Elec (none to 50).|
Originally Posted by Alabaster12
Kruunch I thought I remembered from the last stone armor thread how you were saying that you've only played a stone armor brute up to 50. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats apples and oranges.
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Quote:
| As I've said earlier, if we judged by what experience level of people select which sets Inv/SS would be the worst set in the game by a landslide. |
Totally don't understand you here. If you are saying more new players choose Inv/SS then yes I agree. The difference is with Inv/SS there is no apparent overriding power so people have to go out of their way to learn what each power does and how it adds to that build.
With Stone Armor, most people are just told "get to L32 and get Granite, then you're god" and people seem to take this literally and then fail miserably for various reasons.
That's not to say I haven't seen plenty of bad Inv/SS builds, but there just seems to be a glut of new Stone Tankers lately (ala the MA system).
edit: nm something wierd going on w/ mids
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom